Just got a Yggdrasil!

[Speed Racer]

First of all, he is the only one hearing this "problem". Second, he has never been able to prove that what he hears and dislikes is the glitch. Finally, the designer of the DAC says you can't hear the glitch.

 

It's crap because there was long thread that proved nothing to anyone....and then he starts in again here...and again with no proof and with no one else able to hear it.

 

I suppose you think he can hear a gnat fart from 50 meters.....

[Ralf11]

I am getting Ygged out...

[LarryMagoo]

Me too!

[earnmyturns]

5 hours ago, semente said:

I don't think it would make sense to perform measurements unless they mattered.

It makes a lot a sense to people with an axe to grind to make measurements that purport to help their cause. Any sufficiently complex nonlinear system is vulnerable to crafted adversarial inputs that cause it to output something that does not conform to expected input-output characteristics. Whether that matters depend on whether adversarial inputs occur in the wild. Axe-grinders put a lot of effort seeking the adversarial inputs that help their point. Those with better things to do will roll their eyes and move on.

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, earnmyturns said:

It makes a lot a sense to people with an axe to grind to make measurements that purport to help their cause. Any sufficiently complex nonlinear system is vulnerable to crafted adversarial inputs that cause it to output something that does not conform to expected input-output characteristics. Whether that matters depend on whether adversarial inputs occur in the wild. Axe-grinders put a lot of effort seeking the adversarial inputs that help their point. Those with better things to do will roll their eyes and move on.

 

+1

[Superdad]

Well let's get back to discussing that George leaked info about a pending change to the Yggy.  I think Stoddard would have a fit if he found out.  

[semente]

6 hours ago, earnmyturns said:

It makes a lot a sense to people with an axe to grind to make measurements that purport to help their cause. Any sufficiently complex nonlinear system is vulnerable to crafted adversarial inputs that cause it to output something that does not conform to expected input-output characteristics. Whether that matters depend on whether adversarial inputs occur in the wild. Axe-grinders put a lot of effort seeking the adversarial inputs that help their point. Those with better things to do will roll their eyes and move on.

 

So, you're saying that JA (intentionally) created stress tests that he knew the Yggdrasil would fail?

Tests that most other DACs seem to pass?

 

I find this a bit bizarre, considering that Sphile and other magazines can only survive thanks to advertising (manufacturers)...

My view would be the opposite, that JA tends to gloss over equipment shortcomings.

 

R

[mourip]

21 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Not everything that matters can be measured and not everything that can be measured matters.

 

 

 

"Not everything that matters can be measured and not everything that can be measured matters."

 

Amen! Could this quote be a sticky that gets automatically appended to the top of every thread please...

[Samuel T Cogley]

10 minutes ago, mourip said:

 

"Not everything that matters can be measured and not everything that can be measured matters."

 

Amen! Could this quote be a sticky that gets automatically appended to the top of every thread please...

 

To me, that quote is analogous to: "It's OK to believe in Santa Claus if you want.  No one has proven he doesn't exist".  It gives quarter to believers in audiophile magic.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

To me, that quote is analogous to: "It's OK to believe in Santa Claus if you want.  No one has proven he doesn't exist".  It gives quarter to believers in audiophile magic.

 

To turn it another way, you must think all measurements matter?

 

If one component has noise at -150 dB and another at -140 dB, does it actually matter?

[wwaldmanfan]

41 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

To turn it another way, you must think all measurements matter?

 

If one component has noise at -150 dB and another at -140 dB, does it actually matter?

 

Not to a normal person. However, there are probably a few people here who would lose sleep over this sort of thing.

[Samuel T Cogley]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

To turn it another way, you must think all measurements matter?

 

If one component has noise at -150 dB and another at -140 dB, does it actually matter?

 

Circling back to the Yggy:  The zero crossing glitch exists unquestionably.  Isn't the better question, "is it audible"?  "Does it matter" is an ideological question and always causes needless controversy.

[The Computer Audiophile]

46 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Circling back to the Yggy:  The zero crossing glitch exists unquestionably.  Isn't the better question, "is it audible"?  "Does it matter" is an ideological question and always causes needless controversy.

 

I look at those two things closely, but a little different. Is it audible? No, then it doesn't matter to me. Yes, then I need to figure out if it's audible all the time or just with certain music etc... 

[Samuel T Cogley]

7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I look at those two things closely, but a little different. Is it audible? No, then it doesn't matter to me. Yes, then I need to figure out if it's audible all the time or just with certain music etc... 

 

Maybe we agree, not sure.  If it's inaudible, then I think any further interest is quixotic.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Maybe we agree, not sure.  If it's inaudible, then I think any further interest is quixotic.

 

Yes.

[Jud]

4 hours ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

To me, that quote is analogous to: "It's OK to believe in Santa Claus if you want.  No one has proven he doesn't exist".  It gives quarter to believers in audiophile magic.

 

Actually that quote was recited by the Audio Precision representative at an RMAF seminar I attended.  He wasn't wearing a beard and red outfit, either!   

 

https://www.ap.com/

[Jud]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

To turn it another way, you must think all measurements matter?

 

If one component has noise at -150 dB and another at -140 dB, does it actually matter?

 

2 hours ago, wwaldmanfan said:

 

Not to a normal person. However, there are probably a few people here who would lose sleep over this sort of thing.

 

Noise only 140dB down?  Those bastards!

[Samuel T Cogley]

44 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Actually that quote was recited by the Audio Precision representative at an RMAF seminar I attended.  He wasn't wearing a beard and red outfit, either!   

 

https://www.ap.com/

 

What he was saying was, "if you suffer from a bad case of OCD, please don't use my products".   

[hornytoad]

On 4/3/2017 at 2:07 AM, manisandher said:

 

OK, shall we try again then?

 

1. The Yggy has zero-crossing glitching distortion.

 

 

JA referred to these as "significant errors at the signal's zero-crossing points" [highlight mine]. Perhaps these are inaudible, but perhaps they're not.

 

2. The Yggy has problems with high level, high frequency tones.

 

 

I had a quick look at the other DACs Stereophile had reviewed and couldn't find anything anywhere near as bad as this. Do you really think this is going to be inaudible?

 

3. The Yggy has problems with the LSBs of 24-bit data.

 

 

The 24 bit noise is correlated with the signal, and peaks up above the 16 bit noise at certain points. You don't think this is going to be audible?

 

So, what are your counter-arguments?

 

Mani.

The ultimate Schiit hater couldn't resist bringing up measurements that nobody can hear . 

And yet he claims the Yggdrasil isn't good but the Chord 2 qute is great . 

Ive had both for over a year and the Yggdrasil is better to my ears , particularly   

with acoustic music .

 

[Ralf11]

ok, hang on a nanosecond -- isn't "errors at the signal's zero-crossing points" something that amplifier designers have been trying to eliminate for decades??

 

isn't that watt has driven the sales of Class A amps?

 

isn't it watt the new (and highly reviewed) Benchmark has used a new technology to solve or reduce?

 

if so, is it not important for a DAC (or inside a DAC) yet is important for a power amp?

 

naturally, it is possible that the focus of hundreds or thousands of engineers is mis-placed...

[Samuel T Cogley]

3 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

ok, hang on a nanosecond -- isn't "errors at the signal's zero-crossing points" something that amplifier designers have been trying to eliminate for decades??

 

isn't that watt has driven the sales of Class A amps?

 

isn't it watt the new (and highly reviewed) Benchmark has used a new technology to solve or reduce?

 

if so, is it not important for a DAC (or inside a DAC) yet is important for a power amp?

 

naturally, it is possible that the focus of hundreds or thousands of engineers is mis-placed...

 

I don't disagree with your core assertion here.  But what gets lost in the discussion is the design goals and trade offs that Mike Moffat had with the Yggy.  The choice of DAC chips (the ultimate source of the glitch, I believe) is a head scratcher to many.  I've heard some speculate that Moffat used a design that he was pretty sure no one else would try to replicate and undercut sales.

 

I don't think anyone defending the Yggy is claiming that it's the best DAC design ever.  But my conclusion (I listened to one at a friend's house for several sessions before buying one myself) was that for the price, the sound quality was unrivaled.  Now that the bar has been reset yet again, we will likely see a higher level of sound quality for the same money or even less.  I say again that I'm really looking forward to what the mysterious iFi iDSD Pro will sound like when (if) it's finally released.

 

The Yggy is like two year old tech.  Most of its design shortcomings are well known now.  And DAC designs have really improved over the last five years or so at an impressively accelerated rate.  In another two years, the Yggy might be seen as a "quaint" design from that "disruptive" DAC design era.  iFi will be making a "Pico" that is a quarter the size of a Dragonfly Red and will sound better than a dCS Vivaldi.  And I'm sure that will be controversial as well. 

[Ralf11]

Thx.  "for the price, the sound quality was unrivaled" is what counts

[semente]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I look at those two things closely, but a little different. Is it audible? No, then it doesn't matter to me. Yes, then I need to figure out if it's audible all the time or just with certain music etc... 

 

Could it be possible that even though artifacts may not be audible their causes may affect overall performance?

 

R

[LarryMagoo]

The Yggy can be compared to any DAC at any price!!!....and that just what Mike and Jason say about it!

 

As previously mentioned....put down the damn OScope and listen!!!!

[gmgraves]

13 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

To turn it another way, you must think all measurements matter?

 

If one component has noise at -150 dB and another at -140 dB, does it actually matter?

No, it does not, as one can hear neither.