USB audio cracked... finally!

[sandyk]

Quote

Now back to the serious business of listening to cables...

 

 Before or after "restoring" the clipped peaks ?

[Abtr]

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

No, I don't think they've developed Schiit yet.  They have this notion about what the want to do.  I'd wager we won't see anything for another 18 months--and then it won't be as they describe.  Maybe they will license an FPGA USB MAC processor core from some company in India (a lot of such IP comes from India).  But if they want to develop their own, they will spend waste a fortune.  

And then there are the drivers.  Imagine the friends enemies they will make when things go awry with the various computer OS.

 

Of course it's just late and I'm just speculating. But I do hope nobody here is holding their breath for this...

In the video Schiit clearly states they already have a working prototype which just needs beta-testing because the software still may have bugs with some OSs. They  also clearly state that it sounds (much) better than S/PDIF, whereas there current Gen 5 solution doesn't. Based on this info, I for one would not buy a new Schiit DAC before it ships with this Gen 6 USB interface. 

[Dutch]

24 minutes ago, Abtr said:

In the video Schiit clearly states they already have a working prototype which just needs beta-testing because the software still may have bugs with some OSs. They  also clearly state that it sounds (much) better than S/PDIF, whereas there current Gen 5 solution doesn't. Based on this info, I for one would not buy a new Schiit DAC before it ships with this Gen 6 USB interface. 

 

I think Alex is referring to the ‘host’ part in a USB host-receiver pair. They mentioned the “receive” part (which you would hook up to a regular USB port in a computer and would be inside a DDC or DAC or something) is done as in ready for beta. The next step would be the USB host part.

 

He rightfully corrected me as I implicitly stated that the host part was ‘done’ too.

 

They do mention a ‘Schiit Pie’ as in a Raspberry Pi like computer. If that would be their first host containing their USB host interface then it would be a fully controlled system and it would not require them to write functioning drivers for any computer on the planet.

[4est]

On 12/27/2018 at 6:33 PM, sandyk said:

 If you are unable to see any differences between the  improved (but not perfect) images linked to on  Image Shack that are now available in my Profile, your monitor is pathetic, or you simply do not wish to.

 

I have previously stated on many occasions that comparison files uploaded via the internet are NOT my preferred delivery method as they suffer considerable degradation.

You know Alex, if you would like people to treat you with dignity, you must also treat them with it. I mentioned it in another thread. You are perpetuating a problem that you claim exists. There are ways of saying things that are not fueling the ire. FWIW, jabbr is somewhat moderate and quite receptive. I'd not alienate him so readily...

[4est]

2 hours ago, CuteStudio said:

 

Good to see that over Christmas serious people were busy listening to their lossless, bit perfect, digital cables. Then arguing about it on the internet and discussing ignore lists and banning. Fascinating.
I on the other hand was listening to music, discovered a couple of great artists and a new album by one of my favourites

 

However when the conversation strayed to redesigning the USB cables we entered the far reaches of the Twilight Zone where the Langoliers roam and Dr. Strange sometimes visits, and even I was sucked in by the vacuum.

Upgrading USB? Completely pointless. There is already a decent audio interface since 1986 called I2S that does all this and is in use in many devices. 

E.g: https://volumio.org/raspberry-pi-i2s-dac-sounds-so-good/

(I was going to put a Wikipedia link in but that multi hundred million $ company part financed by taxpayer funds is in it's seasonal 'beggig for money' mode).

 

The fact all HiFi makers haven't picked this up yet (they've had 32 YEARS) and used it tells us more about the HiFi industry than people should be comfortable with.

 

I2S guys: perfect timing, already being used by the smarter engineering based sections of audio. As a bonus it also slots right into a Raspberry Pi a win-win. (As an aside, quite why people use anything else is also a mystery. Mine sits there day after day, I don't even bother to switch it off because it uses so little power: No USB required).

 

Now back to the serious business of listening to cables...

And how does one get i2s from a computer? I only know of one computer with i2s out, and it doesn't have a proper master clock. It's the rasPi. I am sure there are others, but then how or where is the Mclk generated and distributed? You are acting as if no one has considered this and we are all stupid. The sad fact is that in order to use i2s from a computer, one must use some sort of device. The Gen 5 is just that sort of device. If you are going to hop on a soap box, at least get your argument in order. Oh, and that thing about listening to music vs posting- bush league!

[Abtr]

23 minutes ago, Dutch said:

I think Alex is referring to the ‘host’ part in a USB host-receiver pair. They mentioned the “receive” part (which you would hook up to a regular USB port in a computer and would be inside a DDC or DAC or something) is done as in ready for beta. The next step would be the USB host part.

 

He rightfully corrected me as I implicitly stated that the host part was ‘done’ too.

 

They do mention a ‘Schiit Pie’ as in a Raspberry Pi like computer. If that would be their first host containing their USB host interface then it would be a fully controlled system and it would not require them to write functioning drivers for any computer on the planet.

I see, thanks. 

[CuteStudio]

1 hour ago, 4est said:

And how does one get i2s from a computer? I only know of one computer with i2s out, and it doesn't have a proper master clock. It's the rasPi. I am sure there are others, but then how or where is the Mclk generated and distributed? You are acting as if no one has considered this and we are all stupid. The sad fact is that in order to use i2s from a computer, one must use some sort of device. The Gen 5 is just that sort of device. If you are going to hop on a soap box, at least get your argument in order. Oh, and that thing about listening to music vs posting- bush league!

 

It is ironic that you criticise SandyK for hearing differences in a bit-perfect system in a thread devoted to cable sound in a bit perfect system - it strikes me as inconsistent:
Sandy's lack of understanding that all digital data is recreated based on threshold detection at every stage of the process is no different from the thought that any cable can change the sound of USB except via simple and known analog processes such as earth loop issues and RFI, or that USB is any type of interface to be using for audio in the first place. I see no difference.

 

USB is as appropriate as Class B amplifiers, unbalanced interconnects and speaker side crossovers: pointlessly inferior.

 

To the quoted reply:

 

You ask: how do you get i2S from a computer? Given 32 years and the fact it's one of mankind's simplest inventions I'm surprised you have to ask. If there is no standard PC interface for it that is a reflection on computer audio, nothing else.

 

However the Raspberry Pi is a computer and it has this interface. For £30 odd you get a full computer complete with peripherals, memory, HDMI, ethernet etc and I2S so that kinda proves that it's not a difficult task to support I2S. It also runs a real OS.

Additionally the Pi supports external clock for the I2S so that could come from the DAC itself or a master clock just like in a recording studio.

 

I.e. you can already buy a fully functional low power computer with proper I2S and a decent DAC for around the cost of a fluffy USB cable. I'm sure the Lush 1,2,3 etc. is fantastic and the Gen 5,6,7 etc are super great but the problem you are trying to solve was already solved 32 years ago and can be bought today for peanuts.

 

Full accurate clocked hi-res audio, today: peanuts.

 

If your DAC manufacturer didn't see fit to add/externalise their I2S interface I suggest you ask them why they failed to support the only decent interface around that will be on their PCB somewhere anyway. Surely that's supposed to be their job?

 

So I don't really understand your post - what are you trying to say?

 

[PeterSt]

2 minutes ago, CuteStudio said:

what are you trying to say?

 

I am not 4est, but we could start with you not understanding what SandyK provokes. And that is quite basic ...

 

i2s, good idea, but ...

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, 4est said:

but I do not see you adding any of that as value here

 

Yea, now what. But you can't force the man.

 

OK, it is old years day. What happened to the mood of some people ?

[PeterSt]

3 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

i2s, good idea, but ...

 

7 minutes ago, CuteStudio said:

For £30 odd you get a full computer complete with peripherals, memory, HDMI, ethernet etc and I2S so that kinda proves that it's not a difficult task to support I2S.

 

At what speed was that, you say ?

[4est]

39 minutes ago, CuteStudio said:

 

It is ironic that you criticise SandyK for hearing differences in a bit-perfect system in a thread devoted to cable sound in a bit perfect system - it strikes me as inconsistent:
Sandy's lack of understanding that all digital data is recreated based on threshold detection at every stage of the process is no different from the thought that any cable can change the sound of USB except via simple and known analog processes such as earth loop issues and RFI, or that USB is any type of interface to be using for audio in the first place. I see no difference.

 

USB is as appropriate as Class B amplifiers, unbalanced interconnects and speaker side crossovers: pointlessly inferior.

 

To the quoted reply:

 

You ask: how do you get i2S from a computer? Given 32 years and the fact it's one of mankind's simplest inventions I'm surprised you have to ask. If there is no standard PC interface for it that is a reflection on computer audio, nothing else.

 

However the Raspberry Pi is a computer and it has this interface. For £30 odd you get a full computer complete with peripherals, memory, HDMI, ethernet etc and I2S so that kinda proves that it's not a difficult task to support I2S. It also runs a real OS.

Additionally the Pi supports external clock for the I2S so that could come from the DAC itself or a master clock just like in a recording studio.

 

I.e. you can already buy a fully functional low power computer with proper I2S and a decent DAC for around the cost of a fluffy USB cable. I'm sure the Lush 1,2,3 etc. is fantastic and the Gen 5,6,7 etc are super great but the problem you are trying to solve was already solved 32 years ago and can be bought today for peanuts.

 

Full accurate clocked hi-res audio, today: peanuts.

 

If your DAC manufacturer didn't see fit to add/externalise their I2S interface I suggest you ask them why they failed to support the only decent interface around that will be on their PCB somewhere anyway. Surely that's supposed to be their job?

 

So I don't really understand your post - what are you trying to say?

 

 

 

I am trying to say that your post was unnecessary, and steeped in BS. I do own a Pi, and I HAVE used the shitty i2s out into a resampling DAC (Buffalo II) as you noted. Contrary to whatever you might think, most every USB input creates an i2s (or eq) signal. That is what the DAC chips use! True i2s is a signal not intended to be transmitted box to box, but along a short trace. It is practically FM and easily corrupted.

 

Perhaps you meant to suggest LVDS i2s, but that hasn't been around for thirty years, and comes with other costs and complexities. That is available as an external interface readily if you look for it. It has supporters for all of the right reasons and one I'd consider- a studio master clock as well. An LVDS still likely requires a USB cable, and a good studio clock costs a lot more than a Lush cable however. It is also a much more complex arrangement.

 

As to criticizing SandyK for hearing differences in bit perfect cabling, I did no such thing. I am in agreement that it happens. I am not a cable basher by any stretch and have many, but not a Lush unfortunately. I'm using a Supra USB presently. I use their nicest analog cables too, their bifilliar wound speaker cables work great on my ESLs.

[CuteStudio]

4est: 'Steeped in BS' is very emotive, could you instead explain what made you unhappy?

 

Of course the I2S is used internally - the Volumio link I gave says exactly that! that's why I linked to it. Perhaps as you clearly didn't read the link we are not on the same page about this.

 

You claim that the Pi's i2s link is 'shitty', despite it's ability to be clocked externally and it's short traces to daughterboard DACs. As it fulfils all the I2S implementation criteria you mention what is it that you consider 'shitty'? Again here a less emotional response may be beneficial.

 

As of Sandyk you said 'You are perpetuating a problem that you claim exists.', which can be taken to imply the difference he hears is not real, an inconsistent statement in a thread many consider to be about people hearing differences that are not real. I didn't mention his listening to cabling. 

 

Happy New Year!

[GeneZ]

Here we are talking about improving the USB..

 

I just experimented. I plugged my PC's AC into a different conditioner and it changed the sound. Same USB as before.  We are being effected in so many ways that just solving an alleged USB problem may not be what is really needed!  I have a hunch that we have about ten variables going on at once, and we only pay attention to one, or two.

[4est]

21 minutes ago, CuteStudio said:

4est: 'Steeped in BS' is very emotive, could you instead explain what made you unhappy?

 

Of course the I2S is used internally - the Volumio link I gave says exactly that! that's why I linked to it. Perhaps as you clearly didn't read the link we are not on the same page about this.

 

You claim that the Pi's i2s link is 'shitty', despite it's ability to be clocked externally and it's short traces to daughterboard DACs. As it fulfils all the I2S implementation criteria you mention what is it that you consider 'shitty'? Again here a less emotional response may be beneficial.

 

As of Sandyk you said 'You are perpetuating a problem that you claim exists.', which can be taken to imply the difference he hears is not real, an inconsistent statement in a thread many consider to be about people hearing differences that are not real. I didn't mention his listening to cabling. 

 

Happy New Year!

Perhaps I didn't make it clear when I have said that I have done this? That would include Volumino too btw. I am sorry that I sound too emotive for your tastes. I do not care to be misquoted or chided. You have done both. Unless it has changed, using the i2s out of a Pi requires ASRC, which I find inferior both technically and sonically to synchronous clocking on the DACs I have tried. These were DIY affairs where one can get by using super short ( under 100mm/4") i2s lines. I imagine it is possible to do if things are in cases, but the leads are best as short as possible. Even still, this is DIY and it is impractical to have a micro computer dangling off the back of your DAC.

 

As to SandyK, you are completely mistaken. He and I are familiar with each other. I was suggesting he watch how he speaks to people. It had nothing to do with audio, but forum etiquette.

 

Mostly I didn't like the way you suggested that everyone is foolish to not do what you suggest when there are alternatives that technically exceed that suggestion. I'll not clog this thread about this further and I am sorry if I went off the handle.

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, 4est said:

Unless it has changed, using the i2s out of a Pi requires ASRC, which I find inferior both technically and sonically to synchronous clocking on the DACs I have tried. 

 

Just on this point alone - I’ve been using HiFiBerry and Allo HATs with RPi’s for years now. All are capable of bitperfect playback (Roon endpoints in my case).

[sandyk]

9 hours ago, 4est said:

You know Alex, if you would like people to treat you with dignity, you must also treat them with it. I mentioned it in another thread.

 

 I am well aware of this, but it's a 2 way street. This will (hopefully)  markedly improve right across the whole forum if further moderation is approved and enforced equally with all members, no matter what their Academic /Engineering qualifications are..

[sandyk]

5 hours ago, 4est said:

As to criticizing SandyK for hearing differences in bit perfect cabling, I did no such thing. I am in agreement that it happens

 

 

Graham

 4est has never criticised me for hearing these differences, neither has Peter St. who has designed arguably one of the finest DACs currently available, as well XXHE S/W for audio in Windows and the very well received Lush2 USB cable.

As for your comments about " recreated based on threshold detection at every stage of the process " , I am well aware of this, and it is also why the 74HCU04 I.C. is often used at the coax SPDIF input of many DACs, including my own DIY DAC.

 

Regards

Alex

[4est]

30 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 I am well aware of this, but it's a 2 way street. This will (hopefully)  markedly improve right across the whole forum if further moderation is approved and enforced equally with all members.

Oh, I never thought otherwise, and I didn't intend to pick on you. I just feel that everyone should first and foremost moderate themselves. I do not think you are a primary culprit, but you do seem to take the bait readily from what I have seen. It happens, but we all should be working it. Pointing fingers and retort lead us nowhere good for the most part.

[sandyk]

15 minutes ago, 4est said:

I do not think you are a primary culprit, but you do seem to take the bait readily from what I have seen

 4est

 You haven't been subjected to continuous insults and sniping at for NOW 10 years like I have !

 How many other members will meekly will take this for so long without eventually starting to respond in kind ,

and in some cases end up being banned from the forum ?

 Some members deliberately try to push other members buttons to try and do this, which is why we need the additional moderation.

 

Alex

[accwai]

2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

[...] You haven't been subjected to continuous insults and sniping at for NOW 10 years like I have !

 How many other members will meekly will take this without eventually responding in kind and in some cases end up being banned from the forum ?

 

https://dariusforoux.com/stop-giving-toxic-people-your-time

[Ralf11]

30 minutes ago, sandyk said:

...

 You haven't been subjected to continuous insults and sniping at for NOW 10 years like I have !

 ...

 

who was doing this to you 10 years ago??

[4est]

38 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 4est

 You haven't been subjected to continuous insults and sniping at for NOW 10 years like I have !

 How many other members will meekly will take this for so long without eventually starting to respond in kind ,

and in some cases end up being banned from the forum ?

 Some members deliberately try to push other members buttons to try and do this, which is why we need the additional moderation.

 

Alex

I am not going to disagree with your validity, but the cycle needs to stop. Take the high ground. Someone has to.

[sandyk]

3 minutes ago, 4est said:

I am not going to disagree with your validity, but the cycle needs to stop. Take the high ground. Someone has to.

 

This should no longer be a major problem if the results of the poll suggest the need for tightened moderation in the civility area.

[Ralf11]

30 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

who was doing this to you 10 years ago??

 

eh??

[fas42]

4 hours ago, GeneZ said:

Here we are talking about improving the USB..

 

I just experimented. I plugged my PC's AC into a different conditioner and it changed the sound. Same USB as before.  We are being effected in so many ways that just solving an alleged USB problem may not be what is really needed!  I have a hunch that we have about ten variables going on at once, and we only pay attention to one, or two.

 

Yes ... people keep reaching out for 'magic', one-size-fits-all solutions ... but, it don't ... work ... that ... way.

 

In my world of dealing with audio systems, I see nearly all of them as being a rat's nest. Ohh, they may look like pretty nifty - but electrically they are as messy as the "rat's nest" of cabling one often finds behind the pretty metal cases - those messes, out of sight, are pretty telling of the fact that little effort has gone into "the devil's in the details" side of things.