Fas42’s Stereo ‘Magic’

[fas42]

I feel for John ...

 

He has got himself into a bad place - if one evolves one's listening setup to the point where only 1 in 10 classical recordings are listenable to, then it's a sorry situation ... I believe he has completely confused two scenarios that occur in the world of audio - a recording can be mastered in such a way that it provokes conventional playback systems to be very unpleasant to listen to, is the first scenario; the second is that many system are not evolved to the point where recordings of any "quality" can be fully enjoyed, where all the virtues of the captured music can be fully appreciated, while all the 'negatives' are subjectively reduced in impact to the point where they "disappear". The refinement of a playback chain to the second situation means that not a single skerrick of what matters - the musical performance - is lost; nothing is masked or discarded - you "hear more" of what was happening at the time of the recording than ever before; and it's all the good stuff - none of the bad.

[fas42]

Just came across this post, https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1131569#msg1131569, comparing two regarded class D solutions, nCore and ClassDAudio, in amplifier designs of this class,

 

In particular,

 

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First off, the good news. These (nCore) are very fast, extremely detailed amps. They gripped my speakers with an iron first, like no other amps have before. The bass control and slam was jaw dropping. We were hearing detail from well known recordings that we hadn’t heard before. Both vinyl and digital was very punchy and dynamic. Vocals in particular were very natural and clean sounding.

We were all impressed. We then went back to my SDS 258 (ClassDAudio) running full range and it was interesting to hear the reactions. Some of the comments were “darker and more musical, not as bright, deeper soundstage, not as detailed, warmer tonality.” Indeed the soundstage with the ncores was smashed flat up across the front of the speakers. It was wider but much shallower than with the classDAudio and in our laps. Another comment was that the ncores are tipped up. In my system, bright albums were unbearably so with the ncores. I honestly couldn’t listen to Alison Krauss without turning the volume down considerably.

 

Two sides of the coin, eh? Which version of the recording, as a subjective experience, is more "correct"?? 😉 Some people think that it's one or the other, you can't get both listening experience goodies combined ... well, it turns out this is not true - you can get the detail and slam, and the warmth and soundstage ... but it may not be so straightforward to achieve, that's all.

 

As always, implementation will determine final results - and, this post was back in 2012; current gear is highly likely to be better sorted, and differences may not be so dramatic

[fas42]

Someone just mentioned these being dream speakers,

 

 

A perfect example of what happens when high end components are thrown together, with no extra care taken - and it sounds like, a "hifi" rig ... miles from conveying the actual sound of the recording - all that money, wasted, so to speak ...

 

[fas42]

I'm pleased. 35 years ago, audio was a mess ... every rig did so much damage to what was on the recording; the most expensive, ambitious ones were as bad as those in the midfi range, except of course the damage was of a different type. It was close to impossible to find a setup which delivered the inherent sense of what was recorded - you were always listening to, "hifi". ... But things have changed ... finally.

 

I'm saying this because of what I'm finding with the "ridiculously cheap" digital active speakers I just acquired - I keep being impressed by how much they get right - the recordings deliver very, very close to what I was hearing 3 decades ago on my optimised, pricey system; with all tweaks so far confined to aspects external to the boxes.

 

Where are they lacking still? The ultimate "sweetness", resolution of the finest detail, complete invisibility; there are still recordings where Bev and I look at each other, and say, "Nope ...". And I haven't started to investigate yet how they behave when I push the throttle full to the floor; first, get the best behaviour at modest sound levels. But it's promising ... no trouble, say, conveying the sense of very deep, thunderous bass notes happening - Bev was asking, what's that sound like some heavy machinery working in the distance, that you feel rather than hear ... ummm, it's on the recording, 😁 ... this was a meditation CD, full of very, very slow bass beats.

[fas42]

Noting George's discovery that Apogee speakers, some decades ago, were very sensitive, https://www.stereophile.com/content/apogee-duetta-ii-loudspeaker-george-graves, to cables, and amplifiers ... welcome to the world I live in! He was experiencing this about the same time I was getting good sounds from my first CD rig - his comments about how the SQ could evaporate if everything was not exactly as it needed to be mirrors what I found ... the closer the system is to stepping over into the region where the real listening magic switches on, the fussier one has to be - and this has almost nothing to do with the speaker being used! 😜

 

Current cheap active speakers Yet Again demonstrate the need for absolute attention to detail, on the outside, to maximise performance - for example, the requirement to dress mains cables very carefully - get one thing wrong, and the quality drops off markedly ... the difference between being engaged with the music, versus wanting to change to another CD, because you're not getting a buzz from what you're hearing.

[fas42]

Just had a look at

 

and noted this comment,

 

Quote

These headphones have made me believe there is magic in every recording. It just has to be extracted using the right tools / components

 

Gosh, I wonder who else says this  ... 😜. Of course, they must be distorting the recordings to achieve this - as most are happy to tell you, there are plenty of bad recordings out there, and any decent rig will always point this out, 🤣.

 

Welcome to the club, Chris 🙂.

 

[fas42]

I probably have come across them before, but I just revisited what the Wadax products are doing in the uber expensive price range - good example of OTT engineering to make sure you get it right - and which delivers.

 

This is a solid recent example of what they are capable of, showing good immersive qualities,

 

 

[fas42]

Noting this post,

 

For me a classic example of how audio people see everything back to front - the rig is the master, and the poor recording is slave to its verdict on whether a recording is worth listening to ... but, the audio world becomes a vastly more interesting place when you turn that on its head - is my system good enough to bring out fully what's on the recording, every time? Turns out that all those "bland" recordings are actually very engaging, and full of Easter eggs of interesting sounds - to "make things worse", it's the "audiophile" tracks that become rather threadbare, because everything was reduced to the minimum to make sure absolutely nothing would offend the listener, 😜.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

12 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Noting this post,

 

For me a classic example of how audio people see everything back to front - the rig is the master, and the poor recording is slave to its verdict on whether a recording is worth listening to ... but, the audio world becomes a vastly more interesting place when you turn that on its head - is my system good enough to bring out fully what's on the recording, every time? Turns out that all those "bland" recordings are actually very engaging, and full of Easter eggs of interesting sounds - to "make things worse", it's the "audiophile" tracks that become rather threadbare, because everything was reduced to the minimum to make sure absolutely nothing would offend the listener, 😜.

 

I can’t understand what you mean by this post. Can you explain it for people like me who are a bit slow?

[fas42]

If you want slow, you should see how long it takes me to get some things done these days, 🤪!

 

Okay, I was merely pointing out that most people judge a recording by how it sounds on their own setup; as opposed to thinking, how good a job does this rig do in presenting what's on the recording? A good example is my audio friend down the road, who had lots of recordings which he thought little of when he first got them, many years ago - he now plays them, and says, Wow! ... His system has evolved to the point where he can really appreciate what was going on at the time of the recording - they make far better sense now.

 

For myself, it's a set of CDs full of "ultra bland" mediation music - single, super slow synthesizer notes that last forever - can there be anything more boring than this? Turns out that buried deep, deep in the soundscape, way, way back in the distance, and extremely quiet, are all sorts of fascinating, squirreling, goings on - 99% of people will never hear this, because the resolution of the system used won't be up to it.

[Allan F]

On 5/6/2020 at 3:39 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

I can’t understand what you mean by this post. Can you explain it for people like me who are a bit slow?

 

It's not that complicated, Chris. It's somewhat analogous to the observations of Alfred E. Neuman, e.g."It's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide".

[fas42]

Some thoughts on why those RAAL headphones do such a good job ... is it because the headphones in themselves are absolutely brilliant - or is it something else? Well, it's the "something else" ... 😉.

 

A key thing they have got going for them is that they are ribbon drivers - that means there is no conventional suspension with stiction issues; they will sound close to their best from the moment you start listening - no conditioning period.

 

But the really important factor is their very, very low impedance - this is what sets the scene for the, ummm, magic ...

 

Because the load to the driving electronics is ridiculously low, a conventional headphone amplifier is a non-starter - what is required is a full blown speaker amplifier, which then effectively becomes a current amplifier; its outputs are essentially short circuited by the extremely low impedance of the ribbons. So, how come the amplifier doesn't blow up? Well, the user doesn't want his ears assaulted by the ribbons literally frying themselves, so the gain is kept very low - the voltage swings across the inputs to the headphones are tiny ... it's all about the varying current!

 

This means that the amplifier is always working in class A mode; in the very best area of its operating range - where its behaviour is extremely linear; the voltage excursions are tiny, compared to what it's capable of swinging. What it does have to do, though, is pump out lots of current - but it has a beefy power supply, which is quite capable of doing this.

 

Class A, extremely linear and small voltage excursions - sounds like a recipe for very low distortion? ... You got it!! IOW, the secret of the headphones is that they demand an amplifier which then operates in a fashion which is absolutely optimum for the electronics to do the best possible job. That is, the magic is really that of the amplifier, which is working way down in an area of complete comfort, compared to what it was engineered to handle.

 

Could I ruin the magic of those headphones? Very, very easy - just insert, say, a high power handling 6 ohm resistor in series with the headphones input; this then turns what the amplifier sees at its outputs into a conventional speaker; the load that it was designed to drive. And then turn up the volume to hear the headphones as per normal - the sound won't be ruined, it will sound as good as that particular amplifier does with conventional speakers ... but the specialness that those headphones are capable of delivering will be gone.

 

So, the real magic of the RAALs is that they force one to use the reproducing chain electronics in a somewhat unusual way - a way where transparency to the source recording is higher than normal.

[The Computer Audiophile]

12 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Could I ruin the magic of those headphones? Very, very easy - just insert, say, a high power handling 6 ohm resistor in series with the headphones input

That makes no sense. Why would you do that? Stick a pencil in your tweeter. Bet it sounds bad. 
 

The RAALs sound fabulous with direct drive amps too :~)

 

Can you get a pair to test?

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Frank, sorry if I was a bit terse in my reply. The global situation is really getting to me :~(

 

Your post is a good one that I’d love to explore further. 

[fas42]

No worries, Chris 😉 .. I'm very intrigued about these RAAL transducers doing such a marvellous job - and started thinking about why it was so ... and laid out my thoughts on the matter. The plus is that if one truly understands what's going on, then that helps with the next stage of evolving audio systems, in general ... 👍.

[Kimo]

6 minutes ago, fas42 said:

No worries, Chris 😉 .. I'm very intrigued about these RAAL transducers doing such a marvellous job - and started thinking about why it was so ... and laid out my thoughts on the matter. The plus is that if one truly understands what's going on, then that helps with the next stage of evolving audio systems, in general ... 👍.

 

I have gotten very used to the Raal sound via the tweeters in my monitors.  I have never been partial to most metal domes, and now, after living with the Raals for several years, don't think I would be willing to deal with them at all.   Might still be a horn or soft dome that fits the bill.

 

If I had any need for more headphone listening, I would certainly audition the Raals.  I am curious as to how they compare.

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

28 minutes ago, fas42 said:

No worries, Chris 😉 .. I'm very intrigued about these RAAL transducers doing such a marvellous job - and started thinking about why it was so ... and laid out my thoughts on the matter. The plus is that if one truly understands what's going on, then that helps with the next stage of evolving audio systems, in general ... 👍.

Thanks for your understanding Frank. 
 

You’re absolutely right in that one must understand what’s going on to evolve. 

[opus101]

9 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Because the load to the driving electronics is ridiculously low, a conventional headphone amplifier is a non-starter - what is required is a full blown speaker amplifier, which then effectively becomes a current amplifier; its outputs are essentially short circuited by the extremely low impedance of the ribbons.

 

Based on my reading of the review of these on 6moons, I think this is in error. Yes the speaker amp becomes a current source in effect but via some series resistance which is supplied with the headphones. Its those series resistors that turn the speaker amp (voltage output) into a current amp. But the voltage amp still sees a typical speaker load (I forget the value of those resistors, maybe 6ohms?).

 

It therefore follows that subsequent comments about the amp always being  'in classA' don't logically follow. Nor does your suggested way to 'ruin' the sound - ironically that series R is already in circuit in the standard configuration. I understand Schiit have figured out a different way to drive these Raals with some custom electronics, obviating the need for the series Rs.

[fas42]

Spot on, Richard! For some reason I didn't register the bit in the specs about the series Ribbon/Amplifier Interface - which is in fact 6 ohms; what caught my eye was the 0.2 ohm impedance of the headphones themselves - and that's what I was running with.

 

But I'm still curious about what the voltage swings in a typical listening session would be - the sensitivity says, 91dB/1W - how should one interpret that?  Obviously not a 1 metre rating, with the diaphragms right next to the ear - and is that 1 watt for the combined 6 plus 0.2 ohm loading? Or just the 0.2 impedance? if the latter then that series resistor is going to get mighty hot ...

[fas42]

Okay, checked out what the 6moons review had to say ... and indeed the amplifier power is dumped into the waste bin - the interface soaks up essentially all the power, producing zero sound - just a tiny bit is actually used within the headphones ... an example of ultimate inefficiency!

 

Which means we are back to the headphones being the source of the magic, after all - the amplifier will indeed go into class AB; and if that is poorly executed then you'll hear it ... the saving grace is that the load is a very well behaved resistance, and that should allow the amplifier to behave better than it may with typical speaker loads.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Now I need to power up the Pass Labs XA160 mono-blocks that are only pure class A :~)

[fas42]

Always pleased to come across a company that gets the quality right - this is one I hadn't heard of, and the commentary says that it ticks all the boxes, https://headmania.org/2014/04/02/rockna-wavedream-dac-review/.

[fas42]

Rather nifty review post which encapsulates my message,

 

 

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When a recorded performance truly comes alive, it draws me in the same way I am drawn to an amateur performance in a coffee shop or a subway. This sense of reality is difficult to describe, but it is only loosely correlated to what I think of as “typical” measures of distortion or tonal balance. When I am walking by a coffee shop, I can tell if there is live music being played inside (vs recorded music). Even with all the traffic noise and going through walls and glass, I can somehow tell it is real people with real instruments even from the street, and I am attracted to it and want to listen.

 

This has been mentioned over and over again, for decades - conventional audio playback always "holds something back"; and this is the challenge that recording replay has to overcome.
 

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That has nothing to do with our normal measures of tonal balance and noise floor or sound stage or imaging clarity or being in the sweet spot. The music coming from inside the coffee shop sounds like crap (by any normal audiophile measures), but it still sounds (and is) real. Somehow, our brains know how to deal with the natural distortion of real noises that are going through walls and barriers and overcome background noises, and to focus on the "real". When that “real” clicks in, for me it is a fairly abrupt transition, and my experience of music steps up to a completely new (and intoxicating) level.

 

Yes, it's the "real" clicking in - note the use of the phrase, "a fairly abrupt transition" ... that rig I had 35 years ago, with complete predictability, could make the changeover flip - and just as predictably, lose it ... 😧.

 

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The end result is an experience that is holographic, astonishingly quick and controlled, and extraordinarily immersive. The level of transparency and reality is intoxicating, and remarkably revealing of everything in the chain: any weakness or system stumble takes away from that sense of reality. How to preserve as much of that sense of “real” as possible? How to get more? With my analog and digital-to-analog system anchors in place, my attention shifted to the digital side

 

So true ... the great dilemma ...

 

What's very positive to see is that more and more people are playing in this area - the components are now good enough in raw form to do the job, albeit they are very expensive, usually.

 

The good news for those who "wish to fiddle" is that remarkably low cost items, especially these days, are capable of delivering this sort of performance - the trade off is that one has to be prepared to do the experimenting, and most importantly, understand the feedback that the system gives as one makes changes, in terms of what one hears in the SQ variation.

[fas42]

Again this thread demonstrates a very useful principle ... simplicity,

 

 

An absolute minimum of circuitry occurs in the analogue area - the DAC output stage directly drives the speakers - whoa !! ... So, we have reduced the amount of electronics where "bad things can happen" to about as low as it can go ... and ray-dude now reaps the rewards ...

 

Nice method ... extreme, but makes sense - if one is not in a place where one can keep refining a more conventional approach, to achieve these sorts of levels of performance - like I do - then this is an excellent alternative.
 

[fas42]

The reaction of David, @Audiophile Neuroscience, here,

is what I've seen repeated over and over again, in person, and in forums ... there is an absolute determination to believe that an assembled, "high end", rig is the arbiter of the quality of what's possible - and the relatively poor performance of just about every ambitious setup I come across is "proof" of what that then results in: very poor value for money in terms of what is extracted, musically, from the vast archive of recordings that exists, out there.

 

Will this ever change? Hmmm ... but, eventually, almost certainly - a new generation of music replay enthusiasts will form, who don't hang onto old ideas - they will be willing to try new approaches, and reap the benefits ... time, the great miracle worker, will perform its magic ... again, 😉.