Just got a Yggdrasil!

[manisandher]

9 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

All I see here is people not agreeing with your positions, methods, and conclusions.

 

 

OK, shall we try again then?

 

1. The Yggy has zero-crossing glitching distortion.

 

 

JA referred to these as "significant errors at the signal's zero-crossing points" [highlight mine]. Perhaps these are inaudible, but perhaps they're not.

 

2. The Yggy has problems with high level, high frequency tones.

 

 

I had a quick look at the other DACs Stereophile had reviewed and couldn't find anything anywhere near as bad as this. Do you really think this is going to be inaudible?

 

3. The Yggy has problems with the LSBs of 24-bit data.

 

 

The 24 bit noise is correlated with the signal, and peaks up above the 16 bit noise at certain points. You don't think this is going to be audible?

 

So, what are your counter-arguments?

 

Mani.

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 hours ago, manisandher said:

 

OK, shall we try again then?

 

1. The Yggy has zero-crossing glitching distortion.

 

 

JA referred to these as "significant errors at the signal's zero-crossing points" [highlight mine]. Perhaps these are inaudible, but perhaps they're not.

 

2. The Yggy has problems with high level, high frequency tones.

 

 

I had a quick look at the other DACs Stereophile had reviewed and couldn't find anything anywhere near as bad as this. Do you really think this is going to be inaudible?

 

3. The Yggy has problems with the LSBs of 24-bit data.

 

 

The 24 bit noise is correlated with the signal, and peaks up above the 16 bit noise at certain points. You don't think this is going to be audible?

 

So, what are your counter-arguments?

 

Mani.

 

Can you help us understand what these issues around -130 db will sound like? 

[manisandher]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Can you help us understand what these issues around -130 db will sound like? 

 

Chris, without knowing the bandwidth of the FFT bins used in the plots above, I'm not sure how to determine at exactly what level the issues with the Yggy sit. But I suspect they're well above -130dB.

 

Someone with more FFT experience might be able to help out here.

 

Mani.

 

Edit: can't seem to get rid of this graph (which I originally thought might be of some help)...

 

[semente]

On 29/03/2017 at 11:44 PM, crenca said:

 

So you believe in both cases (yggy and gungnir) Schiit is overstating the theoretical resolution by 1?

 

 

Perhaps they are adding a significant bit.

[LarryMagoo]

I wonder if there was this much evaluation work put in to the "euphonic distortion/specs of Tubes?  They measure poorly when compared to SS...but because is referred to a Euphonic Coloration, its accepted as what's "right with Tubes".

 

Mani and JA obsess over..."what'd they do with the last two bits??  Is it truncation or just what?

 

How about Euphonic Digital Coloration....It's what right with the Yggy!!!!    Put down the OScope and just listen!

[Speed Racer]

We know that they round off to 20 bits. They do not truncate. We also know they get an effective 21 bits of resolution because they use 2 DAC chips (4 when using balanced mode).

[The Computer Audiophile]

Not everything that matters can be measured and not everything that can be measured matters.

 

 

[gmgraves]

11 hours ago, manisandher said:

 

OK, shall we try again then?

 

1. The Yggy has zero-crossing glitching distortion.

 

 

JA referred to these as "significant errors at the signal's zero-crossing points" [highlight mine]. Perhaps these are inaudible, but perhaps they're not.

 

2. The Yggy has problems with high level, high frequency tones.

 

 

I had a quick look at the other DACs Stereophile had reviewed and couldn't find anything anywhere near as bad as this. Do you really think this is going to be inaudible?

 

3. The Yggy has problems with the LSBs of 24-bit data.

 

 

The 24 bit noise is correlated with the signal, and peaks up above the 16 bit noise at certain points. You don't think this is going to be audible?

 

So, what are your counter-arguments?

 

Mani.

Since all that spuriae shown in your #2 and #3 is more than 120 dB down, you're damn right, it's inaudible! I guess some people could make an argument about the Auralic's shortcomings being more inaudible than the Yggy's, but that's a lot like arguing about who killed more of their own people, Stalin or Mouse Dung. Or how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. Both arguments are ultimately irrelevant, as is the one you are trying to make. Specs are useful, if they are used by people who understand what they are looking at. Showing a comparison between two pieces of gear where the imperfections of both are below the threshold of human hearing, and way below the self noise of your (or anybody else's) amplifier, the output amplifier stages of either of the two DACs in question, and certainly below the noise floor of any recordings your going to play on either is an exercise in "not understanding all you know about the subject".

On the other hand, the DAC glitch in the Yggy, certainly looks bad on paper, but I certainly can't hear any sonic anomaly in the Yggy that I could attribute to that glitch. You should really listen to gear before condemning it based on measurements that you don't seem to understand.

[Jud]

4 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

You should really listen to gear before condemning it based on measurements that you don't seem to understand.

 

He did.

 

This is not intended to comment on audibility of what's shown on the graphs, just to point out that mani indeed did listen to the Yggy for some time, as he's mentioned in this thread and others.  He wound up not liking it; again, I'm not intending to comment on whether anything shown in the graphs could have been the reason.

[Jud]

2 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

We know that they round off to 20 bits. They do not truncate. We also know they get an effective 21 bits of resolution because they use 2 DAC chips (4 when using balanced mode).

 

Right, but as I mentioned before, this is a mathematical measure and not necessarily the actual dynamic range available from the DAC.  For that you'd need to measure the actual noise floor and determine to what extent if at all listeners can hear into that noise floor.

 

 I am not sure the dynamic range of the DAC is even that meaningful, but it's one of those topics that seems to come up a lot with Yggy (since people tend to talk about specs and anything unusual).

[Norton]

On 31 March 2017 at 3:27 AM, gmgraves said:

 I'm not at liberty to say what all has been changed, and the Yggy that I have is ostensibly one of the first to incorporate those changes. Needless to say, that I doubt seriously that the DAC you tried and the one I was sent do not sound the same.

 

George,

 

re. the wording of your posts in this thread, can  I ask, politely, whether you have  a  relationshipship with the company beyond simply being a satisfied paying customer?

[gmgraves]

1 hour ago, Norton said:

 

George,

 

re. the wording of your posts in this thread, can  I ask, politely, whether you have  a  relationshipship with the company beyond simply being a satisfied paying customer?

I have no relationship with the company, but I have known Mike Moffat (casually from running in to him at CES, AND HI-Fi shows) for many years, and I have met Jason Stoddard. I'm a reviewer and the Yiggy I have is a review sample and is not mine. I'm just extremely impressed with the unit's sonic performance.

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

He did.

 

This is not intended to comment on audibility of what's shown on the graphs, just to point out that mani indeed did listen to the Yggy for some time, as he's mentioned in this thread and others.  He wound up not liking it; again, I'm not intending to comment on whether anything shown in the graphs could have been the reason.

 

I've probably got my responders mixed-up. When you say "he did" are you referring to Speed Racer or Mani? One of them said he hadn't actually listened to the Yaggy. I forget. Which... Anyway, to whichever one I'm not talking about, my apologies!

[Speed Racer]

25 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

I've probably got my responders mixed-up. When you say "he did" are you referring to Speed Racer or Mani? One of them said he hadn't actually listened to the Yaggy. I forget. Which... Anyway, to whichever one I'm not talking about, my apologies!

 

No, it was GUTB that was making negative statements about Yggy without having listened to one.

[semente]

5 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Not everything that matters can be measured and not everything that can be measured matters.

 

 

Can you give some examples?

It is possible that some measurements may have become obsolete but I don't think it would make sense to perform measurements unless they mattered.

 

R

[Norton]

38 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

I have no relationship with the company, but I have known Mike Moffat (casually from running in to him at CES, AND HI-Fi shows) for many years, and I have met Jason Stoddard. I'm a reviewer and the Yiggy I have is a review sample and is not mine. I'm just extremely impressed with the unit's sonic performance.

 

Thanks for the clarification.   If your review example is to an updated spec, is this the same as those on sale right now or might it be prudent to wait a while if interested in buying?

[MothAudio]

50 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

I have no relationship with the company, but I have known Mike Moffat (casually from running in to him at CES, AND HI-Fi shows) for many years, and I have met Jason Stoddard. I'm a reviewer and the Yiggy I have is a review sample and is not mine. I'm just extremely impressed with the unit's sonic performance.

 

However you came in possession of the sample I'm sure Schiit would not be pleased to have product upgrade information shared, without their consent, on a public forum.  

[4est]

5 hours ago, Jud said:

 

He did.

 

This is not intended to comment on audibility of what's shown on the graphs, just to point out that mani indeed did listen to the Yggy for some time, as he's mentioned in this thread and others.  He wound up not liking it; again, I'm not intending to comment on whether anything shown in the graphs could have been the reason.

 

And it was his issues with sonics that lead him to finding those measurements and his subsequent forum thread- not the other way around. I am also a bit perplexed by some thinking Mani has an axe to grind or wouldn't know better.

[John H]

1 hour ago, MothAudio said:

 

However you came in possession of the sample I'm sure Schiit would not be pleased to have product upgrade information shared, without their consent, on a public forum.  

 

 

I guess that is why there was no response to my question above; is the reason the Yggy has been out of stock for several weeks due to a new, improved model in the wings.... I am ready to buy, but not able to

[Speed Racer]

18 minutes ago, 4est said:

 

And it was his issues with sonics that lead him to finding those measurements and his subsequent forum thread- not the other way around. I am also a bit perplexed by some thinking Mani has an axe to grind or wouldn't know better.

 

It's the manner he went about it....and continues to go about it. I am not perplexed at all.

[LarryMagoo]

They run out of Yggys all the time....what makes you think there's a pending upgrade?

 

I don't think that Jason or Mike would have let something new out of the bag without being ready to deliver.  If you read their book, Schiit Happens, they say they will never do that again...??

[Speed Racer]

6 minutes ago, LarryMagoo said:

They run out of Yggys all the time....what makes you think there's a pending upgrade?

 

I don't think that Jason or Mike would have let something new out of the bag without being ready to deliver.  If you read their book, Schiit Happens, they say they will never do that again...??

 

You mean like the Vidar or the Eitr?

[LarryMagoo]

Good point...maybe they have not learned their lesson...

[John H]

13 minutes ago, LarryMagoo said:

They run out of Yggys all the time....what makes you think there's a pending upgrade?

 

I don't think that Jason or Mike would have let something new out of the bag without being ready to deliver.  If you read their book, Schiit Happens, they say they will never do that again...??

 

One earlier post::

 GMgraves:

Well, since the newest DACs don't have those "characteristics" any more (much has been changed of late it could well be that you are we are talking apples and oranges, here.. I'm not at liberty to say what all has been changed, and the Yggy that I have is ostensibly one of the first to incorporate those changes. Needless to say, that I doubt seriously that the DAC you tried and the one I was sent do not sound the same

 

 

and mothaudio's post above led me to my statement, not speculating just trying to understand why a top manufacturer would be out of one of their top items for so long. 

 

 

 

 

[4est]

35 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

It's the manner he went about it....and continues to go about it. I am not perplexed at all.

 

If this is what has you all in a bundle, I think you are taking things too seriously. He tried it and thought it sounded odd. He tested it and discovered some things and started a thread to learn about it. Commendable in my mind so far. Here he stated the below, and you came back with "not this crap again.....". Regardless of whether you agree, he has actual experience and relevant information to others.

 

Mani:

"I mentioned the Yggy's zero-crossing glitching a while ago. And I personally didn't like the way it sounded compared to my regular DAC - I still have the digital captures of the Yggy's analogue output that clearly demonstrate that the Yggy changes the sound of the original files in a way that my regular DAC doesn't.

 

JA's measurements weren't very complimentary either. He finished his review with this:

 

 

Quote

While the processor's analog circuitry is superbly well designed, its digital circuitry appears to have problems with high-level, high-frequency tones, and with the LSBs of 24-bit data. It's possible, of course, that the former will be rare with music, and that the latter will be obscured by the noise floors of recordings. But it does look as if the digital circuitry is not fully optimized.

 

 

[Highlights mine.]

 

My feeling was that these shortcomings were indeed audible. But many (most?) Yggy owners love the way it sounds...

 

Mani."