Objective proof the UpTone Regen ISO can improve a DAC's output(*)

[lmitche]

Just now, pkane2001 said:

 

It would be nice to know if LPS-1 is needed for proper ISO-R operation. A $325 ISO-R price tag is significantly different than the $655 bundle with LPS-1.

 

Yes, of course, but if you need to think of the $655 bundle in the context of the cost of the entire system.  For a $1000 system it's probably overkill, for a $40k system, it's more than reasonable. Everyone has to determine where that line is for themselves.

[elcorso]

12 minutes ago, lmitche said:

I can't think of a single person, of the 10 or so people I know that own a ISO REGEN, that uses anything but an LPS-1 for power,  Amir's assumption is that everyone chooses to purchase the ISO REGEN with a Meanwell is incorrect.  The Meanwell is an option at time of purchase. Perhaps Alex can tell us the the ratio of those that do so.

 

Again the design of the test is incorrect, or incomplete.

 

Completely agree.

 

It was designed in the worst of circumstances (without a LPSU).

 

I guess Alex offers the opportunity to bur the IR alone for people who already have an appropriate LPSU, like some of my friends.

 

On the other hand the Beringher DAC is a cheap unit, who will invest $600 to improve it?  I'm not saying that this DAC has a bad SQ, but that Amir went to extremes, he went.

 

I repeat to the extreme, I do not listen to oscilloscopes, but music 

 

Roch

[elcorso]

5 minutes ago, mansr said:

In the real world we call this "bait and switch."

 

You are a very good digital engineer, but very bad (or very good) in marketing 

 

Please read my previous post.

 

Roch

[lmitche]

10 minutes ago, mansr said:

In the real world we call this "bait and switch."

Bait and Switch: 

the action (generally illegal) of advertising goods that are an apparent bargain, with the intention of substituting inferior or more expensive goods.

 

With the ISO REGEN the choice is up to the customer at the time of purchase.  The choices are clear. There is no substitution of an inferior product or more expensive product.  You get what you pay for, an ISO REGEN.

 

You have three power supply choices, Nothing(BYO), Meanwell or LPS-1 at the time of purchase.

[Jud]

6 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

But that's ok. Since you will just need to pair with a $350 DAC and for $1000 you are at the ultimate in noise reduced, accurate, veil lifting, audio reproduction. 

 

Don't know about ultimate - very likely not - but I'm likin' it a lot. 

 

[lmitche]

Just now, Jud said:

 

Don't know about ultimate - very likely not - but I'm likin' it a lot. 

 

 

[Jud]

Anyone tried to duplicate the test setup to see whether the proposed power supply interaction is replicable?

[lmitche]

Me too, I have a $550 DAC with $1000 worth of LPS-1, ISO REGEN, USPCB and Lush cable.  It sounds awesome! Much better then the $3500 DACs I've owned.

[pkane2001]

Just now, lmitche said:

Yes, of course, but if you need to think of the $655 bundle in the context of the cost of the entire system.  For a $1000 system it's probably overkill, for a $40k system, it's more than reasonable. Everyone has to determine where that line is for themselves.

 

Yes, which is exactly why Amir's measurements are useful, at least to me. $655 is almost the price of my DAC, and I can't see spending that much money on a USB clean-up device. $325 was much more within the realm of possible  I did consider buying ISO-R, but was holding out to see some measurements. Seems to me that was the right move.

 

[scan80269]

25 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Yes, which is exactly why Amir's measurements are useful, at least to me. $655 is almost the price of my DAC, and I can't see spending that much money on a USB clean-up device. $325 was much more within the realm of possible  I did consider buying ISO-R, but was holding out to see some measurements. Seems to me that was the right move.

 

A battery costs much less than an LPS-1 and should serve just as well to break an AC leakage loop.  The LPS-1 is not the only solution, though it is a premium solution that brings some great specs besides AC leakage firewalling.

 

Measurable differences are not always audible (e.g. the bumps of -110dBFS 60Hz & harmonics shown in Amir's graphs with ISO REGEN - confirmed by several here on this thread alone), and audible differences are not always demonstrable with measurements.  In other words, our measurement capabilities & methods (e.g. AP & FFT) are currently not advanced enough to reveal everything our ears can discern. 

 

To insist on seeing some difference in some measurement as the only criterion for the merit of a product is one of Amir's biggest fallacies.  He is an audio scientist or "specophile", not an audiophile.  Audiophiles place their faith on the most sophisticated audio instruments available: their own ears.

 

Great engineering plus critical listening are essential to delivering good sound, but great specs? not so much.

 

[lmitche]

28 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Yes, which is exactly why Amir's measurements are useful, at least to me. $655 is almost the price of my DAC, and I can't see spending that much money on a USB clean-up device. $325 was much more within the realm of possible  I did consider buying ISO-R, but was holding out to see some measurements. Seems to me that was the right move.

 

After playing with CA for three+ years I think of the entire digital side, PC, storage,  USB chain, DAC, upsampling and control software and power supplies as a single unit where the individual components are designed to work together. Everything seems to matter.

 

All together I have $2500 to $3000 in an audio source that competes with the best turntables and CD players in the world.  Not too bad. Plus it can be upgraded as further innovations become available. And I have no need to buy an expensive preamp.

[scan80269]

Just now, lmitche said:

After playing with CA for three+ years I think of the entire digital side, PC, storage,  USB chain, DAC, upsampling and control software and power supplies as a single unit where the individual components are designed to work together. Everything seems to matter.

 

All together I have $2500 to $3000 in an audio source that competes with the best turntables and CD players in the world.  Not too bad.

Yes, synergy is an important factor in any audio system, though it can be hard to quantify.

 

[firedog]

2 minutes ago, scan80269 said:

A battery costs much less than an LPS-1 and should serve just as well to break an AC leakage loop.  The LPS-1 is not the only solution, though it is a premium solution that brings some great specs besides AC leakage firewalling.

 

Measurable differences are not always audible (e.g. the bumps of -110dBFS 60Hz & harmonics shown in Amir's graphs with ISO-REGEN - confirmed by several here on this thread alone), and audible differences are not always demonstrable with measurements.  In other words, our measurement capabilities & methods (e.g. AP & FFT) are currently not advanced enough to reveal everything our ears can discern. 

 

To insist on seeing some difference in some measurement as the only criterion for the merit of a product is one of Amir's biggest fallacies.  He is an audio scientist or "specophile", not an audiophile.  Audiophiles place their faith on the most sophisticated audio instruments available: their own ears.

 

Great engineering plus critical listening are essential to delivering good sound, but great specs? not so much.

 

All of that is sort of irrelevant. If Amir's tests are properly done, then he has a good point-the the IR isn't doing what it claims to -or at least not all of what it claims to. The idea that he should be using an LPS-1 to test the IR makes no sense, as Uptone sells the device with the Meanwell and nowhere claims that the IR won't do what they it is supposed to do when powered by the MW. 

 

[scan80269]

14 minutes ago, firedog said:

All of that is sort of irrelevant. If Amir's tests are properly done, then he has a good point-the the IR isn't doing what it claims to -or at least not all of what it claims to. The idea that he should be using an LPS-1 to test the IR makes no sense, as Uptone sells the device with the Meanwell and nowhere claims that the IR won't do what they it is supposed to do when powered by the MW. 

 

One of the disputes here is whether Amir's graphs are representative of what the ISO REGEN is supposed to do, as claimed by its manufacturer.

 

Being a USB regenerator, ISO REGEN is intended to clean up the USB signal going from source to DAC.  From measurements perspective, the measurements should be focused on quantifying the USB signal quality differences at both ends of the device.  In this regard, I have to say the eye diagrams UpTone posted for USB signals entering and exiting an ISO REGEN are highly relevant.  Crappy measured USB signal coming from source (entering ISO REGEN) converted to clean measured USB signal (exiting ISO REGEN) going to the DAC.

 

Amir's work & conclusions on ISO REGEN are not unlike doing a smog check on a new car, then using the measured results to refute the car manufacturer's claim of engine fuel efficiency.

 

[lucretius]

13 hours ago, esldude said:

Shouldn't that be spelled Sh**t.

 ... or Sch**t?

[Quadman]

So if the AP cannot connect to the Lab PSU, AP's web site is not real clear on powering the unit, then to test Alex's comment on AC leakage loop then run the test with the AP plugged into an isolation transformer, which keeps it out of the DUT's AC chain and also run the Mac laptop on battery.  Then use the meanwell SMPS on the IR and see what happens to the noise artifacts at the behringer output. If it is cleaner then it would support Alex's claim.

 

I also have to ask did anyone bother to listen to any music with the behringer both without and with the IR?  And if so what was their opinion.  Measurements are cool and I always say get the science right but final tune has to be with ears.

 

So does everybody over ASR only buy equipment that measures the best for the $ and that is that.  I remember an amp shoot out a few years back at my buddies place, he has a $100K system and we had 3 amps lined up; a Japanese SS amp ($23k) that was soniccally well regarded (it measurements were suspect at higher output wattage), a Mark Levension set of mono blocks around 100W per channel ($15K) into 8 ohms, and a Polish amp ($7K) that was new to the market that had the most impressive test bench measurements.  Well we quickly reached the conclusion that the Polish amp was the most terrible in music re-production, in fact my buddy printed a picture of a old boat anchor  and set that paper on top of the amp.  The Levension and Japanese amps were both much better and in the end I told my buddy if cost was no object to him then the Japanese amp made the most beautiful music even tho we knew at outputs above 70W it was terrible measuring.  The Levenson of course measured pretty good and sounded pretty good, but did not have that magic the japanese amp did.  He picked the Japanese amp.  Had we gone by just measurements the polish amp would have won easily.  

 

So is that what Amir's posse does, measurements rule and never trust your ears?  Wow your systems must suck, then again based on the amount of time you spend in these forums arguing that has to be the case otherwise you would be listening to music instead of arguing that measurements rule.  Get the basic science right then use your ears.  I spend over 100 hours a month listening to music (not including work or commuting, big rig only) and I don't listen every day, no fatigue here.

[mansr]

5 minutes ago, scan80269 said:

Being a USB regenerator, ISO REGEN is intended to clean up the USB signal going from source to DAC.  From measurements perspective, the measurements should be focused on quantifying the USB signal quality differences at both ends of the device.

By that logic, the green pens for painting CD edges should be judged solely by their ability to paint the CD edges green. Since they clearly do paint CD edges green, this is all the proof we need that they work exactly as advertised.

[Quadman]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

By that logic, the green pens for painting CD edges

But valid.  Uptone claims it cleans up the digital signal.  I asked long ago why not measure at the output of the IR vs. no IR.  The dac does what the dac does to the incoming signal.  Theory being cleaner in cleaner out.

[Quadman]

@pkane2001  If IR is to rich for your blood buy a used amber regen, those run under $100 now.  Power it with a chinese Linear PSU with a top quality regulator in it and it will improve the sound of your creamy gustard.

[pkane2001]

39 minutes ago, scan80269 said:

Audiophiles place their faith on the most sophisticated audio instruments available: their own ears.

 

How many mistakes do you think audiophiles have made when evaluating differences between components? How many placebos were picked over the years? How many of us swore we heard the differences caused by quantum dots or ink on the edges of a CD? How many preferred isolation platforms for their SS power amps because 'they sound better'? Or liquid interconnects, or cryogenically annealed speaker cables? Or $8K power cables? Or grounding boxes? I could go on, and on. I've been at this since the early nineties, and I've seen (and tried) all kinds of stuff.

 

One thing that has become abundantly clear to me is that while the audiophile ears are indeed, a very sophisticated instrument, audiophile brains are often not so much. And, unfortunately, the two are inseparable

 

[wwaldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, Quadman said:

@pkane2001  If IR is to rich for your blood buy a used amber regen, those run under $100 now.  Power it with a chinese Linear PSU with a top quality regulator in it and it will improve the sound of your creamy gustard.

 

I had an amber REGEN powered with a Chinese (Breeze Audio 9v R-core) LPS and it had zero effect on SQ with my NAD M51 ($1,995) DAC. Maybe my brain is no good?

[scan80269]

2 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

I had an amber REGEN powered with a Chinese (Breeze Audio 9v R-core) LPS and it had zero effect on SQ with my NAD M51 ($1,995) DAC. Maybe my ears are no good?

What was your USB source?

[lucretius]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Amir's test is based on "how sold". The ISO REGEN is sold two ways, with and without the Meanwell. With the Meanwell measures worse than with an LPS, that is expected, but as I said most people use an LPS or more specifically an LPS-1 to power the ISO REGEN.

 

Not testing with an LPS or LPS-1 is an error in the design of the test.

 

Oddly enough, the Mean Well SMPS is shipped with the LPS-1.  With something better than the Mean Well, perhaps the LPS-1 could be eliminated from the chain?

[Quadman]

5 minutes ago, wwaldmanfan said:

zero effect on SQ with my NAD M51

Exact same dac I had when the AR arrived.  My source was a macbook air.  Couldn't believe the huge sonic improvement it made in my sound.  Couple weeks later the AR had to go back to Alex and I couldn't listen to my system when it was gone.  Shortly after I built my first windows server dedicated to music and it was a huge improvement over the Macbook air.  It could be the macbook air was the issue, regardless the AR made a night and day difference with that dac and MBA.

[lmitche]

16 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

Oddly enough, the Mean Well SMPS is shipped with the LPS-1.  With something better than the Mean Well, perhaps the LPS-1 could be eliminated from the chain?

Again, the Meanwell is an optional purchase with the lps-1. I have two sigma 11 based LPSes used to power the two LPS-1s.