A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[zoltan]

50 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Wow, that is unsettling! I have yet to open up mine, but this would bum me out. If yours is a new unit, I would suggest sending it back and insisting they trim the cables down to size.  Or consider asking them to upgrade all the clock cabling from the board to the backplane to silver. I seem to recall some others doing that.

The unit is new but I don't think it would be reasonable to send it back. The unit is working as described and not out of published specs. Also, I'm pretty sure that all tx-USB ultras are the same as I have a feeling that SOtM is sourcing these cables from outside. Like this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/U-fl-IPX-Female-RA-to-BNC-female-Nut-bulkhead-RFJumper-1-13mm-Cable-20cm-/330313219623

(except that this is 20cm long and not 40)

 

What is more unsettling is that this cable is a little over 3 dollars. So if a buy a quality clock cable for X hundred dollars, the total value of my clock cable 'door to door' will be X hundred + 3 dollars. I think you get my point. 

 

I had my SMS-200 ultra upgraded to silver cables inside but that doesn't cover the clock cable I believe.  

[auricgoldfinger]

24 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

BTW - the impact of the silver cable seems to matter what component it's for. In my system, I have always found the PSU (and now the cable) that powers the tX-USBultra immediately prior to the DAC to be the most critical.

 

All the (blind) experiments I did with Eric with PSUs and cables were with the tX-USBultra.

 

Last night, I also experimented with the modded switch further upstream. There too, I had replaced the LPS-1 with the LPS-1.2, and noticed an SQ benefit, although not as pronounced as on the tX-USBultra. On the modded switch, I did not find the silver cable to make as much of a difference, and I'm not convinced I could reliably tell in a blind test.

 

Given that I already have a silver cable on my SR-4 for the tX-USBultra, I am still debating whether to buy a silver cable for my switch PSU. Has anyone found a good priced cable? Zenwave has one for $150 for 0.3m (1 foot). 

 

I believe these are the cables @mozes likes:  http://audiosensibility.com/blog/sotm-audio/#!/Signature-Silver-DC-Cable/p/102414197/category=27007760

 

Ask Steven to terminate however you need.  [email protected]

 

Note the list price is $CAD so your cost is about 80% of that amount in USD.

[austinpop]

25 minutes ago, zoltan said:

The unit is new but I don't think it would be reasonable to send it back.

 

Hmm, I think it would. I remembered @romaz had an issue like this. Sure enough, CA search yielded this post:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=722848

 

To quote him (emphasis mine):

This is why I had to send my gear back to SOtM.  Because they didn't have the really short clock cables in stock, they ended up using much longer clock cables in my build which I ultimately deemed as unacceptable. 

 

[auricgoldfinger]

33 minutes ago, zoltan said:

The unit is new but I don't think it would be reasonable to send it back. The unit is working as described and not out of published specs. Also, I'm pretty sure that all tx-USB ultras are the same as I have a feeling that SOtM is sourcing these cables from outside. Like this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/U-fl-IPX-Female-RA-to-BNC-female-Nut-bulkhead-RFJumper-1-13mm-Cable-20cm-/330313219623

(except that this is 20cm long and not 40)

 

What is more unsettling is that this cable is a little over 3 dollars. So if a buy a quality clock cable for X hundred dollars, the total value of my clock cable 'door to door' will be X hundred + 3 dollars. I think you get my point. 

 

I had my SMS-200 ultra upgraded to silver cables inside but that doesn't cover the clock cable I believe.  

 

You're correct about the internal silver wire upgrade not covering the clock cable.

 

Your point about the low quality clock cable is quite valid.  Nevertheless, by all reports, the external clock cables still matter. 

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, zoltan said:

 

 

Is there a trick to opening up the tX? I unscrewed the 4 x T8 screws each on the front and back, but how do I get the top off to expose the boards?

[spotforscott]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

Scott, is this the same question you PM'ed me?

 

I've never run Roon Core on a Mac, but I find it weird that if you can "see" and navigate to your music folder on the NAS in Finder, there is no reason why you should not be able to do so in you Storage settings in Roon.

 

The only other gotcha for Roon with the sMS is to make sure you've enabled the Roon Ready app in the sMS. You should be able to connect to the sMS by typing http://eunhasu.local (on a Mac) in your browser. Make sure your Roon Ready app is "Active." You should also go through the settings - both the general settings, and the Roon settings.

Yes Rajiv, yes, same question. Very frustrated. The sms200 is active as per the link you reference. I even did that ssh option referenced earlier in the thread but still does not work. Really makes me wish that I did not purchase a modded mini mac, I would have been better served with an audio server with storage 

[LTG2010]

13 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Is there a trick to opening up the tX? I unscrewed the 4 x T8 screws each on the front and back, but how do I get the top off to expose the boards?

If it's like the sMS200 Ultra (I think they share the same box?) the front face lays flat inside and you pull the whole assembly through from the rear, taking care to note the exact slots the boards are located so that you can slide them back in reverse.

[Johnseye]

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

You know what I'm going to say, right! It depends. To some, absolutely, to others, absolutely not.

 

Key points:

• With components of this quality, we are well into diminishing returns territory.
• Ref 10 does have more features:
  • both 50 Ω and 75 Ω outputs
  • 8 outputs. This means an excellent distribution amp, which Kenji @ Cybershaft has told me would cost well north of $1000 if/when he makes one.

For me, I want to wait and see how this space shakes out a bit more. Also, want to see how the SOtM clock compares.

 

Yup, it depends on a lot of things.  Mostly available cash and the state of someone's existing system.  But those things aside, your points are exactly what I was looking for.  Key differences between the two, and how they compare to the SOtM clock.  All spot on points Rajiv.

 

This will likely be my next investment.  It would only need an out for my sCLK, but that impacts my server and two tX devices.  It could be a big deal, or it could be minimal.  What I'm still unsure of is if it's only timing the sCLK and its connected devices, how much of an impact could it have.

[Johnseye]

18 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Is there a trick to opening up the tX? I unscrewed the 4 x T8 screws each on the front and back, but how do I get the top off to expose the boards?

 

Slide it out, but you'll need to disconnect the cable between the boards and chassis adapters.  The top doesn't come off, the chassis is a cylinder.

[austinpop]

4 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

If it's like the sMS200 Ultra (I think they share the same box?) the front face lays flat inside and you pull the whole assembly through from the rear, taking care to note the exact slots the boards are located so that you can slide them back in reverse.

 

Just now, Johnseye said:

 

Slide it out, but you'll need to disconnect the cable between the boards and chassis adapters.  The top doesn't come off, the chassis is a cylinder.

 

Please be patient. My DIY ability is low.

 

Peeking in from the front panel opening. It looks like the sCK-EX board is held in place by some kind of caulk like glob. Do I have to apply pressure to detach that glob?

[Johnseye]

4 hours ago, zoltan said:

Two things. 

For one, if you are in the EU, anything from outside the EU will cost 30-40% on top of the list price. In this case SOtM cables will be close to $1000 (I am almost sure that they will be sold around 800 euros) which makes them equally expensive as Habst. Shunyata is much more, needless to say.

 

Second, I bought a tx-USB ultra the other day as the last piece of the puzzle. I opened it to change the voltage to 12V. I noticed that the clock cable that goes from the input connector (inside of the BNC) to the board is curled up. I measured it and it is 40cm. By looking at it, it looks like more industrial than something in the league of high-end clock cables. I wonder how much our effort (both keeping short lengths and high quality) matters in this case when the last 40cm is something like that. 

Then again, given that SOtM is as good as it is (both products and as a company), my only conclusion is that they don't think that this matters that much. But why do they sell the first 1m for $700? As you can see, I am a little confused here.

 

I did the same thing.  I replaced every RF or SMB cable with shorter ones.  You can get them at Digikey or elsewhere.  Same cables SOtM uses.  There are a couple different types of RF cables, but the length is the main concern.

 

I'm guessing SOtM uses longer ones because A. they buy in bulk and B. it's easier to work with when setting up the components.  It is also possible that the length doesn't have that much of an impact.  I'm particular about that and believe it could, so I changed them.

 

The cables are pretty darn cheap and I think there are only 2 sizes shorter than the stock SOtM cable.  I bought each size just in case.

 

My sCLK is also separated from the tX-USBultra chassis so I found an RF to SMB cable so I could bypass the adapter all together.  I also think adapters can have a negative impact.  Direct and short whenever possible.

[Johnseye]

1 minute ago, austinpop said:

 

 

Please be patient. My DIY ability is low.

 

Peeking in from the front panel opening. It looks like the sCK-EX board is held in place by some kind of caulk like glob. Do I have to apply pressure to detach that glob?

 

Mine was separated when I got it so I don't know.  @zoltan what did you find?

[LTG2010]

4 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Peeking in from the front panel opening. It looks like the sCK-EX board is held in place by some kind of caulk like glob. Do I have to apply pressure to detach that glob?

If its glued to the side of the case I would think so, with the sMS200 Ultra it simply slid out when you pulled the back cover there was no glue on the case.

[austinpop]

I'm not proud. I chickened out at the glob of glue.  After having had to send my tX back to Korea once for warranty repair already, I don't want to repeat the experience.

 

I did peek in and confirm that I have that same long length of cable (coiled) that @zoltan saw for the master clock connector.That really bums me out.  One part of me wants to send it back, but I really don't want to be without it for that long.

[austinpop]

58 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

I did the same thing.  I replaced every RF or SMB cable with shorter ones.  You can get them at Digikey or elsewhere.  Same cables SOtM uses.  There are a couple different types of RF cables, but the length is the main concern.

 

I'm guessing SOtM uses longer ones because A. they buy in bulk and B. it's easier to work with when setting up the components.  It is also possible that the length doesn't have that much of an impact.  I'm particular about that and believe it could, so I changed them.

 

The cables are pretty darn cheap and I think there are only 2 sizes shorter than the stock SOtM cable.  I bought each size just in case.

 

My sCLK is also separated from the tX-USBultra chassis so I found an RF to SMB cable so I could bypass the adapter all together.  I also think adapters can have a negative impact.  Direct and short whenever possible.

 

I envy you DIY types. 

[mozes]

13 minutes ago, austinpop said:

I'm not proud. I chickened out at the glob of glue.  After having had to send my tX back to Korea once for warranty repair already, I don't want to repeat the experience.

 

I did peek in and confirm that I have that same long length of cable (coiled) that @zoltan saw for the master clock connector.That really bums me out.  One part of me wants to send it back, but I really don't want to be without it for that long.

If you are careful with soldering you can just cut the cable as short as you want and solder it to the board. Easier said than done, I know  

for the glue glob, with the tip of a small screw driver press on each one to let loose from the chassis and then slide the board.

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, spotforscott said:

I even did that ssh option referenced earlier in the thread but still does not work.

 

I understand your frustration. Perhaps it's me, but I don't think I understand what problem you're fighting. What "does not work?" Can you please try to summarize what exactly you're running into? That's your best chance for someone here to be able to help you out. 

 

I know it sounds trite and obvious, but when it comes to SMB file shares, I cannot tell you how many times a "problem" has disappeared when I rebooted everything. Give it a shot. By everything, I mean at a minimum your NAS, you Mac Mini, and your sMS-200.

 

Beyond that, don't despair. Contact SOtM ( @MayfromSOtM ) and see if they can help you out.

[austinpop]

1 minute ago, mozes said:

If you are careful with soldering you can just cut the cable as short as you want and solder it to the board. Easier said than done, I know  

 

I'm a klutz when it comes to soldering. I struggled through the labs that needed it during my undergrad EE degree, but there's a reason I went into software.  

[mozes]

9 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I'm a klutz when it comes to soldering. I struggled through the labs that needed it during my undergrad EE degree, but there's a reason I went into software.  

Software is more sanitized  

[Johnseye]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

I envy you DIY types. 

 

When you bring it by we can open her up.

[justubes]

On 3/10/2018 at 7:43 AM, austinpop said:

I sc n preparation for my comparison of the Mutec Ref 10 and the Cybershaft OP-14, I went back and looked at the latest published phase noise specs for these units, Here is the data in tabular form. Note that the OP-14 column indicates the actual measurements for my OP-14 unit that Cybershaft sent me in the data sheet.

 

Comparison of Published Phase noise (dBC/Hz @ offset frequency)

                                     

     Frequency      sCLK-OCX10  Reference         My OP-14 (actual)          Ref 10 (published)
           1Hz :                                                                   -114.8                             ≤ -116

         10Hz  :                ≤ -140                                       -132.4                             ≤ -145
       100Hz  :                ≤ -160                                       -141.9                             ≤ -160
         1KHz  :                ≤ -165                                                                               ≤ -166
      Noise floor:                                                                                                      ≤ -170

The Mutec ocxo clock has spectacular specs! 

 

I read that it is a square wave output at at - 116db ,  it is almost unheard off. 

 

In comparision,  an ocxo outputting sine wave at - 114db does like the cybershaft dont even come close.  Phase noise at output of TTL levels amd after a distibution circuit,   i. e square wave will further detelorate these specs by 1-2db, so the mutec ocxo at ots pin output of the oscillator would like be - 117 to - 118db at the least. 

 

Speaking of commercial ocxos at sine wave levels of - 116db or better,   like a BVA or Rakon top ocxo,  easily cost usd 10k upwards. 

 

Can anyone or Julian confirm the ocxo10 specs are at TTL levels and after a distribution circuit for multiple outputs still provide  measured phase noise of - 116db or better at the output jacks?

 

At these phase noise levels,  the mutec ocxo at it output before any circuits is industry leading. 

 

 

[BigAlMc]

14 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

 

Thanks!

 

What silver DC cable did you order?

 

This one:

 

https://mcru.co.uk/product/mcru-audio-grade-dc-power-cable/?v=0a382091bbc8

 

They don't list exact specs, I might ask actually, but I've bought a number of items over the years from this outfit (including most of my mains power cables) and the quality is always really good. 

 

Reasonable price and it'll be in my impatient hands in a day or two. But no idea how it'll compare to others like the one you reviewed. 

[hurka]

7 hours ago, mozes said:

If you are careful with soldering you can just cut the cable as short as you want and solder it to the board. Easier said than done, I know  

for the glue glob, with the tip of a small screw driver press on each one to let loose from the chassis and then slide the board.

I bought  the shorter but stronger cables for frequencies put tx usb in,but always disconnect when I assembling.

I think about sclk ex and sparky fit together the usb ultra chassis,throw away sotm usb board,really no need,and direct soldering the freq.

around 5cm length with silver wire.

[zoltan]

@austinpop I'm sorry for the slow response, it was night over here. Others have explained how to open it. I also found the same glue-like semi-transparent material fixing the board to the chassis. As @mozes pointed out, it can be 'detached' from the chassis with a small, sharp screwdriver but if your goal is just to check the length of the cable and not to change it, I wouldn't do it. As you said, you already checked the length. 

I think options are

1. live with it as it is.

2. swap for a shorter cable assembly - can be bought for 3-4 dollars,

3. send it back to SOtM to do it,

4. remove the clock cable assembly (including the BNC input connector) and replace it with something like this:
 https://www.ebay.com/itm/IPX-u-fl-to-BNC-Male-Plug-Pigtail-1-13mm-Cable-For-Wlan-Mini-PCI-40cm-Length/272853419086?_trkparms=aid%3D555017%26algo%3DPL.CASSINI%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D50686%26meid%3Dd178560dcd2f4339aafeef0cd862cb3c%26pid%3D100643%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26%26itm%3D272853419086&_trksid=p2045573.c100643.m3226

 

It is still 40cm but can connect straight to Ref10 (or another clock) without two extra BNC connectors. 
The clock cable can go through the existing hole and can be fixed with a cable gland. 
 

I wonder which brings a better result, no 4.: 40 cm of lowish quality clock cable but only 1 BNC connector, or no. 2. A 15 cm lowish quality clock cable 1m high-quality clock cable and 3 BNC connectors. I have feeling that the first option might actually be better and lot cheaper.

[zoltan]

9 hours ago, mozes said:

If you are careful with soldering you can just cut the cable as short as you want and solder it to the board. Easier said than done, I know  

 

 

Do you mean soldering the clock cable to the sCLK-ex board? In other words, you would not use an U.FL connector on the cable but solder it to the U.FL input terminal?