USB audio cracked... finally!

[Ralf11]

6 hours ago, Abtr said:

Get both (Schiit Eitr and RME ADI-2 DAC). IME, the Eitr USB interface to ADI-2 S/PDIF (coaxial input) sounds better (less/non fatiguing) than the ADI-2 USB interface. And, the Eitr has a driver for Windows that supports WASAPI exclusive mode and automatically switches sample rate. Note that this also works flawlessly with the native Mac OS X class compliant USB audio driver (UAC-2). With the RME ASIO USB driver (MADIFace) for Windows and OS X, you must switch the sample rate manually in the driver settings app, which sucks IMO.

 

Also note that the recent Windows 10 UAC-2 driver seemingly works with the ADI-2 DAC and does automatic sample rate switching, but WASAPI exclusive mode doesn't work with Tidal and the driver only works in exclusive WASAPI 'push' mode with Foobar2000. I.e., the Win10 UAC-2 driver appears to have bugs and/or severe limitations.   

 

That is a useful but troubling bit of info - I don't even like effing with different filters.

 

Sorry to hear the issue exists on OS X

[fas42]

Schiit are doing the right sort of thinking - if the usual mechanism is a nasty one to kick and squash to get into the best shape, then just do the whole thing differently - don't be dragged down in trying to comply with "the standard", make something else that ... just ... works.

 

The USB interface is a brilliant example of the type of, in-built, weakness that normally plagues audio rigs - so much effort has to go into working out "stupid stuff", that should have had a rock solid, engineering solution devised ages ago.

[Abtr]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

That is a useful but troubling bit of info - I don't even like effing with different filters.

 

Sorry to hear the issue exists on OS X

RME doesn't even view it as an issue but rather as a pro-audio feature. Anyway, with OS X you don't have to use the RME driver. The ADI-2 will play perfectly in exclusive mode and with automatic sample rate switching, using the native Mac OS X class compliant USB audio driver. (You will only need the RME driver to update the ADI-2 firmware.) With Windows however it seems you're stuck with the RME USB driver for bit perfect playback, at least until the apparent bugs of the native Windows 10 class compliant driver are fixed.. Or, you can use (e.g.) a Schiit Eitr USB to S/PDIF converter with proper WASAPI driver..

[GeneZ]

5 hours ago, manisandher said:

 

But Moffat said this about the Gen 5:

 

“Throw away your decrapifiers, regenerators, isolators, magic boxes, and all the rest of those USB band-aids... you don’t need them with our Gen 5 USB input.”

 

Guess he was wrong.

 

Mani.

 Actually... in the context he spoke he was correct.  He is now saying USB itself can be made better.  Those devises you mention were to try to counter the effects of USB as we now know it.  Gen 5 is very good at countering the negativity.  I no longer experience listener fatigue as I had with other DACs.

 

If I heard correctly..  What he wants to do is to rip out the present USB function coming from inside the PC in regards to audio, and replace it with another much simpler system that will take it steps ahead of what is now offered from the PC.  He also spoke about there being primarily only three choices for USB drivers that imprison DAC designers.  Schiit (apparently) is going to have their own software that will be propitiatory to take over the USB socket in regards to audio. 

[Summit]

10 hours ago, GeneZ said:

 Actually... in the context he spoke he was correct.  He is now saying USB itself can be made better.  Those devises you mention were to try to counter the effects of USB as we now know it.  Gen 5 is very good at countering the negativity.  I no longer experience listener fatigue as I had with other DACs.

 

If I heard correctly..  What he wants to do is to rip out the present USB function coming from inside the PC in regards to audio, and replace it with another much simpler system that will take it steps ahead of what is now offered from the PC.  He also spoke about there being primarily only three choices for USB drivers that imprison DAC designers.  Schiit (apparently) is going to have their own software that will be propitiatory to take over the USB socket in regards to audio. 

 

I don’t think so. It was clear to me and many others that he meant that nothing upstream of the Gen 5 USB would make any SQ difference, none. Many took his statement to heart at first and proclaimed the same massage to others. Lately even many of the Schiit hard core fans have admitted that the Gen 5 USB is not totally immune to what’s upstream. Good value yes, but not immune.

[GeneZ]

14 hours ago, Summit said:

 

I don’t think so. It was clear to me and many others that he meant that nothing upstream of the Gen 5 USB would make any SQ difference, none. Many took his statement to heart at first and proclaimed the same massage to others. Lately even many of the Schiit hard core fans have admitted that the Gen 5 USB is not totally immune to what’s upstream. Good value yes, but not immune.

  By "upstream" - are you referring what takes place in the PC? 

If so, I stand by what I said, unless you can further clarify what you said.

 

In case you misunderstood me.  Mike was saying that Gen 5 is one of the best available  implementations a DAC can use. That it does not require those other band aids other DACs depend on.  It was not to say it solved all the USB problems.  Just that you now can avoid all those tools that we have been implementing in a desire to do so.

[crenca]

13 hours ago, Summit said:

 

I don’t think so. It was clear to me and many others that he meant that nothing upstream of the Gen 5 USB would make any SQ difference, none. Many took his statement to heart at first and proclaimed the same massage to others. Lately even many of the Schiit hard core fans have admitted that the Gen 5 USB is not totally immune to what’s upstream. Good value yes, but not immune.

 

Like so much in Audio, it was oversold.  Is it robust?  Seems to.  Still, nothing is "totally immune".  Schiit does the balancing act between Sales language and the truth better than most in Audio in my opinion, but they get carried away sometimes two.  When you have two personalities like they do at the head...I'm surprised they don't step into it more often.

[Summit]

7 hours ago, crenca said:

 

Like so much in Audio, it was oversold.  Is it robust?  Seems to.  Still, nothing is "totally immune".  Schiit does the balancing act between Sales language and the truth better than most in Audio in my opinion, but they get carried away sometimes two.  When you have two personalities like they do at the head...I'm surprised they don't step into it more often.

 

Yep I agree.

[Summit]

7 hours ago, GeneZ said:

  By "upstream" - are you referring what takes place in the PC? 

If so, I stand by what I said, unless you can further clarify what you said.

 

In case you misunderstood me.  Mike was saying that Gen 5 is one of the best available  implementations a DAC can use. That it does not require those other band aids other DACs depend on.  It was not to say it solved all the USB problems.  Just that you now can avoid all those tools that we have been implementing in a desire to do so.

 

Upstream includes all the gears there the data or the digital audio signal is passing through before the DAC. So PC, renderer, server, cables, switches and their PSUs.  

 

IMO

[Dutch]

On 12/29/2018 at 1:48 AM, GeneZ said:

If I heard correctly..  What he wants to do is to rip out the present USB function coming from inside the PC in regards to audio, and replace it with another much simpler system that will take it steps ahead of what is now offered from the PC.  He also spoke about there being primarily only three choices for USB drivers that imprison DAC designers.  Schiit (apparently) is going to have their own software that will be propitiatory to take over the USB socket in regards to audio. 

 

What he said is they’ve developed their own USB.org certified USB interface processor (so hard- and firmware plus software as in drivers) that could replace those from XMOS etc. So it’s still USB but their own, fully controlled and understood implementation of it.

[marce]

If I was doing a digital interface where noise crossing from an external comms. port where a transceiver or phy is required then you can use a LVDS (low voltage differential signal) interface and have total isolation of the power and ground from one section to the other. In fact all you need is several data line, through a common mode choke to remove CM noise and possibly a pi (cap, ferrite, cap) filter... not much noise will get through, if you do it right, into the GHz's. SO a bespoke device would be perfect for achieving this.

[PeterSt]

1 minute ago, marce said:

If I was doing a digital interface

 

And if I was doing a digital interface I'd be doing the same, or, did what I did at first with our DAC (PCIe based).

Small problem: no PC or Laptop would understand inherently. And we have to bear in mind the out of the box usefulness. But some time soon ...

[PeterSt]

PS: I only now realize that this responds to the Schiit thing. But similar response although more emphasized from an other angle: 

 

That would be a crazy thing to do (what they propose) because it would not be compatible with anything. HENCE -no-Sch*t- Marce's better proposal.

[Blake]

On 12/29/2018 at 4:07 AM, Summit said:

 

I don’t think so. It was clear to me and many others that he meant that nothing upstream of the Gen 5 USB would make any SQ difference, none. Many took his statement to heart at first and proclaimed the same massage to others. Lately even many of the Schiit hard core fans have admitted that the Gen 5 USB is not totally immune to what’s upstream. Good value yes, but not immune.

 

I have gen5 in two different systems.  In both cases what is upstream still clearly matters, and not just a little bit.  I would wager this will also be true with Schiit’s upcoming solution.

 

By chance can you provide a link to the posts where they actually claim nothing upstream matters with gen5?  I asked this in a different thread a while back, someone provided a long thread and claimed the remark from Schiit was in the thread.  I read through  number of pages in the provided thread, found a post that seemed to contradict was claimed then I got distracted and can’t find that thread.

 

 I am not saying you are wrong, I would just like to read the comments for myself.

[Ralf11]

ditto - I'd like to read more on Schiit's very interesting idea

[Summit]

25 minutes ago, Blake said:

 

I have gen5 in two different systems.  In both cases what is upstream still clearly matters, and not just a little bit.  I would wager this will also be true with Schiit’s upcoming solution.

 

By chance can you provide a link to the posts where they actually claim nothing upstream matters with gen5?  I asked this in a different thread a while back, someone provided a long thread and claimed the remark from Schiit was in the thread.  I read through  number of pages in the provided thread, found a post that seemed to contradict was claimed then I got distracted and can’t find that thread.

 

 I am not saying you are wrong, I would just like to read the comments for myself.

 

“Throw away your decrapifiers, regenerators, isolators, magic boxes, and all the rest of those USB band-aids,” Mike Moffat, Schiit’s Co-Founder said. “You don’t need them with our Gen 5 USB input.”

 

http://www.schiit.com/news/news/usb-solved-introducing-gen-5-and-eitr

 

http://www.schiit.com/products/gen-5-usb

[Dutch]

Haha that’s not what they said about it it in this recent video. The marketing hyperbole will of course shift to their “gen 6” or whatever they put their own USB interface in. (Though I have to say this new interface approach sounds interesting)

 

 

[Ralf11]

or -- possibly -- they are actually able to improve their designs over time...

⚠️

[Dutch]

7 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

or -- possibly -- they are actually able to improve their designs over time...

⚠️

 

Oh but I don’t doubt that for a second. I just chuckled about the marketing side of things. Just watch the video (or start around 22:00 where all things USB start) if you haven’t yet and hear them talking about gen 1, 2 to 5 and their proprietary USB interface plans.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, Blake said:

I have gen5 in two different systems.  In both cases what is upstream still clearly matters, and not just a little bit.  I would wager this will also be true with Schiit’s upcoming solution.

 

 Yet some still insist that even a stock standard Mac Mini  gives completely acceptable sound via USB without any of this and using virtually any DAC.

 I also remember Benchmark making similar claims to Schiit about their USB implementation originally, which was long before USB Regens etc. even existed.

 

[Sonicularity]

3 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Yet some still insist that even a stock standard Mac Mini  gives completely acceptable sound via USB without any of this and using virtually any DAC. 

1

 

Guilty! ?‍♂️

[GeneZ]

3 hours ago, Summit said:

 

“Throw away your decrapifiers, regenerators, isolators, magic boxes, and all the rest of those USB band-aids,” Mike Moffat, Schiit’s Co-Founder said. “You don’t need them with our Gen 5 USB input.”

 

http://www.schiit.com/news/news/usb-solved-introducing-gen-5-and-eitr

 

http://www.schiit.com/products/gen-5-usb

 

Correct. With Gen 5 we don't need those. I have a whole slew of Ifi devices sitting on the shelf since using my Yggy. Some review said they could discern no difference between what was a very expensive USB correction device and when using the Yggy.  These devices all helped the sound from USB in varying degrees.  But, they still could not completely lift certain problems inherent with USB. 

 

Gen 5?  It simply does the job of what all those devices offered.  Devices audiophiles used before their DAC's to try to abate the USB problem. Like those devices, Gen 5 makes things better without the need for them.  But, according to Mike Moffat, things can be even much better. Improved if the USB itself could be changed to something designed with audio in mind.

[Superdad]

17 hours ago, Dutch said:

What he said is they’ve developed their own USB.org certified USB interface processor...

 

No, I don't think they've developed Schiit yet.  They have this notion about what the want to do.  I'd wager we won't see anything for another 18 months--and then it won't be as they describe.  Maybe they will license an FPGA USB MAC processor core from some company in India (a lot of such IP comes from India).  But if they want to develop their own, they will spend waste a fortune.  

And then there are the drivers.  Imagine the friends enemies they will make when things go awry with the various computer OS.

 

Of course it's just late and I'm just speculating. But I do hope nobody here is holding their breath for this...

[PeterSt]

6 minutes ago, Superdad said:

And then there are the drivers.

 

I have the (Windows) drivers over here. You don't want to go there ...

[CuteStudio]

12 hours ago, Dutch said:

 

 and hear them talking about gen 1, 2 to 5 and their proprietary USB interface plans.

 

Good to see that over Christmas serious people were busy listening to their lossless, bit perfect, digital cables. Then arguing about it on the internet and discussing ignore lists and banning. Fascinating.
I on the other hand was listening to music, discovered a couple of great artists and a new album by one of my favourites :D

 

However when the conversation strayed to redesigning the USB cables we entered the far reaches of the Twilight Zone where the Langoliers roam and Dr. Strange sometimes visits, and even I was sucked in by the vacuum.

Upgrading USB? Completely pointless. There is already a decent audio interface since 1986 called I2S that does all this and is in use in many devices. 

E.g: https://volumio.org/raspberry-pi-i2s-dac-sounds-so-good/

(I was going to put a Wikipedia link in but that multi hundred million $ company part financed by taxpayer funds is in it's seasonal 'beggig for money' mode).

 

The fact all HiFi makers haven't picked this up yet (they've had 32 YEARS) and used it tells us more about the HiFi industry than people should be comfortable with.

 

I2S guys: perfect timing, already being used by the smarter engineering based sections of audio. As a bonus it also slots right into a Raspberry Pi a win-win. (As an aside, quite why people use anything else is also a mystery. Mine sits there day after day, I don't even bother to switch it off because it uses so little power: No USB required).

 

Now back to the serious business of listening to cables...