Fas42’s Stereo ‘Magic’

[fas42]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

That’s obvious, but it’s still a far cry from what you do, which is essentially mouse milk. Look, I have a master’s degree in EE and I wouldn’t dare to even deign to second guess the designers of even the cheapest Chinese tube or solid state amplifier. I can sit down with a pencil and paper and draw free-hand a circuit for either a tube or a solid state audio amp; work out the values based on tube or solid state component characteristics, build it and it would work. But I don’t harbor the least hope that it could compete in any way with a commercial product. I’m not a dedicated audio design engineer in the way that John Curl, Nelson Pass, or Luke Manley are. I know how an amp works well enough to design one, but not well enough to know what makes a high-end amp a cut above the norm.

 

It's not the circuit that matters, it's the presence of weaknesses in the overall chain - accept what you are given in terms of the design ideas, make the most of it - it's the exercise of working at the latter that creates the magic ... I've been doing this over and over again, with the latest being these current digital speakers ... at the moment, nicely warmed up, they are throwing up a very expansive soundstage - way, way better than the majority of high end rigs I've heard over the years. Why should they do that? ... Well, it's quite simple, they are doing a pretty decent job of getting out of the way of the recording; they are not imposing their signature on the tracks, to any major degree.

[AudioDoctor]

Part of more wishes you'd stop linking to my content in your attempts to make your point Frank...

[fas42]

1 hour ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

We all like what we like, that's why its called subjective.

 

Well, I can only agree ... George mentioned he liked the Hugo 2, and I looked up a couple of links - oh, dear:  https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/24/17273218/chord-hugo-2-review-dac-headphone-amplifier

 

Where's, The Truth? ... I guess it's subjective, 😁.

 

[fas42]

11 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

Part of more wishes you'd stop linking to my content in your attempts to make your point Frank...

 

Huh? What are you talking about ... ?

[AudioDoctor]

36 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Huh? What are you talking about ... ?

 

 

[fas42]

You do realise that the link is actually to a post by @beerandmusic ? Or do you claim that everyone's contribution to that thread is "your content"?

[fas42]

A nice little touch, just before ...playing a compilation of Classical Love tracks, disc ended with Nessun dorma, a solid operatic rendition - volume up, it delivered the big punch moments, on those last famous notes ... Bev exclaimed, "On that forum, tell those blokes there, they're idiots!!" ... 😉.

[AudioDoctor]

7 hours ago, fas42 said:

You do realise that the link is actually to a post by @beerandmusic ? Or do you claim that everyone's contribution to that thread is "your content"?

 

I get a notification saying you linked to my content. I want to make sure anyone reading this knows I don't support your crusade.

[fas42]

Still not sure what your issue is ... no-one else but you got that notification -  the way the forum software works, if you link to a post that's in a thread, which may be violently opposed to the POV of the originator of the thread - that's how it appears ... methinks you're a touch sensitive, here.

 

BTW, interesting you find the concept that people can thoroughly enjoy all sorts of recordings, in excellent value for money systems, disturbing ...

[gmgraves]

On 6/11/2020 at 8:20 PM, fas42 said:

 

It's not the circuit that matters, it's the presence of weaknesses in the overall chain - accept what you are given in terms of the design ideas, make the most of it - it's the exercise of working at the latter that creates the magic ... I've been doing this over and over again, with the latest being these current digital speakers ... at the moment, nicely warmed up, they are throwing up a very expansive soundstage - way, way better than the majority of high end rigs I've heard over the years. Why should they do that? ... Well, it's quite simple, they are doing a pretty decent job of getting out of the way of the recording; they are not imposing their signature on the tracks, to any major degree.

Unfortunately, in the real world, other than dressing cables to keep mains away from signal cables to minimize hum, and using some form of mains isolation, there is nothing outside of the components themselves that can do anything other than very tiny and subtle Improvements. Most signal paths are quite short. Turntable to preamp, preamp to power amp. Media player to preamp and preamp to power amp, and the path is even shorter if one is using an integrated amp. In that case there is just one interface between source and amplifier. I don’t know what you think you can do with such a simple interface, but whatever it is, if you think it’s significant, you are simply delusional.

 

[4est]

On 6/12/2020 at 2:31 AM, fas42 said:

A nice little touch, just before ...playing a compilation of Classical Love tracks, disc ended with Nessun dorma, a solid operatic rendition - volume up, it delivered the big punch moments, on those last famous notes ... Bev exclaimed, "On that forum, tell those blokes there, they're idiots!!" ... 😉.

She might think you are handsome as well, but that doesn't mean you actually are...

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Unfortunately, in the real world, other than dressing cables to keep mains away from signal cables to minimize hum, and using some form of mains isolation, there is nothing outside of the components themselves that can do anything other than very tiny and subtle Improvements. Most signal paths are quite short. Turntable to preamp, preamp to power amp. Media player to preamp and preamp to power amp, and the path is even shorter if one is using an integrated amp. In that case there is just one interface between source and amplifier. I don’t know what you think you can do with such a simple interface, but whatever it is, if you think it’s significant, you are simply delusional.

 

 

With every system, there will always be the weakest points - and it only takes one thing not quite right to bring the house of cards down, so to speak. If that single link has a problem, then that can be the difference between sounding like a hifi, or realistic. Currently using a basic, plastic optical cable to join source and the rest - that may be good enough, or it might not; there are higher quality Toslinks available, will trying one of these may a difference, or not? - that's the journey, to find that out ... whether something is significant is determined by any shortcomings in the design, not by whether someone thinks it is, or not.

 

Currently focusing on improving the mains waveform the rig sees - this has a major, very obvious impact on the SQ. They are the other leads in the equation, and turn out to be just as important as the obvious ones - because they also form an input to the circuitry.

[kumakuma]

On 6/11/2020 at 11:31 PM, fas42 said:

Bev exclaimed, "On that forum, tell those blokes there, they're idiots!!" ... 😉.

 

Tell her she's a saint. My wife would have left me years ago.

[gmgraves]

9 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

With every system, there will always be the weakest points - and it only takes one thing not quite right to bring the house of cards down, so to speak.

You keep saying that but the way you state it, it just isn’t so. If the weakest point is one’s DVD player, you replace it with a better one. If one’s preamp is proving deficient, again, you replace it and ditto for the power amp or speakers. It is a myth that soldering interconnects to their respective components makes a vast improvement (or any improvement, for that matter) in SQ. If it were so, then all-in-one components would perform rings around separates, and that would be what everyone would be buying. But they don’t perform rings around separates, and everyone isn’t buying them!

9 hours ago, fas42 said:

If that single link has a problem, then that can be the difference between sounding like a hifi, or realistic. Currently using a basic, plastic optical cable to join source and the rest - that may be good enough, or it might not; there are higher quality Toslinks available, will trying one of these may a difference, or not? - that's the journey, to find that out ... whether something is significant is determined by any shortcomings in the design, not by whether someone thinks it is, or not.

Frank, you seem to think it is, when it’s not. Take Toslink, for example. You’re playing with the optical cable when it’s not at all the weakest link in the chain. The optical encoder/decoders are the weakest links, and there’s nothing you can do about those.

9 hours ago, fas42 said:

Currently focusing on improving the mains waveform the rig sees - this has a major, very obvious impact on the SQ. They are the other leads in the equation, and turn out to be just as important as the obvious ones - because they also form an input to the circuitry.

Ridiculous. The mains waveform is one of the purest sine waves imaginable. Now they might have noise on them, but that’s not the waveform. Besides, the power supply turns the waveform into DC, and it’s the quality of the DC that’s important to the SQ, not the shape or quality of the mains.

[fas42]

42 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

You keep saying that but the way you state it, it just isn’t so. If the weakest point is one’s DVD player, you replace it with a better one. If one’s preamp is proving deficient, again, you replace it and ditto for the power amp or speakers. It is a myth that soldering interconnects to their respective components makes a vast improvement (or any improvement, for that matter) in SQ. If it were so, then all-in-one components would perform rings around separates, and that would be what everyone would be buying. But they don’t perform rings around separates, and everyone isn’t buying them!

 

Well, if you read of what I've done so far with the active speakers - that's exactly what I did! 😁 The original Blu-ray player was not that brilliant, with CDs - so I pulled an even older unit out the cupboard to get the job gone...

 

Overall, my philosophy is to see what some component is capable of - given half a chance. That's how one learns - trying to squeeze better performance out of something that is nominally not anything special.

 

All-in-ones solve one problem, and highly likely introduce others - swings and roundabouts. Normally with a single power supply, and the high sensitive circuitry has poor isolation from other sections; these days, they are a low cost option, usually; meaning that the design will have even more compromises.

 

42 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Frank, you seem to think it is, when it’s not. Take Toslink, for example. You’re playing with the optical cable when it’s not at all the weakest link in the chain. The optical encoder/decoders are the weakest links, and there’s nothing you can do about those.

Ridiculous. The mains waveform is one of the purest sine waves imaginable. Now they might have noise on them, but that’s not the waveform. Besides, the power supply turns the waveform into DC, and it’s the quality of the DC that’s important to the SQ, not the shape or quality of the mains.

 

The encoders may be a weak link - but if their performance can be improved by the standard of the connecting cable, why not use that as a low effort solution? Again, I aim to use the parts that come with the gear, until they prove to be too much of a bottleneck - then they get changed, provided that they are not central to the design.

 

Unfortunately, the noise, and variance of the mains is critical - these budget speakers are making this obvious, and I have spent weeks now playing in this area. And it's been this way with every rig I've tweaked over the years. Yes, it's the DC inside that ultimately determines what one gets - but how effective is the internal circuitry in shielding the quality of that DC, from anything happening in the AC ... surely you have read numerous accounts of audiophiles listening at certain times of the day, "when the power is better!".  To give an example, switching on an electric kettle in the kitchen, many, many 10's of metres away in terms of copper conductor length, blips the SQ down - and it stays down until the current draw is shut off.

[gmgraves]

On 6/11/2020 at 8:52 PM, fas42 said:

 

Well, I can only agree ... George mentioned he liked the Hugo 2, and I looked up a couple of links - oh, dear:  https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/24/17273218/chord-hugo-2-review-dac-headphone-amplifier

 

Where's, The Truth? ... I guess it's subjective, 😁.

 

Well, the headphone amp in the Hugo 2 is certainly not the best by any stretch of the imagination, but as a “portable” listening device, I wouldn’t expect it to be. I wonder if this reviewer would have the same opinion of the Hugo 2’s sound if he had listened to it on speakers, or a high-end headphone amp or a (best of all) a pair of Stax SR-009S phones driven by a Stax energizer/amp such as the SRM-700T.
Actually this reviewer has some good points. Chord’s styling scheme for their products is VERY quirky. The volume control is fiddly and hard to get a repeatable setting, the colored lights they use for other functions are hard to remember if you don’t have the manual handy when using the thing. But I stand by my belief that the Hugo 2’s DAC section is the best DAC for under $3k that I have ever heard, and it’s better by a long shot!

[gmgraves]

Never mind

[sandyk]

4 hours ago, fas42 said:

Yes, it's the DC inside that ultimately determines what one gets - but how effective is the internal circuitry in shielding the quality of that DC, from anything happening in the AC ... surely you have read numerous accounts of audiophiles listening at certain times of the day, "when the power is better!".  To give an example, switching on an electric kettle in the kitchen, many, many 10's of metres away in terms of copper conductor length, blips the SQ down - and it stays down until the current draw is shut off.

 

 Agreed, however , the electric Jug should only cause problems at switch on and switch off in some systems, NOT all the time it is in use.

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Well, if you read of what I've done so far with the active speakers - that's exactly what I did! 😁 The original Blu-ray player was not that brilliant, with CDs - so I pulled an even older unit out the cupboard to get the job gone...

 

That’s what everybody does, Frank. We might not go for an older unit; and most likely would buy new, but, when a component ain’t makin’ it you replace it. Nothing special about that.

Quote

 

Overall, my philosophy is to see what some component is capable of - given half a chance. That's how one learns - trying to squeeze better performance out of something that is nominally not anything special.
 

 

See, Frank, you’re doing it again. Please tell me how you “squeeze better performance out of something“ without either changing something internal to the component or replacing it entirely!? And don’t gimme that cock-and-bull story of yours about soldering I/O cables either. That might make a slight sonic difference if we’re daisy-chaining a dozen components together, but with one or two interfaces, that does nothing. You can’t measure it and you certainly can’t hear it.

Quote

 

All-in-ones solve one problem, and highly likely introduce others - swings and roundabouts. Normally with a single power supply, and the high sensitive circuitry has poor isolation from other sections; these days, they are a low cost option, usually; meaning that the design will have even more compromises.

Bullshit. What you say might have validity with a cheap $300 integrated or a receiver, but if you’re talking about a Mark Levinson or a Pass integrated (to name a couple) those things don’t apply (get your audio mind out of the bargain basement, Frank). Some integrated amps are quite costly. For instance the Mark Levinson #5885 is US$8500. 
I have a Harman Kardon integrated and it has completely separate power supplies for each channel, each with it’s own huge toroidal transformer. The power supplies for the front end are also separate for each channel but they do share the transformer with their respective power amp section, just different windings. This HK900 has 150 Watts/channel and is one of the best sounding amps I’ve ever heard. My only point was that doing away with interconnect cables completely, as you aim to do by soldering them from one component to another, does not and can not improve the sound.

Quote

 

 

The encoders may be a weak link - but if their performance can be improved by the standard of the connecting cable, why not use that as a low effort solution? Again, I aim to use the parts that come with the gear, until they prove to be too much of a bottleneck - then they get changed, provided that they are not central to the design.

 

OK, how do you choose a Toslink cable, and how do you know one is better than another? What do you measure? What are the specs for transmissivity of optical signals. And if the optical transducers on each end are the limiting factor ( and in the Toslink spec, they are), what good does better transmissivity of the interconnect media do? You could go to glass, I suppose, but since nobody (AFAIK) makes glass fiber cables terminated in Toslink connections, that would be hard to do, wouldn’t it?

Quote

 

Unfortunately, the noise, and variance of the mains is critical - these budget speakers are making this obvious, and I have spent weeks now playing in this area. And it's been this way with every rig I've tweaked over the years. Yes, it's the DC inside that ultimately determines what one gets - but how effective is the internal circuitry in shielding the quality of that DC, from anything happening in the AC ... surely you have read numerous accounts of audiophiles listening at certain times of the day, "when the power is better!".  To give an example, switching on an electric kettle in the kitchen, many, many 10's of metres away in terms of copper conductor length, blips the SQ down - and it stays down until the current draw is shut off.

 

You have a new oscilloscope (I’m assuming that you’ve received it by now), look at the DC. Do you detect any 50 or 100 Hz ripple on it? You will be able to see it clearly if there is. Good power supplies should show none and that will be reflected in the unit’s signal-to-noise figures. Cheap power supplies might show a bit of ripple. But that can be avoided by not buying cheap, mass market junk.

 

[fas42]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

 Agreed, however , the electric Jug should only cause problems at switch on and switch off in some systems, NOT all the time it is in use.

 

Unfortunately, it does ... George, you'll be pleased to know that I now have the little yellow box, the battery scope - which is nifty; I haven't tried it in anger yet - but I shall make an effort to see whether I can see anything, anything happening on the power conductors, while it's sucking those big amps ...

 

44 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

See, Frank, you’re doing it again. Please tell me how you “squeeze better performance out of something“ without either changing something internal to the component or replacing it entirely!? And don’t gimme that cock-and-bull story of yours about soldering I/O cables either. That might make a slight sonic difference if we’re daisy-chaining a dozen components together, but with one or two interfaces, that does nothing. You can’t measure it and you certainly can’t hear it.

 

Couple of simple things: change the quality of the mains going in; vary how the case, the chassis is stabilised or damped.

 

You probably will find it hard to measure; but once a system is working to a certain 'transparency', then it's trivially easy to hear. Typical changes are the sparkle, the transient impact, how far away from being dull and uninteresting to listen to the sound is.

 

Quote

Bullshit. What you say might have validity with a cheap $300 integrated or a receiver, but if you’re talking about a Mark Levinson or a Pass integrated (to name a couple) those things don’t apply (get your audio mind out of the bargain basement, Frank). Some integrated amps are quite costly. For instance the Mark Levinson #5885 is US$8500. 

 

Of course there are exceptions - I'm talking about the normal hierarchy in the audio scene.

 

Quote

I have a Harman Kardon integrated and it has completely separate power supplies for each channel, each with it’s own huge toroidal transformer. The power supplies for the front end are also separate for each channel but they do share the transformer with their respective power amp section, just different windings. This HK900 has 150 Watts/channel and is one of the best sounding amps I’ve ever heard. My only point was that doing away with interconnect cables completely, as you aim to do by soldering them from one component to another, does not and can not improve the sound.

 

The reason I soldered my first set of interconnects into place was that in spite of doing everything I was aware of at the time to resolve the SQ issues otherwise, I had no success. The solution was obvious ... and did the job, 😉.

 

Quote

 

OK, how do you choose a Toslink cable, and how do you know one is better than another? What do you measure? What are the specs for transmissivity of optical signals. And if the optical transducers on each end are the limiting factor ( and in the Toslink spec, they are), what good does better transmissivity of the interconnect media do? You could go to glass, I suppose, but since nobody (AFAIK) makes glass fiber cables terminated in Toslink connections, that would be hard to do, wouldn’t it?

 

Indeed one can, it appears - this was the first link I looked up, https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7211

 

Quote

 

You have a new oscilloscope (I’m assuming that you’ve received it by now), look at the DC. Do you detect any 50 or 100 Hz ripple on it? You will be able to see it clearly if there is. Good power supplies should show none and that will be reflected in the unit’s signal-to-noise figures. Cheap power supplies might show a bit of ripple. But that can be avoided by not buying cheap, mass market junk.

 

 

See above, 😁 ... not worried about ripple; far more concerned with noise getting through. The point about these budget speakers is that I don't want to touch the internals any more than I need to - if I can resolve the interference externally, I'll be much happier.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

Agreed, however , the electric Jug should only cause problems at switch on and switch off in some systems, NOT all the time it is in use.

 

Alex, You misunderstood Frank. He was saying that there is no such thing as bad electric jugs. You just have to tune them right. Rumor has it that Frank, with a little tweaking, has repurposed a couple of jugs as loudspeakers 🙄 Not the expensive kind, mind !😁

[fas42]

Suitable for music like this, perhaps ...

 

 

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Unfortunately, it does ... George, you'll be pleased to know that I now have the little yellow box, the battery scope - which is nifty; I haven't tried it in anger yet - but I shall make an effort to see whether I can see anything, anything happening on the power conductors, while it's sucking those big amps ...

 

 

Couple of simple things: change the quality of the mains going in; vary how the case, the chassis is stabilised or damped.

Everybody does that, Frank. I use a huge 30 Ampere hospital grade 120V to 120V isolation transformer/filter. Most of the time, there is no audible difference, and even when there is, the audible difference is TINY.

Quote

 

You probably will find it hard to measure; but once a system is working to a certain 'transparency', then it's trivially easy to hear. Typical changes are the sparkle, the transient impact, how far away from being dull and uninteresting to listen to the sound is.
 

This is non-information (again). Sounds like your imagination is working overtime again, Frank.

Quote

Of course there are exceptions - I'm talking about the normal hierarchy in the audio scene.

Right!

Quote

The reason I soldered my first set of interconnects into place was that in spite of doing everything I was aware of at the time to resolve the SQ issues otherwise, I had no success. The solution was obvious ... and did the job, 😉.

Yeah, it did the job.... on your mind!

Quote

Indeed one can, it appears - this was the first link I looked up, https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7211

See above, 😁 ... not worried about ripple; far more concerned with noise getting through. The point about these budget speakers is that I don't want to touch the internals any more than I need to - if I can resolve the interference externally, I'll be much happier.

Then clean up your mains. Use big-iron isolation transformers or multi-pole filters. I’m under the impression that you live in a rural area. If so, your mains should be quite clean. Is Australian mains service somehow deficient? It shouldn’t be.

As to the question of glass Toslink, I didn’t know that glass Toslink cables even existed. Glass optical is another totally different protocol. Since the transducers are the limiting factor here (that’s why Toslink optical digital is limited to 96 KHz), I find it difficult to believe that glass cable (the advantage of which is greater bandwidth (wasted on Toslink) and lower loss over distance (also wasted on Toslink) would make any audible difference.

[fas42]

4 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Everybody does that, Frank. I use a huge 30 Ampere hospital grade 120V to 120V isolation transformer/filter. Most of the time, there is no audible difference, and even when there is, the audible difference is TINY.

 

For you it's TINY; for others it's not - you live in your world; others will live in theirs. Your conclusions are no arbiter for what actually can occur.

 

4 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

This is non-information (again). Sounds like your imagination is working overtime again, Frank.

 

Sounds like you don't the ability to hear, George.

 

4 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Yeah, it did the job.... on your mind!

 

Back in your favourite position of The Knower of All Truth, eh, George?

 

4 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Then clean up your mains. Use big-iron isolation transformers or multi-pole filters. I’m under the impression that you live in a rural area. If so, your mains should be quite clean. Is Australian mains service somehow deficient? It shouldn’t be.

 

The problem is noise generated within the house, by all the bits and pieces that need to be plugged in - for serious listening, I have always shut the house down; as does the friend up the road. But I reckon that I need to move beyond those workarounds. You see, the point is to not spend 10 times the cost of the rig, just to sort this one problem - smart filtering will do it, but I haven't worked out a definitive solution, yet.

[gmgraves]

52 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

For you it's TINY; for others it's not - you live in your world; others will live in theirs. Your conclusions are no arbiter for what actually can occur.

 

While you are right, it seems that more people here find my conclusions much more realistic than yours. 

52 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

 

Sounds like you don't the ability to hear, George.
 

I don’t have the ability to fool myself into thinking that I hear what isn’t really there

52 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

 

Back in your favourite position of The Knower of All Truth, eh, George?
 

I know what’s possible and what isn’t. That’s for sure Frank. And I don’t write literally thousands of posts in all forums stating the same ridiculous assertions over and over again trying to convince people that I’m not delusional. But you do.

52 minutes ago, fas42 said:

The problem is noise generated within the house, by all the bits and pieces that need to be plugged in - for serious listening, I have always shut the house down; as does the friend up the road. But I reckon that I need to move beyond those workarounds. You see, the point is to not spend 10 times the cost of the rig, just to sort this one problem - smart filtering will do it, but I haven't worked out a definitive solution, yet.

Perfectly adequate isolation transformers are fairly cheap (at least here in the US). Admittedly, mine is probably overkill, but then, I got it really cheap. If you buy the commercially available ones you’d likely need several because the affordable one aren’t more than a few Amps and don’t weigh 70 pounds (~30 kilos)!