MQA is Vaporware

[The Computer Audiophile]

9 minutes ago, crenca said:

What is so is the personality and authority based culture of Audiohpiledom.  You obviously disagree with it and champion the truth yourself.  Don't make the mistake of going too far the other way and thinking that a culture of facts/truth is somehow the equivalent of debbie downer Toyota

I'd never go so far on the continuum either way. It just isn't me. 

[botrytis]

22 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Holy $#i+! You've gone to the dark side. Tube equipment should be banned from audio shows because it is sold as being better than solid state. Oh the humanity!

 

😁

 

I will lend you my Nelson Pass DIY amps - a whole 6 WPC big. Although they could probably heat your listening room all by themselves

[Jud]

1 hour ago, crenca said:

but because everyone else did not want him to have one because it is bad for business and the hobby

 

AFAIC those would be lousy reasons too, if I'm understanding what you mean.  Other folks' opinions of whether your stuff works, short of fraud proved through the legal system, shouldn't govern whether you get to have a room.  Let folks have rooms with magic amulets (or in Synergistic's case, magic pieces of metal to stick on the wall). 

 

Not choosing to book a room because they're not having success at selling anything, on the other hand, would be just fine.  Anything anyone would wish to do in terms of publicly available room response measurements, for example, would be great too.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, crenca said:

What would it say about my community and the culture of medicine if I went to an AMA conference and the anti-vaxers had a prominent table and lecture series?

 

What if I went to a NASA conference and the moon landing deniers were sponsors?

 

Interesting examples.  In my mind they differ.

 

Anti-vax: This is encouraging non-compliance with law to the detriment of public health.  Slam dunk, they get no representation.  (Though by gosh, it might do a world of good if an anti-vaxxer gave a lecture at an AMA conference with questions allowed and a video of what ensued was distributed.)

 

Moon landing deniers: I think people would get an enormous laugh out of it, same as they did the Flat Earth Society's home page with its tagline "Members around the globe!"  Let 'em come.

[John_Atkinson]

5 hours ago, mansr said:

16 hours ago, Doug Schneider said:

By the same token, when I read that Naim Audio "downsamples" data in JA's technical measurements in this review, it gave me pause for thought: https://www.stereophile.com/content/naim-audio-uniti-nova-integrated-amplifier-media-player-measurements

 

But I didn't close the door on the thought. I got in touch with Naim Audio's director of engineering and asked them why they were downsampling data. He told me they weren't resampling anything -- that they design all their components to roll off output at about 27kHz (if memory serves me). He said that I should fine their preamps will do the same. Why not ask questions?

Read more  

I would have gone a step further and taken the thing apart to see what it really was doing.

 

Perhaps, but I described  my attitude to reviewing at this link – https://www.stereophile.com/content/2011-richard-c-heyser-memorial-lecture-where-did-negative-frequencies-go - writing “there was one experience that foreshadowed my career as an audio reviewer. For one of my bachelor's degree final exams, I was handed a black box with two terminals and had to spend an afternoon determining what it was. (If I recall correctly, it was a Zener diode in series with a resistor.) That experience is echoed every day in my endeavors to characterize the performance of the audio components reviewed in Stereophile - every product, be it speaker, amplifier, CD player, is fundamentally a black box with input and output terminals. All I have to do is ask the question ‘What does it do?’"

 

I must admit some surprise reading that I apparently stated as fact that the Naim Audio Uniti Nova "downsamples" data. I didn’t remember writing that and if you go to the link provided, you see that I actually wrote “I suspect that the Uniti Nova downsamples high-resolution data so that its DSP can be applied to those data.” I provide my reasoning for that conjecture in the review, primarily because, as I found, the Naim converts its analog input signals into digital with a sample rate of 48kHz to allow it to be processed with DSP.

 

Naim did respond to my implied question in their Manufacturer’s Comment in the same issue as the review, saying “JA also wrote that he said he suspects we downsample to get high sample rates into a DAC chip that is billed as 192kHz on the Burr-Brown website. But we don’t. The bottleneck is the DAC chip’s internal digital filter. We bypass the DAC’s internal filter and do all digital filtering in the SHARC DSP. The DSP will play natively up to 384kHz, and integer-oversamples that to 768kHz before sending it directly to the DAC element in the DAC chip.”

 

So whether a “bottleneck” limits sample rate or the Naim has an analog low pass filter that results in the output lying at -1dB at 20kHz and at -9dB at 29kHz, to be frank I regardless this as a distinction without a difference. While the Naim will accept digital data sampled at up to 384kHz, the question whether there is any audible benefit of the high sample rates  becomes moot when the files are auditioned with Naim’s Uniti Nova.

 

John Atkinson

Technical Editor, Stereophile

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Interesting examples.  In my mind they differ.

 

Anti-vax: This is encouraging non-compliance with law to the detriment of public health.  Slam dunk, they get no representation.  (Though by gosh, it might do a world of good if an anti-vaxxer gave a lecture at an AMA conference with questions allowed and a video of what ensued was distributed.)

 

Moon landing deniers: I think people would get an enormous laugh out of it, same as they did the Flat Earth Society's home page with its tagline "Members around the globe!"  Let 'em come.

Agree. There is nuance to many things. 

 

I remember my mother in law saying Mahmoud Ahmadinejad shouldn't have been allowed to speak at the UN in 2011. I encouraged it because it proved what a fool he is and it was on display for everyone to see. 

 

More nuance comes into play when people start dying. When we can prevent death it's usually a good thing, although it's a quick way to teach a community that without vaccinations people will die. Sad but true.

 

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/10/26/16552864/minnesotas-measles-outbreak-immigrants-anti-vaxxers

[John Dyson]

1 hour ago, botrytis said:

I do not share the optimism of @Archimago @Doug Schneider and/or @Jud . It seems too many companies are making super high end, with out making more affordable products. Also, it seems the 'snake oil' is still being sold as ways to make your system sound better (cables, etc.). 

 

As much information that is educational out there, such as this thread, there is also just as much or more disinformation.

The problem with 'super affordable' nowadays is that except for transducers, with just a bit of competent engineering, the results can be perfect (electronically perfect.)   There is no money to be made when production facilities are in areas that don't need to support US/EU level environmental laws/etc.  Then, the IP (designs) are so easily stolen and reproduced.

 

Then, we have esoterica -- which partially comprised by frustrated engineers (mostly competent -- could just as easily produce honest designs) with backers, trying to make a living wage in the west.  I understand their plight as there are so few real engineering challenges anymore.  I would not have started my own very challenging and honest engineering project,  if I had to support myself.

 

This esoterica craze and the associated loss of integrity is partially due to cheap/but generally good quality electronics, plus engineers/backers who are vulnerable to the situation.  Even more vulnerable are those who purchase/buy-in to the malarky/snake-oil.

 

I see it as a SAD situation, not really viscerally dishonest people -- except for the shills.  These are desperate people trying to enjoy their engineering work, but stuck in a quagmire because of hyper-cheap goods and the lack of engineering challenge.

 

(JUST MY OPINION, AND IT MIGHT CHANGE ON A "LARK").

 

John

 

[Tintinabulum]

1 hour ago, botrytis said:

If people enjoy it, that doesn't bother me at all

Oh yes it does...

1 hour ago, crenca said:

However, the basis of this subjectivism rests on the objectively real - or it is nothing at all.  The current culture/hobby/industry of Audiophiledom is too too comfortable with the subjective con game...

You really should get out more...

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

The problem with 'super affordable' nowadays is that except for transducers, with just a bit of competent engineering, the results can be perfect (electronically perfect.)   There is no money to be made when production facilities are in areas that don't need to support US/EU level environmental laws/etc.  Then, the IP (designs) are so easily stolen and reproduced.

 

Then, we have esoterica -- which partially comprised by frustrated engineers (mostly competent -- could just as easily produce honest designs) with backers, trying to make a living wage in the west.  I understand their plight as there are so few real engineering challenges anymore.  I would not have started my own very challenging and honest engineering project,  if I had to support myself.

 

This esoterica craze and the associated loss of integrity is partially due to cheap/but generally good quality electronics, plus engineers/backers who are vulnerable to the situation.  Even more vulnerable are those who purchase/buy-in to the malarky/snake-oil.

 

I see it as a SAD situation, not really viscerally dishonest people -- except for the shills.  These are desperate people trying to enjoy their engineering work, but stuck in a quagmire because of hyper-cheap goods and the lack of engineering challenge.

 

(JUST MY OPINION, AND IT MIGHT CHANGE ON A "LARK").

 

John

 

Interesting take on it John. Thanks. 

 

I don’t agree that vulnerability plays as big of roll. People are willing participants in this hobby and it brings them tremendous joy. I know incredibly smart people that make conscious educated decisions to purchase what many consider snake oil. They like to experiment and try things. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, Tintinabulum said:

Oh yes it does...

You really should get out more...

You’re trolling. Stop. 

 

Nobody here is bothered by others enjoying MQA. Stop the nonsense. In fact, we often say that personal preference isn’t to be argued. People like what they like and nobody cares. 

[Ralf11]

9 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Interesting take on it John. Thanks. 

 

I don’t agree that vulnerability plays as big of roll. People are willing participants in this hobby and it brings them tremendous joy. I know incredibly smart people that make conscious educated decisions to purchase what many consider snake oil. They like to experiment and try things. 

 

This explains a lot of audiophile purchases:

 

https://phys.org/news/2017-01-facts-beliefs-identity-seeds-science.html

[crenca]

28 minutes ago, John_Atkinson said:

 

So whether a “bottleneck” limits sample rate or the Naim has an analog low pass filter that results in the output lying at -1dB at 20kHz and at -9dB at 29kHz, to be frank I regardless this as a distinction without a difference. While the Naim will accept digital data sampled at up to 384kHz, the question whether there is any audible benefit of the high sample rates  becomes moot when the files are auditioned with Naim’s Uniti Nova.

 

John Atkinson

Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

The distinction and "audible benefit" is the advantage upsampling gives you in filtering and DSP from an algorithmic standpoint - more "headroom" as it were, which allows less negative effects in the audioble band.  

 

The point is not that 384kHz (or whatever) is "audible" directly.  In this Naim's analog low pass could very well be an elegant solution, though I admit I am not clear as to what problem they are trying to solve with it.

 

Like I said upstream, I wonder if an analog low pass is not why the Mytek you measured with the MQA filter is measuring as it does...just a thought/speculation around the Mytek.

[Rt66indierock]

24 minutes ago, Tintinabulum said:

Oh yes it does...

You really should get out more...

 

I like trolls and people who make bad purchasing decisions. You are both.

[mansr]

52 minutes ago, Jud said:

Anti-vax: This is encouraging non-compliance with law to the detriment of public health.  Slam dunk, they get no representation.  (Though by gosh, it might do a world of good if an anti-vaxxer gave a lecture at an AMA conference with questions allowed and a video of what ensued was distributed.)

I image some tables would be pounded with shoes.

 

52 minutes ago, Jud said:

Moon landing deniers: I think people would get an enormous laugh out of it, same as they did the Flat Earth Society's home page with its tagline "Members around the globe!"  Let 'em come.

We know what happens to moon landing deniers. They get punched in the face by Buzz Aldrin.

[John Dyson]

34 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Interesting take on it John. Thanks. 

 

I don’t agree that vulnerability plays as big of roll. People are willing participants in this hobby and it brings them tremendous joy. I know incredibly smart people that make conscious educated decisions to purchase what many consider snake oil. They like to experiment and try things. 

I hear what you are saying -- but I am speaking as someone who used to have a music listening hobby.  When all is said and done, the esoterica doesn't fix the horrible mastering, even with digital media.

Bringing joy?  Well, maybe.  More, purchase out of frustration -- poor quality material?  Maybe also...

 

John

[botrytis]

37 minutes ago, Tintinabulum said:

Oh yes it does...

You really should get out more...

 

No I don't care. What I do care about is the truth that MQA IS NOT HIGH RES, it is pseudo high res. Anything else is a lie. If people want to pay more for it, fine, but I am not buying it. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

When all is said and done, the esoterica doesn't fix the horrible mastering, even with digital media.

Agree 100%. But, we can only control what we purchase. I wish we could control the sound of our favorite albums. 

[botrytis]

5 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

 When all is said and done, the esoterica doesn't fix the horrible mastering, even with digital media.

 

But it sure looks purty

[The Computer Audiophile]

30 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

This explains a lot of audiophile purchases:

 

https://phys.org/news/2017-01-facts-beliefs-identity-seeds-science.html

That's interesting and can apply to support for MQA as well. 

 

I was interviewed by a local newspaper outside my daughter's school, about the low vaccination rates in her class. I've been trying to wrap my head around why so many highly educated parents have elected to not vaccinate their kids at the school. That article is a good one and may help explain it. 

[lucretius]

15 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

The fact that the old guard won't agree 2+2=4 if they don't know who said it, is comical.

 

One wonders what number field/rational domain the old guard is employing.

[Jud]

30 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

I hear what you are saying -- but I am speaking as someone who used to have a music listening hobby.  When all is said and done, the esoterica doesn't fix the horrible mastering, even with digital media.

Bringing joy?  Well, maybe.  More, purchase out of frustration -- poor quality material?  Maybe also...

 

OTOH, with a decent recording/remastering and a nice system, I find they do bring joy.  Several friends have sat rapt for this performance of the Heiliger Dankgesang: https://crierrecords.nativedsd.com/albums/dreams-and-prayers (the rest of the album is pretty good too).

 

And I feel as if some of the recent Beatles remasterings (Love, Sgt. Pepper - awaiting Abbey Road) bring me a little closer to them.

 

Desert walks listening with a phone and IEMs are lovely as well, so I very much agree that happiness is possible without a big system.  Sometimes it's nice though.  🙂

[lucretius]

12 hours ago, Archimago said:

However, for us in the audiophile world, I'd like to think that we've been in the era of "fake news" and BS claims for way too long already...

 

You know, it's becoming more and more difficult to distinguish between Bob Stuart and other BS. Maybe it's a case of BS by any other name ...

[Jud]

36 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

That's interesting and can apply to support for MQA as well. 

 

I was interviewed by a local newspaper outside my daughter's school, about the low vaccination rates in her class. I've been trying to wrap my head around why so many highly educated parents have elected to not vaccinate their kids at the school. That article is a good one and may help explain it. 

 

There was a famous paper regarding a doomsday sect who, after the appointed date had come and gone, simply fastened on a new date, and were again unshakable in their belief.  (Several years ago an evangelical radio station in the area where I worked at the time had a highway billboard with a date just a few weeks hence for the Rapture, telling people to get ready.  I posted a photo on Facebook wondering why they were still bothering with marketing.)

 

I can't recall whether it was the same paper or succeeding ones that showed exposure to contrary information actually makes people hold onto their original attitudes more strongly, rather than persuading them.  (Although all the movies show dramatic closing statements, lawyers are taught it is the opening that is most important.  People will fit what they hear during the rest of the trial into the framework you establish there.)

[lucretius]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

HiFi mirrors the real world in this way.

 

HiFi needs more high-fidelity assessment.

[crenca]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

AFAIC those would be lousy reasons too, if I'm understanding what you mean.  Other folks' opinions of whether your stuff works, short of fraud proved through the legal system, shouldn't govern whether you get to have a room.  Let folks have rooms with magic amulets (or in Synergistic's case, magic pieces of metal to stick on the wall). 

 

Not choosing to book a room because they're not having success at selling anything, on the other hand, would be just fine.  Anything anyone would wish to do in terms of publicly available room response measurements, for example, would be great too.

 

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

Interesting examples.  In my mind they differ.

 

Anti-vax: This is encouraging non-compliance with law to the detriment of public health.  Slam dunk, they get no representation.  (Though by gosh, it might do a world of good if an anti-vaxxer gave a lecture at an AMA conference with questions allowed and a video of what ensued was distributed.)

 

Moon landing deniers: I think people would get an enormous laugh out of it, same as they did the Flat Earth Society's home page with its tagline "Members around the globe!"  Let 'em come.

 

If you believe that only that only the legal system should govern, then what is your basis for not allowing Anti-vaxers a platform at an AMA conference?  Why should not creationists be hired as professors of evolutionary biology - who is to say what is factual, true, and evidence based biology or engineering - besides a court of law?

 

Look, you and the @The Computer Audiophilehave a 'tragedy of the commons' problem.  On the one hand you want the truth to prevail in a communal way.  On the other hand, you want to hold to a kind of radical subjectivism.

 

You can't have it both ways.  You can't say that truth is on the one hand radically subjective, and on the other hand "wonder" why anti-vaxers exist and are even a thing even at your own children's school (there are two families at mine).

 

On the other hand, you can have it both ways, but then the commons looks like the status quo.  This was actually my point to @Archimago& @Doug Schneider - that things are not really changing in Audiophiledom to a more objective, reality and evidence based engineering and fidelity culture.  MQA might be a fraud too far for Audiophiledom, but that's not because there is a trend to a more objective/technology based audio culture...