Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[firedog]

As far as power, Kii has told me that they have no recommendations. Just try with and without and see what works.
 

Room treatments. I left my corner bass traps up behind the Kiis because I don't really have anywhere else to put them. I doubt they are contributing anything, as when I stand between them and the back of the Kiis I don't feel/hear any output. The cardoid dispersion definitely works. 

I have treatments on the back wall b/c it's a small room and I sit directly on the back wall. The treatments prevent bounce  back.

 

I had the same setup before the Kiis, and it sounded good. No question that there are less room effects and more clarity with the Kiis. 

[Mazza]

3 hours ago, bobfa said:

I would at least try to have them go through some power line protection system..

 

+1 for mains filtering. @bobfa raises a good point. 

 

This I have found can make quite a difference and gets rid of a lot of the noise found on a lot of mains supply that seems to translate to a low volume level ‘mush’ or haze to the sound. For example, turn the speakers up to full volume without music playing and you will hear low volume hiss and crackles (you need your ears to almost touch the drivers), put some filtering in and this reduces, or with a decent rig, will be eliminated. 

 

The kii’s are very revealing, they are monitors after all, and the better the source the more influence the above will have. For this and and other reasons YMMV.

 

Happy tweaking and listening, you have joined a rarified list of very lucky people!

[Craig1512]

Agree that mains filtering should be used with the Kii Three, in fact with all audio components if you want clean power. I have the Kii Threes and all my other components running off a PS Audio P5 power regenerator. If the Kii Threes are plugged into the wall I do get some hum & hiss with volume up, ear close to the tweeter, plugged into the P5, dead quiet. My mains voltage fluctuates a lot according to the P5 input voltage reading, gives me comfort to know that the Kii Threes and my other components are getting a stable accurate voltage at 230 volts. I use the stock power cables supplied with the Kii Threes, so not sure if better power cables make a difference, probably not a debate to have on this thread.

[Cazzesman]

In preparation for tomorrows Kii 3 pickup I have read the 31 pages here.

I see around page 25 there was talk about what Tracks members play to tweak their speakers.   I have USB stick with the following that I use.  These will all get pumped when the Kii 3's are in situ.

Buddy Guy: Sweet Tea - Done Got Old.   -  Stunning vocal start where you can hear the spit in his mouth and the inhale of breath.  

Steve Vai 'The Ultra Zone'  -  The CD.    Wow sound stage climb along my side walls and floor to ceiling stuff.  

Roger Waters - Three Wishes   -   The lady's voice about 3 feet off my left ear.   Spooky stuff.   The Genie's booming voice creeps along the walls and along the floor.
Infected Mushroom - Legend Of The Black Shawarma  -  The CD Some oomph there.

Tom Waits - Heart attack and Vine - The soundstage can actually be inside, between the speakers.    Strange to hear but great vocals.   Dead set centre pinpoint of Tom.

Michael Jackson - Thriller - Billie Jean -  Dynamics up the Wazzooo!  So much more in that Track 

Renee Geyer - Sweet Life - Killer Love.   Awesome vocals and pristine production.   Each instrument is so precise in the soundstage.

Porcupine Tree - In Absentia - Blackest Eyes.    After the slow start when the drums crash in you get a great soundstage and a grin from ear to ear.   Well I do .

Tom Jones - Praise and Blame - What good am I - This was one of the days highlights.   Starts with a drum in the left speaker and then Tom comes in with his deep baritone.  His voice is about 3 metres wide and 2 metres high.   Rich and full of sheer visceral impact. 

Silverchair - Frogstomp - Israel's Son - The droning bass was great then the bigger bass over the top then the guitars just smash in way out wide and it sounds truly stupendous.   

Pink Floyd - DSOTM - Great Gig in the Sky.    Really interesting placement of the 3 sets of female vocals in the soundstage. 

Ian Moss - Lets all get together - Janelle.  So pure the vocals.  Pin point placement of vocals and crystal guitar sounds

Nils Petter Molvaer - Khmer - Khmer - Stunning trumpet surrounded by a soundscape of swirling music.  Right channel has an amazing droning bass that holds the track to the floor.  Huge dynamics from the production at ECM.

Paul McCartney - Kiss on the Bottom - I'm Gunna sit right down and write Myself a Letter.   Such pristine production it just sparkles.  Paul's voice is pure as driven snow.   Wonderfull band he has put together including Alison Krauss in piano.

Elton John - Goodbye Yellow Brick Road - Funeral for a Friend/Loves lies Bleeding.         Holy Cow Batman this is so Awesome turned up loud.   Production is stellar.

Chris Cornell - Songbook - Fell on Black Days - Chris alone with just his vocals and acoustic guitar.    Mesmerising, the entire CD. 

Ragn'Bone Man - Human -  Massive vocals and deep grove

Lorde - Royals  -  Her pure vocals and Deep, deep bass lines

Sia - Chandelier -  Dynamic

David Bowie - Blackstar - Brilliant production

Charles Kelly - Southern Accents  -  Wonderful vocals from Charles and Stevie Nicks

Keb Mo - Basically anything he has done.   -  Production is clean and top notch for his vocals and guitar playing

Skunkhour - Stay close -  Some deep stuff.  Very moody vocals

Toto - I will remember -  The opening drum rolls by Simon Phillips are said to be some of the best ever produced.

Can't wait.

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

[baconbrain]

Excellent list. Thanks for sharing!

[AMR/iFi audio]

On 6/29/2019 at 5:34 AM, bobfa said:

I would remove the room treatments if possible. Setup and Tune the Kii Threes, then make any decisions.

 

Yes, with speakers like these it makes sense to do as you wrote.

[Cazzesman]

Good afternoon fellow Kii 3 owners 😀   Damn I am so happy I can now say that out loud.   Woohoo!!!!!

 

Picked them up Lunch time Monday and on getting home I had music in an hour or so.    Slow and steady wins the race I'm told.     I had to put the stands together for starters.   Heavy mothers.

 

AES from Mutec USB 3 into the Kii 3.    12 months ago I was in Japan and came across a pretty decent Audio store in Shibuya.  They had a number of AES 110ohm cables for sale so I snapped one up even though I had no use for it at the time.  My wife said....."You can put it in the box with the other 100 cables".  She's a cynical women at times 😀

 

She knows the old adage..............."he who dies with the most cables wins".    Being a Quilter she knows the adage as...........

"She who dies with the most material wins".     She is so far in front I have no hope in that race.

 

I took great pleasure in telling her I used the cable.  She grinned and wandered off.   Small victories after 30 Years. 🤗

 

Set them up in general situ and played with the Controller, getting my head around what it did.    Used them with the TV that night and even the wife commented about the sound clarity.   There's a win right there IMHO.

 

Tuesday morning was proper play day.   I had a 4pm start for work so plenty of time I thought................thought?   

I removed my previous speakers from the area and went about placement and the tweaking, tweaking, tweaking, tweaking.......damn this Controller is a trap for young players when you can play music and instantly adjust stuff from you lounge chair.    I like the 4 metre Cat6 cables that came with the Speakers. 

 

My phone rang and it was someone from work with a question.   Looked at my watch..........@#$%^!!!!    3pm.    I am well aware of the PC Black Hole Syndrome (BHS) and I now have Kii 3 BHS.    Probably not a bad 'rash to get' all things considered. 🤩

 

Quick tidy up and set everything via the Controller so that when the beloved got home all she had to do was turn the TV to on and 'Abracadabra' let there be sound.     I get a text message later that evening to say....'You done good".     Enough said, praise galore.

 

How do they sound........................that's not a question Kii 3 owners say.    What they say is............."How #$%^ good do they sound!!!"

The Kii 3's are a statement not a question.

 

I won't bore the converted with superlatives............you know the gist.     Bruno and Co are pretty damn smart folks and I am happy I could give them some $$ towards their retirement.

 

As I type this I am listening to Paper Airplane by Alison Krauss and Union Station.    And I am grinning like an idiot.  

 

Can't wait to tweak some more.....................that way leads to insanity I suspect.

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

 

 

[TheStupidOne]

There's been talk about not needing room treatment when setting up the Kiis, but I want to clarify this misconception so that potential buyers don't end up disappointed when faced with the horror of physics.

 

Before graphs to demonstrate my point, l want to explain that room acoustics doesn't change based on which speakers are playing, nor does it care about fancy tech or clever engineering. It will respond to energy the same way it always does, the only difference will be in how the speakers are spreading their energy to the different reflective surfaces. Differences here will lead to differences in the various first-reflection sound power, but the room will still bounce those reflections back and forth until it is absorbed.

 

The cardioide dispersion of Kii will lead to a 4,8 dB stronger direct-sound vs reflection sound ratio, and while that is significant and clearly audible, it's not the same as making the reflections go away completely. 

 

First, let us examine if this engineering marvel that is Kii have any favourable measurable differences compared to another active engineering marvel, Devialet Phantom Silver. This is measured using one speaker only, placed closed to a corner and calibrated to the same output using REW.

Phantom Silver first in all cases.

 

 

[TheStupidOne]

So, while we can clearly see that the cardioide dispersion have a significant effect compared to a traditional design, we can still clearly see the same trending acoustical signature of the room itself. So let us look at what happens when you treat the room with some absorption using the Kiis.

First before and after some ceiling treatments and then some experiments with 4 pieces of 4 inch RPG Absorbor panels placed against backwall vs two on floor reflection vs sidewall etc;

 

 

[Emlin]

 l want to explain that room acoustics doesn't change based on which speakers are playing.

 

If you put half of the energy into the room whilst maintaining the same SPL at the listening position, you reckon that that's not going to be audible? Plus, via the cardiode, early reflections will be much more benign.

[Emlin]

You'll have to tell us what room you're using. In detail.

[TheStupidOne]

Excuse me for having to post this in separate posts, but I'm on the phone and find it difficult to navigate properly.

 

My conclusion is that you will absolutely need to pay attention to your room acoustics regardless of the speakers you choose to use. While Kii will make the problems lesser than most speakers, the room will nevertheless wreak havoc on your sound quality if given half a chance.

[Emlin]

Thanks. I will want full details of your room though. And thanks for your personal opinions, which are just that.

[firedog]

2 hours ago, Emlin said:

Thanks. I will want full details of your room though. And thanks for your personal opinions, which are just that.

That is really over dismissive and excuse me for saying so, not well informed. It's not "just his personal opinion". Ask Kii - I guarantee you that they will be the first to agree that the Kiis don't defeat room acoustics. 

 

The StupidOne is correct: the cardoid dispersal pattern and the time alignment of the drivers mean that you have much less "junk" sound echoing around the room than with traditional speakers - but that doesn't change room the essential room acoustics. It just means the Kiis give the room "less to work with" when it messes with the sound that reaches our ears. That's why the Kiis sound so much cleaner and clearer than almost everything else.

 

Like many rooms, mine has a strong bass node - in my room at around 40 hz. The Kiis can't change that. If they put out sound at a frequency that excites the node, I get a big bass boost at that frequency. DRC or some other method is needed to fix that. The Kiis can't do it on their own. It has nothing directly to do with the cardoid dispersal eto., or lack thereof. 

[firedog]

3 hours ago, TheStupidOne said:

 

My conclusion is that you will absolutely need to pay attention to your room acoustics regardless of the speakers you choose to use. While Kii will make the problems lesser than most speakers, the room will nevertheless wreak havoc on your sound quality if given half a chance.

 I think you are overstating your case here. The Kiis deal with several common problems to do with in room sound perception from speakers. So in many rooms you are left with relatively minor problems and not the results of room "havoc". For many people the Kiis mitigate the problems enough that any additional improvements that panels or DRC can add are small. They exist, but aren't major. 

[Saburo]

In my room you still have to pay attention to early reflections from the mid/highs, bass issues are just about mitigated with DSP/cardioid response. Mine is a typ audiophile setup listening mid to far field. bottom line, DSP as its employed in the Kii Three is not a panacea for everything incl some room issues but a invaluable tool nonetheless.

[TheStupidOne]

22 minutes ago, firedog said:

 I think you are overstating your case here. The Kiis deal with several common problems to do with in room sound perception from speakers. So in many rooms you are left with relatively minor problems and not the results of room "havoc". For many people the Kiis mitigate the problems enough that any additional improvements that panels or DRC can add are small. They exist, but aren't major. 

I don't think I overstate my case, which is simply to show that room acoustics will affect all speakers and therefore need proper attention and consideration.

"If given half a chance, the room will wreak havoc" is quite a relative term - and in my example the very worst of scenarios is used, not by choice but by necessity - where the speakers measured are close to a corner and listening position is by the back wall.

 

Quite a big difference compared to a normal speaker, but still no miracle.

 

 

3 hours ago, Emlin said:

 l want to explain that room acoustics doesn't change based on which speakers are playing.

 

If you put half of the energy into the room whilst maintaining the same SPL at the listening position, you reckon that that's not going to be audible? Plus, via the cardiode, early reflections will be much more benign.

I've shown through measurements that the reflections are much more benign given exact same placement (measured back-to-back). You see quite clearly in the impulse responses that Kii is avoiding quite a bit of delayed energy. Just not all, nor enough to make the reflections inaudible.

 

 

2 hours ago, Emlin said:

Thanks. I will want full details of your room though. And thanks for your personal opinions, which are just that.

There's no personal opinion with these measurements. You can choose to understand what I'm showing or you can choose not to. Physics doesn't really care

 

How the room looks doesn't matter, it's the same for both speakers. And the room tells the same story with both, acoustics matter. Alot in my case.

[baconbrain]

13 hours ago, Cazzesman said:

Good afternoon fellow Kii 3 owners 😀   Damn I am so happy I can now say that out loud.   Woohoo!!!!!

 

Picked them up Lunch time Monday and on getting home I had music in an hour or so.    Slow and steady wins the race I'm told.     I had to put the stands together for starters.   Heavy mothers.

 

AES from Mutec USB 3 into the Kii 3.    12 months ago I was in Japan and came across a pretty decent Audio store in Shibuya.  They had a number of AES 110ohm cables for sale so I snapped one up even though I had no use for it at the time.  My wife said....."You can put it in the box with the other 100 cables".  She's a cynical women at times 😀

 

She knows the old adage..............."he who dies with the most cables wins".    Being a Quilter she knows the adage as...........

"She who dies with the most material wins".     She is so far in front I have no hope in that race.

 

I took great pleasure in telling her I used the cable.  She grinned and wandered off.   Small victories after 30 Years. 🤗

 

Set them up in general situ and played with the Controller, getting my head around what it did.    Used them with the TV that night and even the wife commented about the sound clarity.   There's a win right there IMHO.

 

Tuesday morning was proper play day.   I had a 4pm start for work so plenty of time I thought................thought?   

I removed my previous speakers from the area and went about placement and the tweaking, tweaking, tweaking, tweaking.......damn this Controller is a trap for young players when you can play music and instantly adjust stuff from you lounge chair.    I like the 4 metre Cat6 cables that came with the Speakers. 

 

My phone rang and it was someone from work with a question.   Looked at my watch..........@#$%^!!!!    3pm.    I am well aware of the PC Black Hole Syndrome (BHS) and I now have Kii 3 BHS.    Probably not a bad 'rash to get' all things considered. 🤩

 

Quick tidy up and set everything via the Controller so that when the beloved got home all she had to do was turn the TV to on and 'Abracadabra' let there be sound.     I get a text message later that evening to say....'You done good".     Enough said, praise galore.

 

How do they sound........................that's not a question Kii 3 owners say.    What they say is............."How #$%^ good do they sound!!!"

The Kii 3's are a statement not a question.

 

I won't bore the converted with superlatives............you know the gist.     Bruno and Co are pretty damn smart folks and I am happy I could give them some $$ towards their retirement.

 

As I type this I am listening to Paper Airplane by Alison Krauss and Union Station.    And I am grinning like an idiot.  

 

Can't wait to tweak some more.....................that way leads to insanity I suspect.

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

 

 

Enjoy them! They are really fantastic speakers imo!

 

Btw., I have added most of your playlist (95%) to the Tidal KII Community one referenced on page 25.

[Bernstein]

1 hour ago, baconbrain said:

Enjoy them! They are really fantastic speakers imo!

 

Btw., I have added most of your playlist (95%) to the Tidal KII Community one referenced on page 25.

I enjoyed your playlist a lot. One proposal: rather than adding songs which aren't already be listened aka verified 🤣 with the KIIs, I would prefer if you could only add songs which sounds really good as a benchmark playlist. Just a proposal. 

[baconbrain]

20 minutes ago, Bernstein said:

I enjoyed your playlist a lot. One proposal: rather than adding songs which aren't already be listened aka verified 🤣 with the KIIs, I would prefer if you could only add songs which sounds really good as a benchmark playlist. Just a proposal. 

Thanks and point taken. The only difficult part about that is that the tastes vary so it is a bit challenging to find a list which sounds "really good" for everybody. 

[Bernstein]

11 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

Thanks and point taken. The only difficult part about that is that the tastes vary so it is a bit challenging to find a list which sounds "really good" for everybody. 

 

Yes not an easy task. Nevertheless good approach and looking forward to explore new music. Everyone can also create their own „good to go“ playlist picking songs from your playlist. 

[baconbrain]

1 minute ago, Bernstein said:

 

Yes not an easy task. Nevertheless good approach and looking forward to explore new music. Everyone can also create their own „good to go“ playlist picking songs from your playlist. 

Exactly, and if there are any you would like to add, just let me know.

[Bernstein]

1 minute ago, baconbrain said:

Exactly, and if there are any you would like to add, just let me know.

 

Oh: there are qobuz playlists of KII provided on FB. 

 

https://open.qobuz.com/playlist/2300473

 

https://open.qobuz.com/playlist/2186759

[phosphorein]

7 hours ago, firedog said:

 I think you are overstating your case here. The Kiis deal with several common problems to do with in room sound perception from speakers. So in many rooms you are left with relatively minor problems and not the results of room "havoc". For many people the Kiis mitigate the problems enough that any additional improvements that panels or DRC can add are small. They exist, but aren't major. 

 

Spot on here. I've found that Dirac Live does not significantly improve the sound when the Kii's are set up properly in the room.

[fpalm69]

How do I get the playlist into Roon?