Fas42’s Stereo ‘Magic’

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

Just rereading the, what was intended to be read as a repeat of that in the other thread, OP and noted this bit,

 

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George is frustrated, and asks why I keep repeating my "message" - well, I'll stop doing it when I go to an audio show and have the vast majority of ambitious setups perform the 3D soundstage trick ... that means the manufacturers have learnt enough to get the engineering right in the first place, and not expect the consumers to jump through endless hoops, after purchase, to sort out that which has been left undone

Doesn’t it bother you, that your message falls on deaf and often belligerent ears?

[fas42]

And right on cue ... this post, by @barrows could have been written by me,

 

 

The differences only lie in that barrows says "bad recordings do exist" - and this is something that I would also have stated, many years ago. What people don't wish to take on board is that there are multiple means for reaching the destination of hearing "what's on the recording" - the underlying fact is that compromises in the playback chain are not necessary for achieving satisfying listening.

 

[fas42]

4 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Doesn’t it bother you, that your message falls on deaf and often belligerent ears?

 

It bothers me when I walk into a room where there is a supposedly high end system, which is making awful noises when playing recordings I know well  - like it would bother me if I got into a current Alfa Romeo, and it drove like a '60s Chevrolet. The first requirement for something with a bit of prestige is for it to be reasonably competent at what its function is - and it annoys that this seems to be taking so long to eventuate.

[kumakuma]

6 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

It bothers me when I walk into a room where there is a supposedly high end system, which is making awful noises when playing recordings I know well  - like it would bother me if I got into a current Alfa Romeo, and it drove like a '60s Chevrolet. The first requirement for something with a bit of prestige is for it to be reasonably competent at what its function is - and it annoys that this seems to be taking so long to eventuate.

 

Why are you making your problem, our problem?

 

Isn't it obvious by now that you are the only one who believes this to be a problem?

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

33 minutes ago, fas42 said:

It bothers me when I walk into a room where there is a supposedly high end system, which is making awful noises when playing recordings I know well 

 

Don't walk into the room, or in the alternative, find more important things to be bothered by....aka get a life.

[kumakuma]

6 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Don't walk into the room, or in the alternative find more important things to be bothered by....aka get a life.

 

Spamming the shit out this forum appears to be his life, unfortunately...

 

It's ironic that while frequently whinging that his lack of energy prevents him from getting his kit into shape, he somehow finds the energy to post to this forum dozens of times each day.

[fas42]

11 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Spamming the shit out this forum appears to be his life, unfortunately...

 

It's ironic that while frequently whinging that his lack of energy prevents him from getting his kit into shape, he somehow finds the energy to post to this forum dozens of times each day.

 

I take it that that you haven't noticed that I only talk on 2 threads now, both of which are "mine" - only exception is if someone mentions a technical issue, where I feel I can make some contribution.

 

That is, you can safely ignore me, if you follow some simple rules, 😉.

 

Interesting that you can't conceive that a loss of energy can manifest in various ways - and that the means to offset that "issue" may vary between individuals ... I find that I have to do things in short bursts; any sustained focus on anything - and that can be at the level of weeding the lawn - may "overload" me. ... The game I play, each day, is to combine various activities, bounce from one to the other, until things get done ...

[The Computer Audiophile]

One of the magic threads is enough for now. I’ve merged both of them. 

[kumakuma]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

I take it that that you haven't noticed that I only talk on 2 threads now, both of which are "mine" - only exception is if someone mentions a technical issue, where I feel I can make some contribution.

 

 

I had not noticed this. Thank you.

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

It bothers me when I walk into a room where there is a supposedly high end system, which is making awful noises when playing recordings I know well  - like it would bother me if I got into a current Alfa Romeo, and it drove like a '60s Chevrolet. The first requirement for something with a bit of prestige is for it to be reasonably competent at what its function is - and it annoys that this seems to be taking so long to eventuate.

It’s been years since I‘ve heard a system that wasn’t at least competent! But since I don’t know what your definition of “competent” is, I have no way of responding. The problem is that apparently, you find an inexpensive mid-Fi amp driving a pair of 4-6 inch Japanese boom-box speakers in their original plastic ghetto-blaster cabinet to be your definition of component, while megabuck systems are not. Based on what you have written, I’d say that word “competent” is defined differently by you and me.

 

And again, the question is does it not bother you that your posts are not taken seriously here?

[fas42]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

I take it that that you haven't noticed that I only talk on 2 threads now, both of which are "mine" - only exception is if someone mentions a technical issue, where I feel I can make some contribution.

 

With the update that one is 'owned' by @Blackmorec , 😉 ...

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

a loss of energy can manifest in various ways - and that the means to offset that "issue" may vary between individuals ... I find that I have to do things in short bursts; any sustained focus on anything - and that can be at the level of weeding the lawn - may "overload" me. ... The game I play, each day, is to combine various activities, bounce from one to the other, until things get done ...

 

Chronic fatigue is a real problem for many people. I agree it can manifest in both physical as well as neurocognitive ways (like focus, concentration, memory, distractability etc). I also agree that pacing and modifying tasks is useful and whether applied to weeding...or working on audio gear.

 

As observed and discussed with colleagues, obsessive and perfectionistic personality traits appears to be a risk factor for some fatigue states. I would wager than many members here (self included) have theses traits to some extent. They are a very useful and successful strategy for processionals or any high achiever when applied externally but can be dynamite when applied internally.

 

Maybe we should all listen to more music and analyze it less.

 

[wdw]

9 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

With the update that one is 'owned' by @Blackmorec , 😉 ...

 

Pleesseee....!

 

I cannot believe you get away with this......

[fas42]

26 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

It’s been years since I‘ve heard a system that wasn’t at least competent! But since I don’t know what your definition of “competent” is, I have no way of responding. The problem is that apparently, you find an inexpensive mid-Fi amp driving a pair of 4-6 inch Japanese boom-box speakers in their original plastic ghetto-blaster cabinet to be your definition of component, while megabuck systems are not. Based on what you have written, I’d say that word “competent” is defined differently by you and me.

 

And again, the question is does it not bother you that your posts are not taken seriously here?

 

Competent at the first level means that the system is not producing obvious, audible distortion - I have detailed many albums, and tracks, over many posts, that I use to assess various aspects in this regard - a many times repeated one is the Status Quo track that I used to use in the early days, for checking rigs I came across. This tested the ability of the power supply to hold up, and allow the amplifier to produce clear treble ... back then, every system, bar one, failed - these days, it would be a lot different; amplifier technology has improved.

 

The NAD is a class G design - which works remarkably well in the flesh; I have yet to catch it out in terms of handling a big transient or crescendo - when we tested it in the audio retailer years ago and bought it, compared to others of similar price it was miles ahead in this regard.

 

Please note, the cabinet is chipboard - they have a cosmetic, plastic front, which I ripped off. The sides are thin, compared to "proper" units of that size; but it hasn't been a major source of SQ compromise - if I get around to upping the ante, I will probably stiffen and damp those sides. Why I keep with them is that the drivers are made to handle power, lots of it - easily far better than the old B&Ws in this regard.

 

The megabuck rigs I come across are too obviously flawed - and once you register the signature distortion of the chain, you keep hearing it, again and again ... the NAD and Sharp, at their best, are above doing that; they provide, "every recording sounds different".

[fas42]

27 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Chronic fatigue is a real problem for many people. I agree it can manifest in both physical as well as neurocognitive ways (like focus, concentration, memory, distractability etc). I also agree that pacing and modifying tasks is useful and whether applied to weeding...or working on audio gear.

 

As observed and discussed with colleagues, obsessive and perfectionistic personality traits appears to be a risk factor for some fatigue states. I would wager than many members here (self included) have theses traits to some extent. They are a very useful and successful strategy for processionals of any high achiever when applied externally but can be dynamite when applied internally.

 

Maybe we should all listen to more music and analyze it less.

 

 

Very nice overview ... thanks!

[fas42]

19 minutes ago, wdw said:

 

Pleesseee....!

 

I cannot believe you get away with this......

 

With what?

[PeterSt]

2 hours ago, fas42 said:

any sustained focus on anything - and that can be at the level of weeding the lawn - may "overload" me.

 

burn-out.

[fas42]

16 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

burn-out.

 

Yes, that is the term that I normally use.

[fas42]

This may or may not help in understanding what I'm after .. .posted in the blog about 4 years ago, about a first attempt to record using a brand new, cheap USB mic,

 

Quote

Hooray! I recorded a couple of instances of the NAD system playing, in a pretty bad position: single mic, about 3 metres behind the right hand speaker, no attempts to optimise the recording quality at all, just to see how the sound came across ... a bit of The Faces and some old Blues from an el cheapo CD. Not bad methinks, gives a pretty good idea of what it sounds like ... so, as a pure, first experiment uploaded The Faces take on YouTube ...

 

Quote

 

Now, believe it or not, this is my very first attempt to put anything on YouTube, and I didn't get the settings right - only relatively low quality settings come up on playing ... so, plenty to do to get a far better experience for a viewer. But, I feel the essence of the replay largely working right comes through even in this first miserable go - check it out ... https://youtu.be/-R_mju7q7Z8   .
 

 ...

 

And a bit later ... uploaded the Blues combo, The Art of Audio Conjuring - Take 3,

 

 

 

Quote

... this starts during "Crying", Jimmy Witherspoon, followed by "Everybody Rock", Jimmy McCracklin - this is in HD, which may or may not help the replay quality ...

 

And this is the latter track, "Everybody Rock", from the source, very recently uploaded - starts at 2:30 in the above capture of playback,

 

 

Now obviously huge differences, volume, acoustic because the sound is being captured from that bouncing from the wall in front of the speakers, and thence reaching the mic, behind the speakers ...but I feel the playback has presented the essence of that piece, that which makes it worth listening to.

[fas42]

Just noting Chris's review,

 

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This is a good sign ... the manufacturers are indeed learning, and it will steadily ripple out, and filter down to lower cost units - what it means is that far less tweaking will need to be done to extract decent SQ from a rig; because the components are intrinsically engineered to a much higher standard. At the moment we are in a transition era, where absurdly costly items are showing the way, and far more price effective units are in the process of incorporating the lessons learned from breaking down what it actually is in the expensive components that makes the better sound happen - bling is not a prerequisite for a special listening experience.

 

Note the clear improvement in what is now going on - the older, less capable gear blurs, homogenises the fine detail; the improved variant brings forth everything that is actually on the recording, but not in a manner which is disturbing - the 'humanity' of what was captured is now far more apparent, and makes the listening so much more satisfying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fas42]

Just noting this new unit, from NAD, https://nadelectronics.com/nad-masters-m33-bluos-streaming-dac-amplifier-becomes-first-integrated-component-to-feature-purifis-ultra-quiet-amplification-technology/ - would be close to ideal as a integrated solution. Technically, this would tick the boxes for all the measurable parameters being as good as it gets; so any shortfalls in subjective performance are then due to weaknesses in the implementation, the integration of the various parts - it makes zero sense to buy anything more expensive than this ... need to see what the subjective reviews have to say, which will indicate how well NAD have 'debugged' the engineering of the combining of the various elements in one box ... highly likely to be an excellent base for optimising to achieve convincing SQ - if it can't do this in 'raw' form.

[Confused]

7 hours ago, fas42 said:

Just noting this new unit, from NAD, https://nadelectronics.com/nad-masters-m33-bluos-streaming-dac-amplifier-becomes-first-integrated-component-to-feature-purifis-ultra-quiet-amplification-technology/ - would be close to ideal as a integrated solution. Technically, this would tick the boxes for all the measurable parameters being as good as it gets; so any shortfalls in subjective performance are then due to weaknesses in the implementation, the integration of the various parts - it makes zero sense to buy anything more expensive than this ... need to see what the subjective reviews have to say, which will indicate how well NAD have 'debugged' the engineering of the combining of the various elements in one box ... highly likely to be an excellent base for optimising to achieve convincing SQ - if it can't do this in 'raw' form.

Yes, it is creating a bit of a bit of excited anticipation in some circles, although as you mention, nobody has listened to one in the wild yet, so time will tell what the subjective opinions will be. 

 

One reason it is creating much interest is that not only it is likely to perform well in terms of sound quality for the price, but it also features built in Dirac Room correction.  Not your kind of thing I presume?

[fas42]

12 hours ago, Confused said:

 

One reason it is creating much interest is that not only it is likely to perform well in terms of sound quality for the price, but it also features built in Dirac Room correction.  Not your kind of thing I presume?

 

Yes, room correction has never interested me - I find that my brain does an excellent job of compensating all by itself, if the SQ is good enough ... 🙂. Demonstrations of what happens, say with the DEQX unit, leave me quite nonplussed.

 

I have come across one clip, apparently of the M33 in operation - the positives were that detail was well expressed, nominally nothing was missing; but what I could also hear was the classic problem of a type of edginess being in the sound, where bursts of strong treble were troubling - this is a key area that I deal with in my optimising; getting rid of that particular distortion artifact. Now, this might be very unfair on the NAD unit; the circumstances of the recording might have caused this - so, wait till more comes in, to get a better handle on its behaviour, as you say.

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Yes, room correction has never interested me - I find that my brain does an excellent job of compensating all by itself, if the SQ is good enough ... 🙂. Demonstrations of what happens, say with the DEQX unit, leave me quite nonplussed.

 

I have come across one clip, apparently of the M33 in operation - the positives were that detail was well expressed, nominally nothing was missing; but what I could also hear was the classic problem of a type of edginess being in the sound, where bursts of strong treble were troubling - this is a key area that I deal with in my optimising; getting rid of that particular distortion artifact. Now, this might be very unfair on the NAD unit; the circumstances of the recording might have caused this - so, wait till more comes in, to get a better handle on its behaviour, as you say.

I have DSP room correction in my amplifier. I don’t notice much (if any) difference overall, but I will tell you where the technology was invaluable. I futzed and futzed over getting the subwoofers to integrate with my Martin Logan’s. There are so many variables; sub placement, crossover frequency, level matching, etc. It’s a nightmare and they never sounded right. My amp has outputs for two self-powered subwoofers and I have two subwoofers. The outputs, if you choose to activate them, are in the DSP circuit, and will be adjusted along with the main output. So, I set the crossover frequency for the subs to 80 Hz, positioned the subs where they were as inconspicuous as possible, and I cranked each of the powered sub’s level control all the way up. Then using the calibration microphone that came with the amp, I ran the calibration program. I told the amp that I was running two powered subs, and I moved the microphone around as the program instructed. When the calibration was complete, the subs suddenly disappeared! I could no longer tell where the main speakers stopped and the subs took over.

All I noticed was that I now had seamless bass down into the twenties. I’d say for that reason alone, DSP room correction is well worth the effort. In fact, I’d go so far as to say, don’t do subwoofers without it!

[fas42]

7 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

All I noticed was that I now had seamless bass down into the twenties. I’d say that for that reason alone, DSP room correction is well worth the effort. In fact, I’d go so far as to say, don’t do subwoofers without it!

 

I would agree that if one has separate subwoofers that smart DSP correction is invaluable for ensuring that the two spatially separated speakers systems properly integrate, as least for some areas of the room.