How much does it cost to be an audiophile?

[GUTB]

1 hour ago, mav52 said:

You bought the Master Ref Turntable They were showing ?

 

Lol no. The Concerto with upgraded platter (much larger and heavier) - $6500 show price $4200. So basically street price of a Concerto with an upgraded platter thrown in. The speed controller is MRSP $2800 show price $2000, and is pretty heavy itself so altogether its supposed to be around 100 lbs.

 

It was shown with an Osiris 12” arm and with a pretty high end cartridge, looked like a Triangle Art Apollo. That combo has a MRSP of around $14k.

[gmgraves]

20 hours ago, esldude said:

Well optimally you'd switch at both ends.  But if not doing that is adequate for 90% of those doing this maybe that is still an okay suggestion.  Especially if you amended it to say unless your interconnects exceed 3 meters you'd be safe doing it as George suggests.  

Which makes no sense. Coax is rated in pF/foot (or meter) and is parallel capacitance. The longer the cable, the more capacitance, as parallel capacitance is directly additive. So if you had a 1ft coax that had 20 pF/ft, then of course, the 1 ft long cable would have 20 pF of capacitance, if you doubled the length, it would give you 40 pF overall capacitance. Here's the rub. If you put two 1 ft coax cables in parallel, to the circuit, it looks just the same as a 2 ft long coax because both lengthening and doubling up of the coax adds capacitance in parallel. 

In the case that Alex presents, where we are talking about RG59U as an example, it has 30 pF/foot. Three meters of that cable would have 270 pF of parallel capacitance. same as two runs of 1.5 meters in parallel with a Y-adapter cable. So I don't see how increasing the length of the cable would make not switching the driven end OK, where a shorter pair with less capacitive reactance would require switching the driven end???!! ?

[gmgraves]

16 hours ago, sandyk said:

Is that why you resort to such stupid images ?

There is a correct way to do things,

and switching both ends is the correct way.The other method is lazy and any conclusions reached would be rejected as scientific proof.

Those conclusions wouldn't be rejected by anyone who understood the physics and maths behind the methodology!

[mav52]

46 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Lol no. The Concerto with upgraded platter (much larger and heavier) - $6500 show price $4200. So basically street price of a Concerto with an upgraded platter thrown in. The speed controller is MRSP $2800 show price $2000, and is pretty heavy itself so altogether its supposed to be around 100 lbs.

 

It was shown with an Osiris 12” arm and with a pretty high end cartridge, looked like a Triangle Art Apollo. That combo has a MRSP of around $14k.

cool. I know a couple people that are using the Jelco arms with nice results. https://www.jelco-ichikawa.co.jp/products/tonearm.html

[gmgraves]

13 hours ago, sandyk said:

George 

Just because you personally can't hear differences between cables,or the effect of the extra capacitance on the output stage I.C. doesn't mean othat others are unable to. I would give a lengthier reply, but I am typing this on a small mobile.

You haven't been paying attention. I have said repeatedly, that I can and do hear differences in cables. Unfortunately, since those differences disappear in every interconnect DBT in which I have ever participated, I generally ignore them as being my imagination. After all, there is no theory that covers why short runs of coax should or even could alter the signal passing through it, especially at such a low frequency. It also doesn't make any sense that short runs of cable could alter an audio signal while not affecting other, more important or higher frequency signals at all! It should strike anyone noting the phenomenon as very odd that this aberration has never been noted with any other kind of signal than audio. I've looked long and hard for other instances of this phenomenon and have not found anything approaching any academic paper seeking to explain or even to note this phenomenon. In fact all you can find on the subject are "white papers" written by companies whose self-interest is tied up in this controversial subject being real. Unfortunately, if you read these self-serving "explanations" with an educated eye, it's clear that what these white papers are saying is either sheer double-talk or is alluding to real-world phenomena that only affect coaxial cables in the VHF or UHF regions, not in the audio spectrum. I've seen allusion to skin effect (does not exist below 100 KHz at least), references to dielectric absortion distortion (it exists in audio, but only in quite large capacitors with very high dielectric coefficients - like paper film and acetate film capacitors), the way the braid is woven, or the twist in stranded core coaxial. Which company is it that designs their cables to mimic the spiral of a nautilus shell? As if this natural mean somehow affects electrical conductivity of coaxial cables in an audio circuit? 

Now I have a question for Alex. Why do so many of you guys refuse to entertain the possibility that your belief in interconnect sound is the result of human bias? Given the number of ways in which the brain can fool us, would suggest that bias is a very real possibility, and given what we know about the way electrons behave, it's a very logical possibility as well. Most sciences realize this and it's why everything from drug tests to food tasting tests are done using double-blind and other bias minimizing test procedures.

[mansr]

27 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

In fact all you can find on the subject are "white papers" written by companies whose self-interest is tied up in this controversial subject being real. Unfortunately, if you read these self-serving "explanations" with an educated eye, it's clear that what these white papers are saying is either sheer double-talk or is alluding to real-world phenomena that only affect coaxial cables in the VHF or UHF regions, not in the audio spectrum.

In addition to this, many of the claims put forth are in direct contradiction to one another. Until they can at least get their story straight, I see no reason to pay any attention whatsoever to them. Other than for entertainment. obviously.

[esldude]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

Which makes no sense. Coax is rated in pF/foot (or meter) and is parallel capacitance. The longer the cable, the more capacitance, as parallel capacitance is directly additive. So if you had a 1ft coax that had 20 pF/ft, then of course, the 1 ft long cable would have 20 pF of capacitance, if you doubled the length, it would give you 40 pF overall capacitance. Here's the rub. If you put two 1 ft coax cables in parallel, to the circuit, it looks just the same as a 2 ft long coax because both lengthening and doubling up of the coax adds capacitance in parallel. 

In the case that Alex presents, where we are talking about RG59U as an example, it has 30 pF/foot. Three meters of that cable would have 270 pF of parallel capacitance. same as two runs of 1.5 meters in parallel with a Y-adapter cable. So I don't see how increasing the length of the cable would make not switching the driven end OK, where a shorter pair with less capacitive reactance would require switching the driven end???!! ?

I think you read my post in too big a hurry. You have it backwards.

 

 ....... if you amended it to say UNLESS your interconnects exceed 3 meters you'd be safe doing it as George suggests.  

 

UNLESS your cable exceeds 3 meters you'd be safe using George's method.  In fact you'd usually be safe with more, but few people have cables longer than that so I picked it as a cutoff which in itself is arbitrary.  Mainly trying to get the point across that yes at some point it might be a problem, but rarely, and for very few people.  So I think Alex is being far too hard line about it. 

[Ralf11]

2 hours ago, gmgraves said:

Those conclusions wouldn't be rejected by anyone who understood the physics and maths behind the methodology!

 

A typical Audiophile simply does not feel the need to have physics and math of any kind.  There are large numbers of C.A. members who hear confirmation bias between cables of various kinds etc. and don't care if their perception is rooted in reality or not.

[accwai]

On 6/1/2018 at 11:18 AM, Jud said:

As with other hobbies, there are a couple of different approaches to this.  If you’re a car nut you can take the brute force approach and buy a Ferrari (expensive casework!),

 

The following isn't Ferrari, but it's been making the rounds in the local media lately. Supercars are what they are for reason. Show some respect or suffer:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsUWk4prWZw

 

Quote

you can mod your Honda (Fast and Furious, anyone?),

 

... from Ferrari to ricing Honda eh?

 

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/1827/3041/4566520021_large.jpg

 

 

Quote

or you can go high tech and blow both off the line with a Tesla. [...]

 

It's interesting something that's widely known to be able to blow both Ferraris and modded Hondas off the line would be doing 10 minute lap time at Nürburgring's north loop, if it finishes a lap at all. That's the kind of lap time for delivery vans. What would sleight of hand like that be called around here at CA? Two word term starts with 'S' and 'O', can't quite remember the whole thing...

[Ralf11]

maybe he modded an NSX?

[Jud]

1 hour ago, accwai said:

 

The following isn't Ferrari, but it's been making the rounds in the local media lately. Supercars are what they are for reason. Show some respect or suffer:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsUWk4prWZw

 

That was Joe Walsh, wasn't it?

 

1 hour ago, accwai said:

 

... from Ferrari to ricing Honda eh?

 

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/1827/3041/4566520021_large.jpg

 

 

 

That was excellent.   

 

1 hour ago, accwai said:

It's interesting something that's widely known to be able to blow both Ferraris and modded Hondas off the line would be doing 10 minute lap time at Nürburgring's north loop, if it finishes a lap at all. That's the kind of lap time for delivery vans. What would sleight of hand like that be called around here at CA? Two word term starts with 'S' and 'O', can't quite remember the whole thing...

 

He did say he was pretty much keeping up with a GT3 until it went into reduced power mode.

 

You didn't happen to see the episode of The Grand Tour where Richard Hammond almost killed himself in an electric supercar, did you?  Thing was *fast*.

[Richard Dale]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

A typical Audiophile simply does not feel the need to have physics and math of any kind.  There are large numbers of C.A. members who hear confirmation bias between cables of various kinds etc. and don't care if their perception is rooted in reality or not.

Yes, that sounds about right to me. I find listening to music on my HiFi systems and tweaking them to hear music better is a fun hobby. If people like yourself want to it to be a 'science experiment' instead that is fine with me.

 

On the subject of cables which sound really good to people like myself 'whose perception is not rooted in reality' and also don't cost a lot for use in an entry level system as per the subject of this thread,  I am having a lot of fun trying out Duelund cables. I found out about them on the Positive Feedback site and a series of 'Jeff's Place' blogs, and artcles on Positive Feedback. See here:

 

http://jeffsplace.me/wordpress/?cat=31

 

I use low power single ended tube amps and Tannoy speakers, which are a smaller version of some of the kit described in the Jeff's Place articles, and so I thought the 'vintage tone' of the Dueland cables might suit my system. I've tried the DCA16GA in my main system, replacing Nordost Red Dawn with good results. The recommend way to use Dueland for speaker cable is to just have bare wire connections, and so the only cost is about 10 pounds per meter of cable, or 80 pounds or so for a completer 2 meter pair of cables.

 

Then I made up a half meter interconnect with Dueland DCA20GA and Dueland RCA sockets to use between my new APPJ tube headphone amp (which I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread) and a Chord Hugo and the whole system is sounding great. This evening I made up another interconnect with DCA20GA and ETI Research Link Copper plugs which actually worked out better than the one with the Dueland plugs as the ETIs are much easier to solder. In fact I wouldn't recommend the Dueland plugs as they are so hard to heat properly. For an entry level interconnect you could use some Switchcraft RCAs and build a complete 1 meter interconnect cable for about 50 pounds. You just need the cable, RCA plugs, some red and black heat shrink tubing and good quality solder - I use Mundorf silver solder.

 

[sandyk]

7 hours ago, esldude said:

 

These other parts of the forum wouldn't happen to be selling something would they?

 

Some E.E.'s are quite happy to share their knowledge and experience.  Some audiophiles seem reluctant to take advantage of that. 

 

You seem to have a habit of painting with a broad brush those who listen to EEs and EEs both as negative groups of people hindering others from advancing when there isn't any truth to it. 

There are many other areas of the forum where a great deal of experimentation is going on , especially in the PSU area, clocking,modifying or using later generation cables etc. that are done independently of any Forum advertisers.
Many older E.E.s appear to be living in a Time Warp , with them assuming that their knowledge is completely up to date, and hasn't been updated due to more recent research and availability of vastly improved semiconductor devices.
How many E.E.s (with the exception of perhaps a select few such as Mansr) who post in the General Forum area, and have the capabilities, have even bothered to try replacing the now elderly voltage regulators such as the LM3x7 series, LM7xxx series etc. in some of their equipment  with the new ultra low noise voltage regulators such as the LT304x series due to their deeply ingrained belief that the lower noise floor is purely ACADEMIC, and the human ear is incapable of hearing any further improvement ?
This includes you too, Dennis !
 How many E.E.s etc. completely reject the possibility that a gadget such as a USB Regen is capable of improving USB Audio, and claim that if it does, it's due to poorly implemented DACs, which after all, weren't designed by laymen, they were usually designed by competent qualified E.E.s and Software designers ?
 

[sandyk]

6 hours ago, gmgraves said:

You haven't been paying attention. I have said repeatedly, that I can and do hear differences in cables. Unfortunately, since those differences disappear in every interconnect DBT in which I have ever participated, I generally ignore them as being my imagination.

I have seen the same stuff from you on many occasions.  So you would prefer to believe that your hearing was suspect, over the fact that DBTs are RARELY performed as well as they should be, and that differences may be masked by the methods used for the comparisons, including software, or perhaps the use of hardware switching devices using perhaps additional plugs and sockets, as well as involving the use of additional cabling ?

It disappoints me that so many rely on using methods such as the Foobar comparator to prove these things, when so many C.A. members can attest that the degradation caused by Foobar software player is extremely obvious in comparison with other players such as JRiver's later version, when not only using ASIO, but more importantly using the play from System Memory option now included.

[sandyk]

6 hours ago, gmgraves said:

Now I have a question for Alex. Why do so many of you guys refuse to entertain the possibility that your belief in interconnect sound is the result of human bias?

 It would appear that you haven't been listening to me either. Nowhere have I personally claimed that I can hear differences between Analogue  interconnects of a similar length and type of construction.

However, many members have, and unlike you, I am not willing to dismiss these numerous reports outright.

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, sandyk said:

How many E.E.s etc. completely reject the possibility that a gadget such as a USB Regen is capable of improving USB Audio

Would it surprise you to learn that I have recently been sketching out a simple USB widget that could improve things in certain situations? No, not the power monitor I already posted about.

[accwai]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

That was Joe Walsh, wasn't it?

 

The driver was supposed to be visitor with Chinese passport. That one mishap trashed both the McLaren and the red Audi R8 parked on the opposite side. Ouch ?

 

Quote

He did say he was pretty much keeping up with a GT3 until it went into reduced power mode.

 

Keeping up with Porsche GT3 for like 2min then spend 8min chasing delivery vans. That's nice...

 

Quote

You didn't happen to see the episode of The Grand Tour where Richard Hammond almost killed himself in an electric supercar, did you? Thing was *fast*.

 

There are only like a handful of the Rimac out there right? Is a mass produced Tesla supposed to be comparable to something like the Rimac? Interesting that Tesla is now claiming that its second generation Roadster is faster than the NIO EP9, which on paper is even faster than the Rimac. And the EP9 currently holds the EV lap record at Nürburgring.

 

Unless there is a big breakthrough in battery technology in the future, EVs would have a serious weight disadvantage. Just compare the weight of the Rimac and EP9 to ICE based super/hypercars. And look at how much the Tesla Model S weights also. That puts them at a power weight ratio and handling disadvantage. Personally, pouring out overwhelming amount of power from a standstill a couple of times (to impress people?) is not a priority. But its a free world. Whatever floats ones boat I guess.

[gmgraves]

5 hours ago, esldude said:

I think you read my post in too big a hurry. You have it backwards.

 

 ....... if you amended it to say UNLESS your interconnects exceed 3 meters you'd be safe doing it as George suggests.  

 

UNLESS your cable exceeds 3 meters you'd be safe using George's method.  In fact you'd usually be safe with more, but few people have cables longer than that so I picked it as a cutoff which in itself is arbitrary.  Mainly trying to get the point across that yes at some point it might be a problem, but rarely, and for very few people.  So I think Alex is being far too hard line about it. 

Yeah, I misunderstood what you wrote, I guess. 

[sandyk]

 

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

Would it surprise you to learn that I have recently been sketching out a simple USB widget that could improve things in certain situations? No, not the power monitor I already posted about.

 

It would not surprise me in the least, and you should have noticed by now that in many areas I am in complete agreement with what you have to say. I also feel quite sure that as you further improve the power to other areas, such as with the addition of an external PSU option in your USB Power Monitor, that you will also notice further audible improvements in other areas using similar techniques, including perhaps measured results that may suggest that human hearing is capable of hearing

differences at lower levels than previously thought possible.

[gmgraves]

46 minutes ago, sandyk said:

There are many other areas of the forum where a great deal of experimentation is going on , especially in the PSU area, clocking,modifying or using later generation cables etc. that are done independently of any Forum advertisers.
Many older E.E.s appear to be living in a Time Warp , with them assuming that their knowledge is completely up to date, and hasn't been updated due to more recent research and availability of vastly improved semiconductor devices.
How many E.E.s (with the exception of perhaps a select few such as Mansr) who post in the General Forum area, and have the capabilities, have even bothered to try replacing the now elderly voltage regulators such as the LM3x7 series, LM7xxx series etc. in some of their equipment  with the new ultra low noise voltage regulators such as the LT304x series due to their deeply ingrained belief that the lower noise floor is purely ACADEMIC, and the human ear is incapable of hearing any further improvement ?
This includes you too, Dennis !
 How many E.E.s etc. completely reject the possibility that a gadget such as a USB Regen is capable of improving USB Audio, and claim that if it does, it's due to poorly implemented DACs, which after all, weren't designed by laymen, they were usually designed by competent qualified E.E.s and Software designers ?
 

I'm all for anything that would improve USB audio. Generally, I try not to use it as much as I can. Luckily I can do that (mostly). My system is connected via coaxial SPDIF. and the only time I resort to USB is when I have to use a computer web-site for my audio such as when "Auntie Beeb" (the BBC) is streaming the audio in 16/48 FLAC for the Proms like they did last year and one had to use specific build of Firefox to access the FLAC stream. 

[fas42]

My method is see whether trying something has an audible effect; if so, then there is a straightforward reason for that being the case - I usually start by thinking it through, and if the light bulb goes off then I have the situation under control ... a few experiments confirm the mechanism being relevant, and I can let that one go. This is why I hard wire every connection.

 

Sometimes, I need to do analysis. It was clear power supplies are pretty fragile, so I did extensive work modelling what goes on inside real world units, using Spice - yes, the typical circuits are dicky, borderline good enough; so I spent some time designing variants and playing with ideas to improve behaviour - which worked out.

 

Then, there are influences which are largely baffling. Static behaviours matter, but are hard to diagnose, and understand in terms of how they influence the key circuitry - but they do; so various techniques are brought in and investigated to see if the effects can be mitigated - trial and error is the approach here.

[gmgraves]

19 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

 

The old Commie!

[davide256]

16 hours ago, semente said:

 

Did you buy the phono stage?

 

The vinyl record player that you listened to is a system. Without the phono stage it'll be incomplete and with not produce the performance that you believe it can achieve from listening to it at a show (with unknown amplification, speakers and room).

I suspect you were being facetious to @GUTB... there is no system "matching" between a mechanical turntable system and an electrical phono stage beyond buying the appropriate quality choice. A good turntable is like a good digital renderer, in any decent system it allows you to hear better dynamics, bass, and detail in the music.

[sandyk]

5 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

I'm all for anything that would improve USB audio. Generally, I try not to use it as much as I can. Luckily I can do that (mostly). My system is connected via coaxial SPDIF. and the only time I resort to USB is when I have to use a computer web-site for my audio such as when "Auntie Beeb" (the BBC) is streaming the audio in 16/48 FLAC for the Proms like they did last year and one had to use specific build of Firefox to access the FLAC stream. 

George

 Of equal importance to improving the USB area is the choice of software player, even when using Coax SPDIF from an internal soundcard to a high performance DAC. Unlike you, I am using Windows 10/64, and only a few days ago I was forced into the realisation that the simplistic cPlay that I have been using, and found to sound markedly better than Foobar 2000 etc. was clearly outperformed by JRiver despite both using ASIO. Initially, I found that JRiver sounded slightly compressed in comparison, until Audiophile Neuroscience asked if I had ticked the Advanced option of enabling play from System Memory.

I was already doing that with cPlay, but enabling Memory Play in JRiver lifted it up to a level where it then clearly outperformed cPlay.

 I expect that the same would apply when using some of the well respected paid player software for Macs too, in comparison with say iTunes.

[gmgraves]

12 hours ago, sandyk said:

Your typical Audiophile simply does not feel the need to provide proof of any kind to others. 

That doesn't mean that their belief in this phenomenon isn't delusional. I don't feel any need to provide proof that if I climb up on top of the barn and flap my arms real fast and jump off, that I will likely fall to my death, either, but I know enough physics to realize that it is true. And even all the faith in the world that I WOULD fly, will not stop such an action from killing me. 

 

12 hours ago, sandyk said:

There are large numbers of C.A. members who hear differences between cables of various kinds etc.

Large numbers of people see ghosts and poltergeists as well, Alex. That doesn't mean that they are real. 

 

13 hours ago, sandyk said:

 Very few Audiophiles could care less if what they are reporting is accepted by E.E.s or not !

That's neither here nor there. The question is, do these audiophiles CARE whether what they believe they are hearing is REAL or not? At this point, your assertion has left the area of hobby or interest, and has crossed over into a religion, or at least it has a acquired many of the trappings of a religion. By that I mean that these audiophiles are assigning characteristics of religious belief whereby truth and facts are replaced with faith. Faith that no matter what the scientific or engineering knowledge says, they prefer their belief in their empirical observations, no matter how unlikely that belief system might be. 

I suppose that it's good for commerce that so many audiophiles are so zealous about this subject. It keeps companies like AudioQuest, Kimber and Nordost in business selling extremely high-profit (crazy profit, actually) cables to the unwary and the deeply committed.