Kii Three - my impressions and pro reviews

[TheStupidOne]

Not back-to-back, but I recall Avantgarde Zero xd as far more "in your face" than Kii.

[TheStupidOne]

On 3/14/2019 at 11:15 PM, baconbrain said:

I don‘t know wether it was the the new flagship streamer, the basic room treatment measures, or a combination of both, he put into place during the last upgrade, but the sound imo is now heavenly. 

I would put money on the room treatments, because those speakers mentioned doesn't really measure very well.

 

Just finished treating the ceiling in my room and holy smokes what a difference it makes to the sound. Just far more intricate details and warmth from the speakers now.

 

Fix the room, people! Best investment one can make!

[baconbrain]

2 hours ago, moby1977 said:

Hello 

 

Anyone compared the Kii with Avantgarde Zero ?

Both are on my.shortlist (and the 8c) .

 

Thanks 

Alex 

I personally like the Avantgarde sound, and honestly if I would have the space for them, it would be a tough choice. Any chance of finding a dealer who would accommodate you auditioning them within your home?

[moby1977]

I wish but in the country I am living ( Hong Kong)  home demo is impossible or very difficult even for very light gears so for speakers...

I have the space for the Avantgarde even if my listening distance is not that big ( around 2.5m) .According to my two listening tests they need a bit of space as indeed they are a bit "in your face". 

The auditorium where i listened the Kii was unfortunately very different to the shape of my room : very large space, speakers were very far from each other and the room was very damped. It was difficult to "feel" the music in those conditions and have a proper opinion...

 

[AMR/iFi audio]

12 hours ago, TheStupidOne said:

Fix the room, people! Best investment one can make!

 

Agreed, room sorting should always be high on priorities list.

[Gastronaut]

Few days ago I had a chance to try/test https://www.kempelektroniksshop.nl/blue-horizon-mains-noise-analyzer.html.

Well, the result was disappointing. Very "dirty" power, but I knew that more or less. So, the question is what you use to "clean" your AC power, and what is suitable for the Kii's? I have tried Audience Power Conditioner once and the change was positive, but not sure is the amount of change worth that amount of money. 

[firedog]

You can see in my sig what I use. Kii told me it's just something each person has to try and see what works or doesn't. That makes sense, as every setup is different. 
If you want to try something inexpensive, the little iFi AC iPurifiers seem to work. Buying 2 or three isn't a  big outlay. I asked iFi and they claimed they don't do anything that limits power delivery to the Kiis. 

[AMR/iFi audio]

8 minutes ago, firedog said:

I asked iFi and they claimed they don't do anything that limits power delivery to the Kiis. 

 

Yup! Plus, our return policy is generous. If our product or two don't meet one's expectations, there are no issues with full refunds. 

[Mazza]

2 hours ago, Gastronaut said:

Few days ago I had a chance to try/test https://www.kempelektroniksshop.nl/blue-horizon-mains-noise-analyzer.html.

Well, the result was disappointing. Very "dirty" power, but I knew that more or less. So, the question is what you use to "clean" your AC power, and what is suitable for the Kii's? I have tried Audience Power Conditioner once and the change was positive, but not sure is the amount of change worth that amount of money. 

 

The Kii’s have *lots* of SMPS’s in them. I often wonder how much they are responsible for generating noise on the mains?

 

 Did you do any measurements within them active and not active by any chance?

[fpalm69]

I tried an Isotek Polaris power strip and that did not work out.  Lost dynamics...plugged them back in the wall...much better.  I do have Supra power cables that I made with pure copper plugs and floated the screen (Faraday Cage) and that seems to help a tiny bit compared to the stock cables.  These were the newer silver/copper Supra power cables.

I tried a couple of large balanced transformers (Equitec)  but that did not seem to help either.  Maybe the Kii is somewhat immune to line noise by design or has a built-in filter?  My other Hypex amps do not seem to respond to line filtering/conditioning either.

[firedog]

53 minutes ago, Mazza said:

 

The Kii’s have *lots* of SMPS’s in them. I often wonder how much they are responsible for generating noise on the mains?

 

 

Why? Just because common audiophile wisdom says SMPS are noisy doesn’t mean it’s necessarily  true. There is zero problem with the technology. The problem is only with inexpensive, not particularly well made ones. No reason to assume the PS’s are particularly noisy or that some other type of PS would necessarily be quieter. 

[fpalm69]

2 minutes ago, firedog said:

Why? Just because common audiophile wisdom says SMPS are noisy doesn’t mean it’s necessarily  true. There is zero problem with the technology. The problem is only with inexpensive, not particularly well made ones. No reason to assume the PS’s are particularly noisy or that some other type of PS would necessarily be quieter. 

firedog,  did you use the iFi AC iPurifiers on the Kii's?  Did it sound better?  I have two in my Amazon cart.

[firedog]

1 minute ago, fpalm69 said:

firedog,  did you use the iFi AC iPurifiers on the Kii's?  Did it sound better?  I have two in my Amazon cart.

I have them on the line/power strip feeding my system to try and separate the digital and analog sides that are  downline from the wall. Seems to make a small improvement in SQ. I also like them for some of their other features and they certainly don’t do any harm. 

[Mazza]

9 minutes ago, firedog said:

Why? Just because common audiophile wisdom says SMPS are noisy doesn’t mean it’s necessarily  true. There is zero problem with the technology. The problem is only with inexpensive, not particularly well made ones. No reason to assume the PS’s are particularly noisy or that some other type of PS would necessarily be quieter. 

 

9 minutes ago, firedog said:

Why? Just because common audiophile wisdom says SMPS are noisy  .....,,

 

@firedog.....which is why I asked the question if there were any with and without measurements. 

[Ralf11]

On 3/14/2019 at 5:48 AM, firedog said:

You have a fantastic system. Probably better than 99.9% of the setups in existence. Can't you just be happy with it?
 

 

 

Noooooo!!!!!!

[Gastronaut]

No measurements. Just experience with the Audience conditioner!

 

[baconbrain]

17 hours ago, Gastronaut said:

Few days ago I had a chance to try/test https://www.kempelektroniksshop.nl/blue-horizon-mains-noise-analyzer.html.

Well, the result was disappointing. Very "dirty" power, but I knew that more or less. So, the question is what you use to "clean" your AC power, and what is suitable for the Kii's? I have tried Audience Power Conditioner once and the change was positive, but not sure is the amount of change worth that amount of money. 

 

13 hours ago, fpalm69 said:

I tried an Isotek Polaris power strip and that did not work out.  Lost dynamics...plugged them back in the wall...much better.  I do have Supra power cables that I made with pure copper plugs and floated the screen (Faraday Cage) and that seems to help a tiny bit compared to the stock cables.  These were the newer silver/copper Supra power cables.

I tried a couple of large balanced transformers (Equitec)  but that did not seem to help either.  Maybe the Kii is somewhat immune to line noise by design or has a built-in filter?  My other Hypex amps do not seem to respond to line filtering/conditioning either.

 

My experience has been very similar to fpalm69's. Active filtering seems to negatively impact the dynamics, while straight out of the socket does make them susceptible to noise. The best overall result for me has been passive filtering given that I also have a "dirty" LED ceiling lamp in my listening room.

[Mazza]

48 minutes ago, baconbrain said:

 

 

My experience has been very similar to fpalm69's. Active filtering seems to negatively impact the dynamics, while straight out of the socket does make them susceptible to noise. The best overall result for me has been passive filtering given that I also have a "dirty" LED ceiling lamp in my listening room.

 

I have moved to Audioquest products that combine active and passive filtering/noise reduction. Prior to that I had a full VertexAQ, all passive, filtering system. The VertexAQ system was good [really good] at filtering out some of the mains crap, but not all. Crank up the volume really high, with no music playing, and you could hear it; hiss, crackles, pops 

 

The Audioquest does the filtering of the noise better, crank up the volume and the background is inky-black silent. Because of its big toroidal transformers and capacitive storage, the AQ also helps with voltage dips and power swings from the amps in the Kii's.

 

All-in all, the AQ has made an immediate, noticeable improvement over the VertexAQ's, which are no shabby product in themselves. Dynamics are definitely not affected by the AQ system; the opposite is the truth TBH possibly, in-part, because it can even out voltage swings and current peak demands.

 

YMMV!

[bobfa]

3 hours ago, Mazza said:

All-in all, the AQ has made an immediate, noticeable improvement over the VertexAQ's, which are no shabby product in themselves. Dynamics are definitely not affected by the AQ system; the opposite is the truth TBH possibly, in-part, because it can even out voltage swings and current peak demands.

 

Mazza,

 

Can you tell us which AQ filter you are using and did you change any power cables?

 

bob

[Mazza]

@bobfa

 

No problem .....  yes, I changed everything [mostly for 'synergy' but partly for the reasons I give below]

 

I now use Audioquest Niagara 7000 "conditioner" [I managed to get one ex-demo for not much more cost than their 5000] with NRG-1000-HC mains lead to the conditioner and normal current NRG-10's to the speakers and to my music server. The mains leads have since been discontinued & replaced by their Storm range but I won't be changing to them anytime soon. My wallet is still too bruised and battered!

 

Before that I was using the VertexAQ Hi-Rez Raga Distribution block, fed by their Roraima Silver Plus HC mains lead. The speakers and music server were fed from the distribution block with Roraima Silver Plus mains leads [not the HC version]. I tried their Anoto filter [DC blocker], on loan,  but it didn't make any difference to the noise. That's when I looked at the AQ system

 

So a complete change to the system. Interestingly, I briefly tried using one of the Roraima's to connect the AQ Niagara to my music server, but it induced some very low level buzzing *at* the AQ Niagara which is supposed to be an indication of some DC-offset being present. The AQ will deal with such but when I removed the Roraima and used a conventional chord it disappeared. I wondered if there was an incompatibility between the filters used in the VertexAQ and the Niagara. Whatever, there was no perceptible difference in SQ. I have since completed the set-up with AQ's NRG cables throughout, though the change to an NRG-10 for the music server made only a barely perceptible difference.

 

Hope this helps.

[AMR/iFi audio]

9 hours ago, baconbrain said:

Active filtering seems to negatively impact the dynamics

 

Many enthusiasts we know would agree with this, yes. 

[phosphorein]

I’m using a Vertiv PSI5-1500 for each Kii. This provides true sine wave power as well as filtered output for anomalous power events. I do not hear any deterioration in the sound and no humming at high volume with no input.

 

[bobfa]

4 hours ago, phosphorein said:

I’m using a Vertiv PSI5-1500 for each Kii. This provides true sine wave power as well as filtered output for anomalous power events. I do not hear any deterioration in the sound and no humming at high volume with no input.

 

Interesting idea.  I am a bit confused though.  The Veritiv is not an online UPS so the sine-wave inverter is only running when on battery.  IF I am reading the documentation properly.  Have you tried running the system with and without AC mains connected?    

 

https://www.vertiv.com/globalassets/products/critical-power/uninterruptible-power-supplies-ups/liebert-psi5-ups-data-sheet-sl-23321.pdf

 

See this as a reference:

 

https://www.backupbatterypower.com/collections/online-double-conversion

 

 

[Mazza]

14 hours ago, AMR/iFi audio said:

 

Many enthusiasts we know would agree with this, yes. 

 

It seems to me that just as many would disagree too.....it seems that the commonly reported  reason is usually around the ability of the active filter [which is usually a transformer driven power supply with various other gubbins] to respond to the voltage and current swings for the  amplifier/speaker demands. If they can't cope then compressed dynamics is the probable outcome.

 

So mixed results dependant upon the kit. Hence, YMMV! It's always worth a loaner and try-out if you think you may have benefits from such a route.

 

[phosphorein]

14 hours ago, bobfa said:

Interesting idea.  I am a bit confused though.  The Veritiv is not an online UPS so the sine-wave inverter is only running when on battery.  IF I am reading the documentation properly.  Have you tried running the system with and without AC mains connected?    

 

https://www.vertiv.com/globalassets/products/critical-power/uninterruptible-power-supplies-ups/liebert-psi5-ups-data-sheet-sl-23321.pdf

 

See this as a reference:

 

https://www.backupbatterypower.com/collections/online-double-conversion

 

 

 

The PSI5 is a line-interactive UPS which also provides auto voltage regulation capability without involving the battery/inverter. This unit only brings the fan online when running off the battery in contrast to dual conversion UPS's which run the fan continuously. Hence it is suitable for my office/music room.

 

I have indeed listened to the Kiis w/wo AC mains (via UPS) and without the power filtering/regulation (direct to mains). Given the somewhat mature state of these ears, I cannot note any negatives of having the UPS inline. Although Thomas of Kii informed me that the Kiis did not require any special treatment of the AC supply, I resorted to using the UPS because of sporadic power outages and transients. One such episode crashed the Kii master during its reboot. Better safe than....