The $3K all in exercize.

[Ralf11]

Ron, I meant galv. isolation for the digital interface - the other claim for SQ problems in the interface is the need to reclock the signal.

 

 

which DAC chips from TI, et al.?  some are used in inexpensive devices, other DACs are meant for the HiFi market - I am not sure how much an ESS 9038 goes for, but ladder technology DACs can get very expensive due to the need to get the pickoff resistors very accurate (or at least some of them).  Many or most are laser trimmed.

[Hugo9000]

It appears that the ES9038PRO was around $75 a year ago.  That's still really cheap considering the cost of many units it's used in, I would say.  I imagine volume pricing by now is a fair bit lower.  But there are plenty of good chips that have been around for a while that are dirt cheap compared to that, yes?

[Ron Scubadiver]

@Hugo9000  I hear you.  Buying gear becomes an obsession for some.  The very existence of extremely expensive gear makes some feel their gear is inadequate.  A DAC chip which costs a couple of bucks can't possibly be as good as a far more expensive custom FPGA and a resistor array.  So it goes.

 

Virtually all kinds of electronics have become so inexpensive over the years but Audiophiles persist with old technologies.  They old ones are not bad technologies, but they are expensive.   New technologies like Class D amps are excellent and offer amazing bang for the buck.

 

Anyone who wants to can buy whatever they can somehow swing.  It's not my money they are spending.  However, some of them could use a lesson in manners and don't need to be so closed minded.

[fas42]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

the only real issue with great sound for $3,000 is in getting the very low bass

 

And my thoughts always are, what is this obsession with the very low bass, of most in this game? It has nothing to do with improving the intensity, impact of the music, and improves not one iota the sense of the bass line in the music - I have yet to come across a rig with mega subwoofers, etc, that doesn't sound somewhat absurd - a slightly more refined version of the boomy nonsense that passes for cinema sound stuff ... nothing to do with realistic, everything to do with a funfair ride - each to their own, .

 

[fas42]

30 minutes ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

@Hugo9000  I hear you.  Buying gear becomes an obsession for some.  The very existence of extremely expensive gear makes some feel their gear is inadequate.  A DAC chip which costs a couple of bucks can't possibly be as good as a far more expensive custom FPGA and a resistor array.  So it goes.

 

Virtually all kinds of electronics have become so inexpensive over the years but Audiophiles persist with old technologies.  They old ones are not bad technologies, but they are expensive.   New technologies like Class D amps are excellent and offer amazing bang for the buck.

 

Anyone who wants to can buy whatever they can somehow swing.  It's not my money they are spending.  However, some of them could use a lesson in manners and don't need to be so closed minded.

 

Yes, extremely cheap, value for money parts can do an excellent job. But where the 'magic' happens is being just as careful and thorough with the design and implementation of the whole, as would/should be used for the fancy stuff. Manufacturers see the equation as being, cheap parts means cheap design, implementation - and therefore the end box is not so hot, after all.

[Ralf11]

32 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

And my thoughts always are, what is this obsession with the very low bass, of most in this game? It has nothing to do with improving the intensity, impact of the music, and improves not one iota the sense of the bass line in the music - I have yet to come across a rig with mega subwoofers, etc, that doesn't sound somewhat absurd - a slightly more refined version of the boomy nonsense that passes for cinema sound stuff ... nothing to do with realistic, everything to do with a funfair ride - each to their own, .

 

 

well, I have Maggies, so am not going to argue that a system which cannot reproduce cannon fire from 1812 is necessarily deficient

[GUTB]

3 hours ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

Yeah buddy, the trolls are feeding.  I am part way on the power supply for the DAC.  A Grace M9xx has a second USB 1.5 amp input so the power comes from a Samsung phone charger and not the computer.  I also tested it with iPad power supply, but couldn't detect the difference.  Anyway, it's not getting 5v off the computer.  Low bass isn't going to happen with LS50's.  I am using 3db of boost @ 43hz and a 2 octave bandwidth to approximate the frequency response of an LS50w in its default mode.  I suspect those who claim great superiority for the LS50w are hearing the bass.  Differences in frequency response are the easiest thing to detect.

 

Those who have spent a lot on their systems don't want to hear that it can be done for less.

 

That system is "very entry level".

 

The Grace M9xx sucks — I base that assessment on the topology:

 

No real power supply.

No critical component isolation.

Junk IC-based output stage.

Digital volume control.

Essentially a toy DAC.

 

My assessment of the LS50:

16 lbs class D mini monitors, not for audiophiles. More for millennials in a near field configuration, bedroom systems, etc.

 

$3k is tough, but that doesn’t mean you have to recommend crap.

[Ralf11]

too bad you missed out on that high end nad amp

[Ralf11]

BTW, Grace usually designs for recording engineers

 

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/grace-design-m9xx-dac/

[GUTB]

This is pretty challenging so let me take a shot at it. Only new, and I’ll make it planar to appeal to less experienced audiophiles on a tight budget:

 

Speakers: http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_7 ($1400)

Amp: https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/lite-audio-dac-phono-stage-mm-mc-c-41/lite-audio-a680-power-amplifier-balanced-xlr-class-ab-250w-x2-p-1323?zenid=58eada801fd5755ad814487c0eaf085f ($640)

Pre: https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/lite-audio-dac-phono-stage-mm-mc-c-41/lite-audio-ls7b-tube-preamp-marantz-7-circuit-valves-pre-amplifier-with-remote-p-1514?zenid=58eada801fd5755ad814487c0eaf085f ($320)

DAC: https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/xiangsheng-valve-amplifier-dac-c-36/xiangsheng-da-05b-asynchronous-usb-dac-dsd-xmos-xu208-ak4495-24bit-384khz-32-192-p-1352?zenid=58eada801fd5755ad814487c0eaf085f ($230)

Source: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/R-027-MX-1A-MX-1-Android-Lossless-Music-Player-HIFI-DSD-Digital-Turntable-Decoding-4/1070003_32862865398.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.1b871dcco1etGr ($360)

 

After shipping price will likely be a little over $3k. This is a very challenging all-in target price which resulted in a heavy reliance on Chinese components with enough legitimate linear power to grip the Magnepans with authority without resorting to class D junk. A (hopefully) nice Marantz 7 copy for a pre to provide that eloquence and harmonic fullness that may be missing from that large class A/B. The DAC is a crapshoot, selected because of its price and topology (real power supply, real output stage). I wish there was budget left over for a DDC between the streamer and DAC. I wish there was budget for a loom of quality cables. I wish there was budget for power supply.

 

The key to this system are the Magnepans and a serious no-nonsense class A/B + tubed pre.

[crenca]

11 minutes ago, GUTB said:

This is pretty challenging so let me take a shot at it. Only new, and I’ll make it planar to appeal to less experienced audiophiles on a tight budget:

 

Speakers: http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_7 ($1400)

Amp: https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/lite-audio-dac-phono-stage-mm-mc-c-41/lite-audio-a680-power-amplifier-balanced-xlr-class-ab-250w-x2-p-1323?zenid=58eada801fd5755ad814487c0eaf085f ($640)

Pre: https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/lite-audio-dac-phono-stage-mm-mc-c-41/lite-audio-ls7b-tube-preamp-marantz-7-circuit-valves-pre-amplifier-with-remote-p-1514?zenid=58eada801fd5755ad814487c0eaf085f ($320)

DAC: https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/xiangsheng-valve-amplifier-dac-c-36/xiangsheng-da-05b-asynchronous-usb-dac-dsd-xmos-xu208-ak4495-24bit-384khz-32-192-p-1352?zenid=58eada801fd5755ad814487c0eaf085f ($230)

Source: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/R-027-MX-1A-MX-1-Android-Lossless-Music-Player-HIFI-DSD-Digital-Turntable-Decoding-4/1070003_32862865398.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.1b871dcco1etGr ($360)

 

After shipping price will likely be a little over $3k. This is a very challenging all-in target price which resulted in a heavy reliance on Chinese components with enough legitimate linear power to grip the Magnepans with authority without resorting to class D junk. A (hopefully) nice Marantz 7 copy for a pre to provide that eloquence and harmonic fullness that may be missing from that large class A/B. The DAC is a crapshoot, selected because of its price and topology (real power supply, real output stage). I wish there was budget left over for a DDC between the streamer and DAC. I wish there was budget for a loom of quality cables. I wish there was budget for power supply.

 

The key to this system are the Magnepans and a serious no-nonsense class A/B + tubed pre.

 

Chi-Fi is not High End.

[GUTB]

Just now, crenca said:

 

Chi-Fi is not High End.

 

When you find western electronics for that price + performance level call me. This is a very challenging budget and compromises must be made.

[crenca]

4 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

When you find western electronics for that price + performance level call me. This is a very challenging budget and compromises must be made.

 

What's next, you going to be recommending Blue Jean cables and plugging it all end to a standard wall socket?  Have you lost your High End mind?

[beerandmusic]

43 minutes ago, GUTB said:

This is pretty challenging so let me take a shot at it. Only new, and I’ll make it planar to appeal to less experienced audiophiles on a tight budget:

 

Speakers: http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_7 ($1400)

Amp: https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/lite-audio-dac-phono-stage-mm-mc-c-41/lite-audio-a680-power-amplifier-balanced-xlr-class-ab-250w-x2-p-1323?zenid=58eada801fd5755ad814487c0eaf085f ($640)

Pre: https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/lite-audio-dac-phono-stage-mm-mc-c-41/lite-audio-ls7b-tube-preamp-marantz-7-circuit-valves-pre-amplifier-with-remote-p-1514?zenid=58eada801fd5755ad814487c0eaf085f ($320)

DAC: https://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/xiangsheng-valve-amplifier-dac-c-36/xiangsheng-da-05b-asynchronous-usb-dac-dsd-xmos-xu208-ak4495-24bit-384khz-32-192-p-1352?zenid=58eada801fd5755ad814487c0eaf085f ($230)

Source: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/R-027-MX-1A-MX-1-Android-Lossless-Music-Player-HIFI-DSD-Digital-Turntable-Decoding-4/1070003_32862865398.html?spm=2114.12010612.0.0.1b871dcco1etGr ($360)

 

After shipping price will likely be a little over $3k. This is a very challenging all-in target price which resulted in a heavy reliance on Chinese components with enough legitimate linear power to grip the Magnepans with authority without resorting to class D junk. A (hopefully) nice Marantz 7 copy for a pre to provide that eloquence and harmonic fullness that may be missing from that large class A/B. The DAC is a crapshoot, selected because of its price and topology (real power supply, real output stage). I wish there was budget left over for a DDC between the streamer and DAC. I wish there was budget for a loom of quality cables. I wish there was budget for power supply.

 

The key to this system are the Magnepans and a serious no-nonsense class A/B + tubed pre.

 

will turn to smoke in 60days and no one to talk to.

[Ron Scubadiver]

6 hours ago, GUTB said:

 

That system is "very entry level".

 

The Grace M9xx sucks — I base that assessment on the topology:

 

 

No real power supply.

No critical component isolation.

Junk IC-based output stage.

Digital volume control.

Essentially a toy DAC.

 

My assessment of the LS50:

16 lbs class D mini monitors, not for audiophiles. More for millennials in a near field configuration, bedroom systems, etc.

 

$3k is tough, but that doesn’t mean you have to recommend crap.

Sucks?  You have a lot of nerve to be recommending garbage from China which might last a month.  You must be the only person in the world who has such a low opinion of the LS50's.  Who gives you the right to be on the attack?

[mjb]

4 hours ago, crenca said:

 

Chi-Fi is not High End.

I'd normally agree, but Auralic and Aurender are reputable companies commanding premium prices.

However, Classé audio moved their production from Canada to China and it pretty much killed them.

[GUTB]

Look, here's the thing. Here's a toy DAC (the M9xx):

 

 

Here is a real DAC (Chinese one I linked):

 

 

[Ron Scubadiver]

6 hours ago, GUTB said:

Look, here's the thing. Here's a toy DAC (the M9xx):

 

 

Here is a real DAC (Chinese one I linked):

 

 

The toy is the lower photo.  If it breaks you can throw it out.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/grace-design-m9xx-dac/

 

[Blake]

16 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

And my thoughts always are, what is this obsession with the very low bass, of most in this game? It has nothing to do with improving the intensity, impact of the music, and improves not one iota the sense of the bass line in the music - I have yet to come across a rig with mega subwoofers, etc, that doesn't sound somewhat absurd - a slightly more refined version of the boomy nonsense that passes for cinema sound stuff ... nothing to do with realistic, everything to do with a funfair ride - each to their own, .

 

 

 

What surprises me is how easily some in the hobby write off low bass.  If you really are interested in hi-fidelity sound, you should not be neglecting content in any frequency.

 

What you are describing is boomy home theatre sound, and it seems you you are claiming the addition of subwoofers always has a negative impact on sound quality.  I completely disagree if that is your position.  

 

It is possible to properly integrate subwoofers into any system and when they are properly integrated, subwoofers very much add to the "realism" of the musical experience.  See Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" series for additional info.

 

  

[davide256]

 

1 hour ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

The toy is the lower photo.  If it breaks you can throw it out.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/grace-design-m9xx-dac/

 

Bias blinds us to the defects of the one we are with....

[Ron Scubadiver]

@GUTB  I looked at the photo of your system.  It's gear I wouldn't mind having, but I don't have the desire to spend that much for the small improvement it would provide.  In the end, it's just a couple of bookshelf speakers with all their limitations.  In fact the LS50's are vastly superior and there are tons of reviews out there to prove it.  You would be better off if you had a pair.

 

Your room is tiny, so I can see why you can't utilize a decent pair of full range speakers.  I'm so sorry you are stuck with that space.

 

I am not cheap, tight or poor.  However, my house and most everything in it was destroyed by flooding from Hurricane Harvey last August.  We just bought another house which used up a chunk of our resources.  Furniture is being replaced bit by bit, so I will just have to limp forward with my toy DAC and totally unacceptable Class D amp until that process runs it's course.  Those components were designed for pro audio, and those guys obviously must be deaf from making music all day long.

 

So, after what I have been through since last August, I really don't appreciate how I am being treated.

[Ron Scubadiver]

2 minutes ago, davide256 said:

 

Bias blinds us to the defects of the one we are with....

My bias, the bias of Absolute Sound or the bias of those who push Chi-Fi?  Absolute sound also put the Grace M9xx in their recommended list of sub $1000 DAC's.  I probably would not have bought one for $500, but I only had to pay $280.

 

There is a long thread in one of the headphone forums with many satisfied users.  I guess they are all biased too.  I guess you support all the trolling going around here.

 

[Jud]

2 minutes ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

So, after what I have been through since last August, I really don't appreciate how I am being treated.

 

Your correspondent makes outrageous statements his stock in trade. As you have very unfortunately found out, there are much more important things in life to be concerned with.  So if you don't worry about what your correspondent thinks, rather than being outraged and engaging with him (familiar turf for him on which he is quite happy), your life will be simpler and more pleasant.

[GUTB]

3 minutes ago, Ron Scubadiver said:

@GUTB  I looked at the photo of your system.  It's gear I wouldn't mind having, but I don't have the desire to spend that much for the small improvement it would provide.  In the end, it's just a couple of bookshelf speakers with all their limitations.  In fact the LS50's are vastly superior and there are tons of reviews out there to prove it.  You would be better off if you had a pair.

 

Your room is tiny, so I can see why you can't utilize a decent pair of full range speakers.  I'm so sorry you are stuck with that space.

 

I am not cheap, tight or poor.  However, my house and most everything in it was destroyed by flooding from Hurricane Harvey last August.  We just bought another house which used up a chunk of our resources.  Furniture is being replaced bit by bit, so I will just have to limp forward with my toy DAC and totally unacceptable Class D amp until that process runs it's course.  Those components were designed for pro audio, and those guys obviously must be deaf from making music all day long.

 

So, after what I have been through since last August, I really don't appreciate how I am being treated.

 

Well that is definitely no fun. I was under the impression I was criticizing a $3k system as per the thread title.

[Jud]

28 minutes ago, Blake said:

 

 

What surprises me is how easily some in the hobby write off low bass.  If you really are interested in hi-fidelity sound, you should not be neglecting content in any frequency.

 

What you are describing is boomy home theatre sound, and it seems you you are claiming the addition of subwoofers always has a negative impact on sound quality.  I completely disagree if that is your position.  

 

It is possible to properly integrate subwoofers into any system and when they are properly integrated, subwoofers very much add to the "realism" of the musical experience.  See Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" series for additional info.

 

  

 

I agree mostly.

 

The one additional opinion I'd offer is that careful attention ought to be paid to imaging (for example, time of arrival of bass frequencies) as well as frequency response of the system.