Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[firedog]

3 hours ago, baconbrain said:

 

Sometimes I wonder how transparent the Kii's really are to upstream changes. My old Devialet seemed to be much more revealing ..., 

Or that isn't it at all. The Kii Controller has galvanic isolation, so maybe those USB devices just don't do much for them. 

[baconbrain]

2 hours ago, firedog said:

Or that isn't it at all. The Kii Controller has galvanic isolation, so maybe those USB devices just don't do much for them. 

Point taken. Still, I have the impression that the Kii‘s seem to be quite impervious to subtle changes, such as sample rate, phase of the power chords, and quality of the interconnects (ethernet) between the speakers.

 

Perhaps it‘s just my hearing that is not really noticing these details anymore, or my memory is playing tricks on me, but I seem to remember with other systems I have owned, that the above examples where much more noticeable when changed.

 

 

[firedog]

46 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

Point taken. Still, I have the impression that the Kii‘s seem to be quite impervious to subtle changes, such as sample rate, phase of the power chords, and quality of the interconnects (ethernet) between the speakers.

 

Perhaps it‘s just my hearing that is not really noticing these details anymore, or my memory is playing tricks on me, but I seem to remember with other systems I have owned, that the above examples where much more noticeable when changed.

 

 

As far as sample rate, I think the Kiis with their internal SRC, etc., are designed to be indifferent.
I'd be shocked if they are truly "indifferent" to actual changes-as opposed to imagined ones- as they seem to be much more revealing of what's on a recording than about 99% of systems. 

[baconbrain]

11 minutes ago, firedog said:

As far as sample rate, I think the Kiis with their internal SRC, etc., are designed to be indifferent.
I'd be shocked if they are truly "indifferent" to actual changes-as opposed to imagined ones- as they seem to be much more revealing of what's on a recording than about 99% of systems. 

 

Now you have me thinking, and I ask myself, if I had ever heard a recording with the Kii‘s that I just couldn‘t listen to ....?

[firedog]

21 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

 

Now you have me thinking, and I ask myself, if I had ever heard a recording with the Kii‘s that I just couldn‘t listen to ....?

I haven’t. But I do find that some non acoustic recordings sound too bright to me, and I tone them down a bit with DSP EQ. I almost never find acoustic music like jazz or classical that I feel needs that treatment. I think it is just due to the modern techniques that purposely make the sound bright. 

[baconbrain]

23 minutes ago, firedog said:

I haven’t. But I do find that some non acoustic recordings sound too bright to me, and I tone them down a bit with DSP EQ. I almost never find acoustic music like jazz or classical that I feel needs that treatment. I think it is just due to the modern techniques that purposely make the sound bright. 

 

Agree, and now thinking in retrospect, that‘s exactly the reason why I prefer the Kii‘s to any of my previous systems. They leave the emotion in the music while not being „painfully“ revealing. 

[simonp]

I use the Ultrarendu/iso regen with the kii but if I pick out the iso regen it is less engaging. Also the Lush 2 is something I found hard to do without.

Kii audio uses often the innuos streamers. I would like to hear them on the kii.

Which steamers do you use on the kii?

[fpalm69]

Sonore Signature Rendu SE optical with opticalModule is the best so far.  OpticalRendu was so good I upgraded to the Signature.

Very curious to try the Innous.

Previously had the SOtM trio, very nice but not comparable to the Rendu optical.

Straight from the Roon Nucleus is OK but you really need a DDC to get the best SQ.

I find the Kii system to be very responsive to upstream changes or cable swaps.  This includes power conditioners and cables.  Have not found a pwr conditioner that improved the SQ.  

I use Supra USB, Ethernet and power cables.  Great value for the performance.

[baconbrain]

55 minutes ago, simonp said:

I use the Ultrarendu/iso regen with the kii but if I pick out the iso regen it is less engaging. Also the Lush 2 is something I found hard to do without.

Kii audio uses often the innuos streamers. I would like to hear them on the kii.

Which steamers do you use on the kii?

 

I absolutely love my Zenith SE. As a matter of fact, I have been so impressed with it, that I have decided to purchase a statement, which should arrive in approx. 2 weeks time. Can‘t wait ...

 

Am also a Lush (version 1) owner.

[Bernstein]

4 hours ago, baconbrain said:

Point taken. Still, I have the impression that the Kii‘s seem to be quite impervious to subtle changes, such as sample rate, phase of the power chords, and quality of the interconnects (ethernet) between the speakers.

 

Perhaps it‘s just my hearing that is not really noticing these details anymore, or my memory is playing tricks on me, but I seem to remember with other systems I have owned, that the above examples where much more noticeable when changed.

 

 

What you are experiencing is very good electronic design. I am happy about your observation which means that the KII are "immune" to these "changes" or "tunings" and sound "good" in a lot of different setups. 

[phosphorein]

2 hours ago, simonp said:

I use the Ultrarendu/iso regen with the kii but if I pick out the iso regen it is less engaging. Also the Lush 2 is something I found hard to do without.

Kii audio uses often the innuos streamers. I would like to hear them on the kii.

Which steamers do you use on the kii?

 

Raspberry pi and HiFiberry Digi+.

[fas42]

6 hours ago, baconbrain said:

Point taken. Still, I have the impression that the Kii‘s seem to be quite impervious to subtle changes, such as sample rate, phase of the power chords, and quality of the interconnects (ethernet) between the speakers.

 

Perhaps it‘s just my hearing that is not really noticing these details anymore, or my memory is playing tricks on me, but I seem to remember with other systems I have owned, that the above examples where much more noticeable when changed.

 

 

 

Quite a simple principle is involved: the closer a rig gets to being 'correct', and robust, the less you hear distortions being added by issues in the playback chain - all you are hearing is what's on the recording, which is firmly locked in an invariable state - unless the source is analogue, of course .

 

If the system sound keeps changing, by every thing you slightly alter, then it indicates that the engineering was not done well enough ... you are just adjusting the nature of the audible distortion being added, by varying things.

[simonp]

I read some contradictions about the digital source. Some with $500 and $10000.

John Darko review of the innuos was clear about the differencies 

I was at a demo from dutch and dutch they used a lumin mini streamer it sounded spectaculair but not very enjoyable. A very sharp sound and a not very natural mid.

They kii sound very nice with a nice digital source but I believe you can also hurt them or your ears with a bad streamer, but that is of coarse my perception. 

[baconbrain]

1 hour ago, simonp said:

I read some contradictions about the digital source. Some with $500 and $10000.

John Darko review of the innuos was clear about the differencies 

I was at a demo from dutch and dutch they used a lumin mini streamer it sounded spectaculair but not very enjoyable. A very sharp sound and a not very natural mid.

They kii sound very nice with a nice digital source but I believe you can also hurt them or your ears with a bad streamer, but that is of coarse my perception. 

 

Good video. I like John's style.

[Bernstein]

I have bought the DigiOne Signature, because it has a very low jitter and can be tuned with an uptone Ultracap 1.2, which is way ahead of traditional toroidal LPS. Maybe worth trying? DigiOne beats a lot of other gear times more expensive. 

[Emlin]

1 minute ago, Bernstein said:

I have bought the DigiOne Signature, because it has a very low jitter and can be tuned with an uptone Ultracap 1.2, which is way ahead of traditional toroidal LPS. Maybe worth trying? DigiOne beats a lot of other gear times more expensive. 

How low do you think jitter needs to be before you can't hear it?

[Bernstein]

11 minutes ago, Emlin said:

How low do you think jitter needs to be before you can't hear it?

 

What I was trying to say is, that the design very well done with efficiency in mind (using RPI as endpoint feeding I2C) and that the measurements show very good results (there are some reviews which you can find on google). Soundwise it is compared to endpoints in 1000-2000€ range and adding a very good power supply will enhance it further. 

[Emlin]

4 minutes ago, Bernstein said:

 

What I was trying to say is, that the design very well done with efficiency in mind (using RPI as endpoint feeding I2C) and that the measurements show very good results (there are some reviews which you can find on google). Soundwise it is compared to endpoints in 1000-2000€ range and adding a very good power supply will enhance it further. 

You misunderstood me. My fault, I'm sure, but in any competently designed modern digital component, jitter is already so low as to be inaudible. There is no need to reduce it further.

[Emlin]

2 minutes ago, Emlin said:

You misunderstood me. My fault, I'm sure, but in any competently designed modern digital component, jitter is already so low as to be inaudible. There is no need to reduce it further.

 

Sorry, it was me who was misunderstanding. 

[simonp]

7 hours ago, Bernstein said:

 

What I was trying to say is, that the design very well done with efficiency in mind (using RPI as endpoint feeding I2C) and that the measurements show very good results (there are some reviews which you can find on google). Soundwise it is compared to endpoints in 1000-2000€ range and adding a very good power supply will enhance it further. 

I had a visite from another Kii owner he used the bluesound node 2. When he heard my setup with the Ultrarendu he was stunned,  the difference was so big.  He was so happy with sound of the Kii and hearing that this was also possible on his setup.

And now a want to make some changes. Playing your files local would make life a bit easier. And it may sound better, just a matter of trying.

[TheStupidOne]

How could he tell that it was the streamer and not the acoustics that made the massive difference?

[Mazza]

5 hours ago, TheStupidOne said:

How could he tell that it was the streamer and not the acoustics that made the massive difference?

 

presumably, one would only alter one-parameter at a time....so change the streamer but leave the room acoustics alone until happy with the former? 

[Cazzesman]

On 7/18/2019 at 5:37 PM, Cazzesman said:

Maths was never my strong suit.   Kii tubes are 10cm in diameter and 65cm long.   That tube Volume is 5.1 litres

 

https://www.aqua-calc.com/calculate/volume-to-weight

 

So this calculator suggests dry sand for 5.1 litres has a weight of 8.2kg x 2 is 16.4 kg of dry sand.    Does that sound right to the Math's boffins?

 

A 20kg bag of dry sand should see me just about right.

 

I guess I will let you know.

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

Bought a 20kg bag of fine white sand used for patio brick grout.   Followed the instructions I found on the net to dry it out.

 

220 degree oven for 1 hour.    I had some large BBQ foil meat trays to use.    3 rounds of 2 trays at a time, about 2 inches deep in each.    Put the 2 trays in and after 30 mins gave each a sift and turnover.   Kept the stove door slightly ajar during the 1 hour process as instructed.    

 

Worked a treat and will fill up the Kii stands tomorrow.    What surprised me was how long the sand held the extreme heat, out of the oven.   I had a 15 litre pot that I put the sand in once dry.  Even after a few hours the outside of the pot was too hot to touch.

 

I will let you know if the 20kg fills the barrel's.

 

Regards Cazzesman

[AMR/iFi audio]

On 7/22/2019 at 4:32 PM, firedog said:

so maybe those USB devices just don't do much for them. 

 

Might be the case.

[Cazzesman]

Poured my dry sand into the Kii Stands today.    Might be placebo effect but I'm thinking there is a more focused sound.    The best way to describe it is there is no ringing in the air.   I'm not sure I ever noticed ringing before but it just sounds somewhat quieter and on point.

 

Some female vocals that occasionally hit a note that 'bit' now seems more controlled.    A song by London Grammar called Rooting for You has a few of those notes from singer Hannah Reid that are now under control to my old ears.

 

Regardless, I highly doubt adding the sand has hurt the sound in any way.  

 

The 20 kg bag, once dried, easily filled the columns.  Probably had 2 or 3 kg leftover.    $7 Australian dollars well spent.   That will be about $1.50 in US Dollars. 🙁

 

Regards Cazzesman