Schiit Yggdrasil - Best DAC available!?

[Yoga]

If I may ask (and it is a friendly question, because I am curious about the answer), where did you develop the opinions you express above? Reading (where?), conducting your own comparisons....?

 

Edit: My internal editor just spoke and said "You know, this is really off topic." True. So don't answer my question (unless you already have while I write this). I'll consider whether to open another thread on this.

 

I'll answer quickly and we'll leave it at that. I've studied quantum physics, neurology, psychology and biology at various levels (along with other sciences). What we see/hear/taste as the 'external' world is an internal process/experience. Information (gathered by our senses) is sent to the brain, the brain 'transcodes' this information and 'renders' the experience we call life. That process of transcoding and rendering is wholly subjective, based on multitudinous factors.

 

Ponder this: Photons (light information) hit the back of your eye - the retina. The rods and cones of the retina convert said information into an electrochemical signal. There is no light in an electrochemical signal. That signal travels through the optic nerve (no light), into your brain (no light) which is contained within your skull (no light). And yet, what do you see? Light. The light you see is internal, generated by your consciousness. Hence a great yogi once said, "The moon, stars and sun revolve inside me". It took years of scientific discovery to prove that true and fully understand it. That's just at the biological level too. Gets even stranger at the quantum level :¬)

[Blake]

I would be very careful about coming to any conclusions on the basis of such tests.

 

I am not drawing any final conclusions from this blind testing experiment.

 

I am simply pointing out that in this particular blind testing experiment, the Yggy held its own against a rather more expensive DAC using highly experienced testers (which is on topic).... so kudos to Schiit.

 

Oh, and that creating an ideal "blind testing environment" appears to be quite difficult (which is off topic).

[Melkior]

Ponder this: Photons (light information) hit the back of your eye - the retina. The rods and cones of the retina convert said information into an electrochemical signal. There is no light in an electrochemical signal. That signal travels through the optic nerve (no light), into your brain (no light) which is contained within your skull (no light). And yet, what do you see? Light. The light you see is internal, generated by your consciousness. Hence a great yogi once said, "The moon, stars and sun revolve inside me". It took years of scientific discovery to prove that true and fully understand it. That's just at the biological level too. Gets even stranger at the quantum level :¬)

 

So basically, there's a kind of "retro analogic to digital conversion" : analogic signals coming from outside are converted into electric signals which are used by our brain to built what we call reality. Very interesting, because the point coming from that is : if we remove the natural analogic signal (perception) and connect our brain directly to a source of adapted electric signals we would be able to see, to hear, to feel whatever we want, even if it's not real. Not real, well..As long as the brain receive the right signal, it becomes reality.

So basically, we could hear music with a small electrod and an a chip under the skin delivering electric signals to the auditory nerve. So today Dac suppliers will be the tomorrow "under skin audiophile chips" suppliers :-)

[Yoga]

So basically, there's a kind of analogic to digital conversion : analogic signals coming from outside are converted into electric signals which are used by our brain to built what we call reality. Very interesting, because the point coming from that is : if we remove the natural analogic signal (perception) and connect our brain directly to a source of adapted electric signals we would be able to see, to hear, to feel whatever we want, even if it's not real. Not real, well..As long as the brain receive the right signal, it becomes reality.

So basically, we could hear music with a small electrod and an a chip under the skin delivering electric signals to the auditory nerve. So today Dac suppliers will be the tomorrow "under skin audiophile chips" suppliers :-)

 

That's entirely possible, and I would posit, the future of technology :¬)

 

We do that every night when we dream. No external input yet entirely real experiences.

 

Best get back on topic now

[gldgate]

Received my Yggy today and after letting it warm up a bit (6-7 hours) I thought I would start the test drive process. I understand that things will probably not be optimal through the first week or so but here are some initial thoughts.

 

My first R2R Dac a few years ago was a Metrum Octave which was sold a week after I purchased it. The Octave was musical but had some faults - in particular very little high end detail. I've stayed away from other R2R DAC's given that initial experience. The Yggy so far has all the positives of the Metrum without the negatives. To be fair I've heard the more recent Metrum's are better but I have no first hand experience.

 

The midrange is full and dense like I expected but the Yggy really surprised me in both the low and high end. The low end is exceptional. I have not heard many DAC's that provides this level of bass support without sounding congested. Much better than my current Sabre DAC. The Yggy also has the high end extension that the Metrum Octave lacked. My EE Supreme with Sparkos Opamps probably has a tad bit more extension and sparkle on the high end but this is the only area where it can stand toe to toe with the Yggy. I never had any issue with the Sabre DAC's midrange until listening to the Yggy. The Sabre in comparison sounds lean. On orchestral recordings the mass of strings has much more weight on the Yggy than the Supreme. As Chris mentioned in his review, the Yggy's tone seems spot on - especially with acoustic music. If you listen to Classical, Jazz and Folk, you need to put the Yggy on your short list asap.

 

So far this is easily the best DAC I have owned but I will note I have not owned any megabuck DAC's. Due to the greater technology changes in DAC's I've never felt compelled to spend big bucks here due to my perception of potential obsolescence. I've sunk a lot more money in my other electronics, speakers and analog end.

 

The only downside is I've been using a dual PC JPLAY config for the last 6 months or so and Schiit's C-media drivers just don't play nice with Jplay and Schiit's Asio drivers don't seem to work on either of my PC's with W10 Pro. As of right now I'm having to use Schiit's prefered Wasapi. However, the Yggy sounds so good I'll forgo Jplay if needed (while hoping that I can get it to work somehow).

 

Will keep monitoring things closely over the next two weeks but I can't picture a scenario that has me sending the Yggy back. While $2300 is not cheap I gain some comfort in knowing Mike has stated this is the best DAC he can build and that in a dealer model the Yggy would likely have a price tag of $5K. Also, if anything does change, the Yggy's modular design allows for future upgrading at a fraction of initial price. I encourage anyone on the fence to pull the trigger. I think you will be happy.

[mourip]

Received my Yggy today and after letting it warm up a bit (6-7 hours) I thought I would start the test drive process. I understand that things will probably not be optimal through the first week or so but here are some initial thoughts.

 

My first R2R Dac a few years ago was a Metrum Octave which was sold a week after I purchased it. The Octave was musical but had some faults - in particular very little high end detail. I've stayed away from other R2R DAC's given that initial experience. The Yggy so far has all the positives of the Metrum without the negatives. To be fair I've heard the more recent Metrum's are better but I have no first hand experience.

 

The midrange is full and dense like I expected but the Yggy really surprised me in both the low and high end. The low end is exceptional. I have not heard many DAC's that provides this level of bass support without sounding congested. Much better than my current Sabre DAC. The Yggy also has the high end extension that the Metrum Octave lacked. My EE Supreme with Sparkos Opamps probably has a tad bit more extension and sparkle on the high end but this is the only area where it can stand toe to toe with the Yggy. I never had any issue with the Sabre DAC's midrange until listening to the Yggy. The Sabre in comparison sounds lean. On orchestral recordings the mass of strings has much more weight on the Yggy than the Supreme. As Chris mentioned in his review, the Yggy's tone seems spot on - especially with acoustic music. If you listen to Classical, Jazz and Folk, you need to put the Yggy on your short list asap.

 

So far this is easily the best DAC I have owned but I will note I have not owned any megabuck DAC's. Due to the greater technology changes in DAC's I've never felt compelled to spend big bucks here due to my perception of potential obsolescence. I've sunk a lot more money in my other electronics, speakers and analog end.

 

The only downside is I've been using a dual PC JPLAY config for the last 6 months or so and Schiit's C-media drivers just don't play nice with Jplay and Schiit's Asio drivers don't seem to work on either of my PC's with W10 Pro. As of right now I'm having to use Schiit's prefered Wasapi. However, the Yggy sounds so good I'll forgo Jplay if needed (while hoping that I can get it to work somehow).

 

Will keep monitoring things closely over the next two weeks but I can't picture a scenario that has me sending the Yggy back. While $2300 is not cheap I gain some comfort in knowing Mike has stated this is the best DAC he can build and that in a dealer model the Yggy would likely have a price tag of $5K. Also, if anything does change, the Yggy's modular design allows for future upgrading at a fraction of initial price. I encourage anyone on the fence to pull the trigger. I think you will be happy.

 

 

Wow! I have been waiting to post some observations regarding my Yggy which is nearing the end of breaking in and you just wrote it for me, down to the comparisons with my own previous Saber DACs (TP Buffalo, W4S, and Vega) and my struggling with the Schiit C-Media drivers. Still, with using WASAPI with Win2012 R2 and AO in "minimal-server mode this is the best I have heard ...but I too have not owned or even heard a megabucks DAC. $3K+ is plenty to spend $2.3K is a bargain at this performance level..

 

Sometimes I think the reason folks like the NOS and Metrum type DACs is that they cure digititis by trading for some of the perceived "prescence" and detail. I listened to a Metrum at a local Ultra-Fi shop here in DC and while I did find it sort of relaxing I missed the detail. Yggy seems to have the best of both natural sound and great detail...

 

BTW. The Auralic Vega is at the top of the Saber heap for me. It really is great however the Yggy pushes past it for natural tone. I originally planned to just try the Iggy in my headphone setup with the Vega in my main system however now my plan is to reverse that once I get remote volume control worked out with a Tortuga Audio LDR passive attenuator I have on order.

 

Hope to weigh in again after I get Yggy into my main system.

 

 

IMO and YMMV

 

:-)

[firedog]

Wow! I have been waiting to post some observations regarding my Yggy which is nearing the end of breaking in and you just wrote it for me, down to the comparisons with my own previous Saber DACs (TP Buffalo, W4S, and Vega) and my struggling with the Schiit C-Media drivers. Still, with using WASAPI with Win2012 R2 and AO in "minimal-server mode this is the best I have heard ...but I too have not owned or even heard a megabucks DAC. $3K+ is plenty to spend $2.3K is a bargain at this performance level..

 

Sometimes I think the reason folks like the NOS and Metrum type DACs is that they cure digititis by trading for some of the perceived "prescence" and detail. I listened to a Metrum at a local Ultra-Fi shop here in DC and while I did find it sort of relaxing I missed the detail. Yggy seems to have the best of both natural sound and great detail...

 

BTW. The Auralic Vega is at the top of the Saber heap for me. It really is great however the Yggy pushes past it for natural tone. I originally planned to just try the Iggy in my headphone setup with the Vega in my main system however now my plan is to reverse that once I get remote volume control worked out with a Tortuga Audio LDR passive attenuator I have on order.

 

Hope to weigh in again after I get Yggy into my main system.

 

 

IMO and YMMV

 

:-)

 

Your comparison to the Vega is very telling and significant to me, as tone is one of the things it is known for. If the Yggy is significantly better, it is getting into the real upper echelon of DACs.

 

Not only interested in what you think of the Yggy in your main rig, but expecially what you think of the Tortuga passive. Does it add/subtract from the sound of the Yggy? Pretty important for lots of users who will need a volume control with the Yggy.

[labjr]

I wonder why they don't go with Xmos instead of C-Media USB receiver?

[accwai]

Ponder this: Photons (light information) hit the back of your eye - the retina. The rods and cones of the retina convert said information into an electrochemical signal. There is no light in an electrochemical signal. That signal travels through the optic nerve (no light), into your brain (no light) which is contained within your skull (no light). And yet, what do you see? Light. The light you see is internal, generated by your consciousness. Hence a great yogi once said, "The moon, stars and sun revolve inside me". It took years of scientific discovery to prove that true and fully understand it. [...]

 

Fully understood? ... To me, it isn't very clear how things would go from physical signal to object of consciousness, which is not physical. How does it really work?

 

[...] Sometimes I think the reason folks like the NOS and Metrum type DACs is that they cure digititis by trading for some of the perceived "prescence" and detail. I listened to a Metrum at a local Ultra-Fi shop here in DC and while I did find it sort of relaxing I missed the detail. Yggy seems to have the best of both natural sound and great detail...

 

What is the main difference between Yggy and the NOS type then? Is it NOS that is causing the reduction in details?

 

I once had a chance to compare a Metrum Hex side by side with a Berkeley Alpha 2. Honestly can't say the Berkeley was any more detailed than the Metrum, while the Metrum does have noticeably better presence. And once you go beyond the level of the Hex, presence and detail can increase very significantly. So it might well just be the implementation.

[Feanor]

Sometimes I think the reason folks like the NOS and Metrum type DACs is that they cure digititis by trading for some of the perceived "prescence" and detail. I listened to a Metrum at a local Ultra-Fi shop here in DC and while I did find it sort of relaxing I missed the detail. Yggy seems to have the best of both natural sound and great detail...

 

What is the main difference between Yggy and the NOS type then? Is it NOS that is causing the reduction in details?

 

The Yggdrasil IS an oversampling DAC. The big difference, apparently, is that Schiit's oversampling and filtering algorithm called "closed form", (implemented using an Analog Devices SHARC DSP), returns the original data points, not just any-old interpolation points to the downstream DACs. The DACs themselves are sophisticated Analog Devices AD5791BRUZ devices which no doubt adds to the superior presence and detail of the Ygg.

[gldgate]

Yggy burn in has just past 24 hours. Noticing as time goes on that there is additional fullness to the sound. The Yggy seems to be "blooming".

 

A key moment for me was when I stopped playing my best sounding tracks and went to Roon. I've been enjoying the Roon/Tidal integration since August but that was for the great file management and opportunity to explore new music. The SQ itself was okay but nothing great. I've been eagerly waiting HQPlayer integration so I could upsample the music to DSD (on Sabre DAC). I'll cut to the chase and say the Yggy makes Roon & Tidal almost a completely new musical experience for me. Many reviews have mentioned it but I had to hear it with my own ears to believe it. The Yggy does breath additional life into existing 16/44 files. I've got 1000+ CD's and it's almost scary knowing that there may be more on those discs than I've always thought.

[bellhead]

Excellently written review, thanks. I also have a Puget Serenity PC (from 2010), still running strong. A great machine and PCC (Puget Computer Systems) gives me great support when I have a question, even years after I bought it. A couple of Dells and an HP now in the trash preceded this (recycled to be clear here).

It's amazingly quiet with it's 2 solid state drives and a very quiet fan at low speed.

This machine feeds a Chord Hugo and a Rudistor RP010B headphone amp nicely using Tidal and Jriver for some downloaded discs.

 

The PC is a core i7 870 at 2.93 GHz w/8 gb of memory. I never added any enhancements to this machine (although I am tempted sometimes).

[gldgate]

Excellently written review, thanks. I also have a Puget Serenity PC (from 2010), still running strong. A great machine and PCC (Puget Computer Systems) gives me great support when I have a question, even years after I bought it. A couple of Dells and an HP now in the trash preceded this (recycled to be clear here).

It's amazingly quiet with it's 2 solid state drives and a very quiet fan at low speed.

This machine feeds a Chord Hugo and a Rudistor RP010B headphone amp nicely using Tidal and Jriver for some downloaded discs.

 

The PC is a core i7 870 at 2.93 GHz w/8 gb of memory. I never added any enhancements to this machine (although I am tempted sometimes).

 

Puget Systems is a great company. Everything from pre sales experience through order fulfillment and post sales follow up was first class. They really live the mantra "the customer is king". As I type the Serenity is a foot and a half away and it's dead silent. Still seems pretty amazing after years of other PC's that were a cacophony in comparison.

[mourip]

Your comparison to the Vega is very telling and significant to me, as tone is one of the things it is known for. If the Yggy is significantly better, it is getting into the real upper echelon of DACs.

 

Not only interested in what you think of the Yggy in your main rig, but expecially what you think of the Tortuga passive. Does it add/subtract from the sound of the Yggy? Pretty important for lots of users who will need a volume control with the Yggy.

 

Tortuga is backordered while waiting for component parts so I am in wait mode.

 

Will post results later but probably do not have enough patience to not insert the Yggy into my main system and use the manual volume control on my tube pre!

[labjr]

Tortuga is backordered while waiting for component parts so I am in wait mode.

 

Will post results later but probably do not have enough patience to not insert the Yggy into my main system and use the manual volume control on my tube pre!

 

Well, why would you!

[firedog]

Tortuga is backordered while waiting for component parts so I am in wait mode.

 

Will post results later but probably do not have enough patience to not insert the Yggy into my main system and use the manual volume control on my tube pre!

 

No sweat, just tell us what you think of the Tortuga wherever you use it.

[RKlein]

I am 95% sure about going down the Yggy route and have also contacted Morten at Tortuga about building his DIY kit. I am probably going to build his balanced passive over the SE version. I contacted Schiit and asked how best to take advantage of what the Yggy has to offer in regards to running SE vs balanced and they responded by saying if ultimate SQ is what I am after, then running balanced is the way to go.

[gldgate]

Yggy now has 48 hours on it. The continued "blooming" effect I mentioned yesterday continues. The wonderful natural tone was there on first listen but the sound continues to add additional depth and richness. Listening to Leonard Cohen and Tom Waits I can practically see the rise and fall of the chest cavity.

 

Before I pulled the trigger on the Yggy I scoured the internet for all the reviews I could find. The negatives generally related to slightly smaller soundstage, lack of "air" and reproduction of female vocals.

 

In comparing the Yggy to my Sabre DAC, the soundstage does sound a bit different. With the Yggy, the aural image is almost immediately locked into focus and has a sheer depth that the Sabre does not possess. The soundstage of the Sabre is less centered and more diffuse. However, this diffuseness while not as deep does seem to project in my system a tad bit larger. However, when I close my eyes the Yggy's tonal accuracy and deep, solid imaging appears more real to my brain.

 

In looking into the female vocal issue I listened to Ella Fitzgerald, Nina Simone, Billie Holiday, Karen Carpenter, Amy Winehouse, PJ Harvey and some Baroque Opera (Vivaldi's Orlando furioso). As I mentioned in my initial day one impression the Sabre DAC sounds to have a tad bit more high frequency extension and a bit more sparkle than the Yggy. This was confirmed again in my vocal listening. In the lower and middle registers, the Yggy sounds great. It's only in the top end where the Sabre can appear more impressive. If your thing is fast Soprano runs or Mozart's "Queen of the Night" Aria than the Sabre will likely give you more goosebumps. However, the Yggy provides enough vocal nuance and resonance to be extremely convincing. For what it is worth the Yggy, while not going as high as the Sabre, does trump the NOS Metrum Octave in this area.

 

Finally, the topic of less "air". For this I went to a bunch of blue note jazz recordings. If we are just focusing on sound attack and decay, the Yggy seems to have a faster attack and quicker decay than my Sabre DAC. What does this mean? As an example the drum sound is a more incisive thump on the Yggy but the sound of the symbols hang in the air longer with the Sabre. Both presentations can be very convincing, just different. I probably would not have even noticed this if Chris did not mention it in his review. But I was curious. However, if I sit back and relax and listen to the totality of a track the Yggy is more successful to me than the Sabre because it provides a more natural reproduction of horns and bass.

 

In sum, the Yggy will probably not be the perfect DAC for all people. If you listen in audiophile mode you can likely pick out specific characteristics that may impress you more on the Sabre DAC. However, when I relax my mind and just take everything in the Yggy gives me the more satisfactory illusion of listening to the real thing.

 

Don't worry, I will not continue to provide daily commentary . I just wanted to provide impressions over the first few days. Will probably provide input one more time around day ten or so when most people say the Yggy has finally settled.

[gldgate]

One additional point I failed to make. Some folks say the Yggy may appear a bit bright. I think this may depend on rest of your system. Neither the Yggy nor Sabre sound bright to me but I have a tubed preamp and amp. The NOS Metrum Octave on the other hand sounded veiled in my system. I think this is a case of individual system synergy.

[BobSherman]

One additional point I failed to make. Some folks say the Yggy may appear a bit bright. I think this may depend on rest of your system. Neither the Yggy nor Sabre sound bright to me but I have a tubed preamp and amp. The NOS Metrum Octave on the other hand sounded veiled in my system. I think this is a case of individual system synergy.

 

 

Just a thought... What about a SPDIF converter? I use a Nano with my 1704 DAC and I am pretty happy with it. I would not give up my JPlay setup I linked one which has been getting allot of good comments and is inexpensive. Good info in the thread below also.

 

Regards

Bob

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/2550

 

Top Asynchronous Xmos U8 I2S Audio USB Device Support DSD Digital Audio System | eBay

[gldgate]

Just a thought... What about a SPDIF converter? I use a Nano with my 1704 DAC and I am pretty happy with it. I would not give up my JPlay setup I linked one which has been getting allot of good comments and is inexpensive. Good info in the thread below also.

 

Regards

Bob

 

 

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip/2550

 

Top Asynchronous Xmos U8 I2S Audio USB Device Support DSD Digital Audio System | eBay

 

 

~Bob:

 

Thank you for the links. Will take a look.

 

Has anyone out there used one of these with a Schiit DAC? If so, please pass on impressions.

[BobSherman]

~Bob:

 

Thank you for the links. Will take a look.

 

Has anyone out there used one of these with a Schiit DAC? If so, please pass on impressions.

 

You're welcome. In the thread, if I recall, the Yaggi is mentioned.

 

Regards

Bob

[gldgate]

Bob:

 

You have me very intrigued with the these DDC's. Based on what I am reading this should allow folks like me with Schiit Yggy's to bypass the C-media usb receiver for an Xmos receiver which in turn should allow use of JPLAY, Bug Head and other Asio based applications rather than being tied exclusively to Wasapi. For the sake of trying to salvage my dual PC JPLAY set up I've ordered the following:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/272014777816?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

It's basically a $200 gamble to see I can get the Yggy to work together with Xmos drivers without negatively impacting the base Yggy sound. Will keep my fingers crossed. Should have a product to test in late November/Early December.

[mourip]

Bob:

 

It's basically a $200 gamble to see I can get the Yggy to work together with Xmos drivers without negatively impacting the base Yggy sound. Will keep my fingers crossed. Should have a product to test in late November/Early December.

 

You are taking one for The Team!

 

:-)

[gldgate]

You are taking one for The Team!

 

:-)

 

Yes,I will be the guinea pig on this one.