Schiit Yggdrasil - Best DAC available!?

[firedog]

Yes,I will be the guinea pig on this one.

 

Don't exactly get what you're planning hooking up to what. Could you write out the chain?

[gldgate]

Don't exactly get what you're planning hooking up to what. Could you write out the chain?

 

Sure. Instead of connecting Audio PC via USB cable to Yggy and it's C-media receiver I will connect PC via USB cable to this XMOS U8 USB Converter:

 

 

I can then pass the signal out of the XMOS converter into the Yggy via any of these outputs (Coax, AES, Optical). The Yggy then does it's internal DAC processing out to my preamp.

 

The key here is that the computer handshake is now Xmos instead of C-media which means I can hopefully utililze all the old Asio apps (Jplay, Bughead etc..) that I was having trouble using with C-media driver and Wasapi.

 

What is unclear is if the U8 imparts any sort of sonic flavoring of its own and if so is it still worth it to gain the benefits of XMOS.

[gldgate]

A quick follow up to my last post. It's important to note that the digital signal from the PC will be reclocked by the TCXO clocks in the U8 and not the VCXO's in the Yggy. While I am not an expert in clocks it appears that TCXO's are more accurate than VCXO's (and OCXO's are even more accurate still).

 

The last two posts came from scouring about 50 pages of posts on Head-Fi. So anyone with more info to add please chime in. My understanding is that DDC (digital to digital converters) are kind of like cables in that there are the usual crazy's who will collect a half dozen and have DDC "bake-offs" to see which one sounds the best. The XMOS U8 for about $150 (standard power supply) to $200 (Upgraded power supply) seems to be one of the current favorites.

[firedog]

Okay,thanks for the explanation. It sounds like it should work.

 

I'll be interested in your observations of whether it is transparent sonically or not.

 

I'm interested in having an I2S connection and this box could give me one. Do you know of any place they detailed how the I2S is setup? I see it is RG45, but not the format of the pin setup. A lot of I2S stuff today is using the HDMI format, I guess you could get a plug to convert the signal to HDMI for those units.

[ChrisG]

A quick follow up to my last post. It's important to note that the digital signal from the PC will be reclocked by the TCXO clocks in the U8 and not the VCXO's in the Yggy. While I am not an expert in clocks it appears that TCXO's are more accurate than VCXO's (and OCXO's are even more accurate still).

 

The last two posts came from scouring about 50 pages of posts on Head-Fi. So anyone with more info to add please chime in. My understanding is that DDC (digital to digital converters) are kind of like cables in that there are the usual crazy's who will collect a half dozen and have DDC "bake-offs" to see which one sounds the best. The XMOS U8 for about $150 (standard power supply) to $200 (Upgraded power supply) seems to be one of the current favorites.

 

doesn't Yggy reclock all of the digital inputs?

[BobSherman]

A quick follow up to my last post. It's important to note that the digital signal from the PC will be reclocked by the TCXO clocks in the U8 and not the VCXO's in the Yggy. While I am not an expert in clocks it appears that TCXO's are more accurate than VCXO's (and OCXO's are even more accurate still).

 

The last two posts came from scouring about 50 pages of posts on Head-Fi. So anyone with more info to add please chime in. My understanding is that DDC (digital to digital converters) are kind of like cables in that there are the usual crazy's who will collect a half dozen and have DDC "bake-offs" to see which one sounds the best. The XMOS U8 for about $150 (standard power supply) to $200 (Upgraded power supply) seems to be one of the current favorites.

 

From what I have read I think you will be happy. I am planing on getting a Yagy or Gungnir MB also, and will be doing the same thing.

 

I have a Nano which is Xmos and it works well as a spdif adapter. I will eventually also pick up a U8 which should be better from what people are saying.

 

My system already sounds pretty amazing IMO. Currently using an older modded dual 1704 Pacific Valve DAC. I have also had MiniMax + ESS which I liked. Still have AKM and BB DACs, but there is something just different (maybe organic?) about NOS. So I am looking forward to the even better sounding Schiit!

 

Regards

Bob

[gldgate]

doesn't Yggy reclock all of the digital inputs?

 

That's a good point Chris. I'm not sure. In doing some further reading in the thread there is mention of master and slave clocks so I don't know if ultimately the signal gets double clocked (first in U8 box, second in Yggy) or if there is a master-slave relationship between the boxes. My aim in this little experiment is to see if I can bypass C-Media for Xmos and it is my understanding that this may be accomplished here. Only reason I'm willing to do this is because the U8 is an external box so if there is any SQ issue I can remove it from the chain completely and go back to default. Thought it would be worth a shot.

[gldgate]

From what I have read I think you will be happy. I am planing on getting a Yagy or Gungnir MB also, and will be doing the same thing.

 

I have a Nano which is Xmos and it works well as a spdif adapter. I will eventually also pick up a U8 which should be better from what people are saying.

 

My system already sounds pretty amazing IMO. Currently using an older modded dual 1704 Pacific Valve DAC. I have also had MiniMax + ESS which I liked. Still have AKM and BB DACs, but there is something just different (maybe organic?) about NOS. So I am looking forward to the even better sounding Schiit!

 

Regards

Bob

 

Thanks again for the info. If I can get the Yggy to work with Xmos while keeping the Yggy "house sound" I will be thrilled. Even though the Yggy sounds more natural than my ESS DAC I am going to keep both so I have a way to play both native and upsampled DSD if I wish. From what I've heard, those looking for more of the classic NOS sound might want to get Gungnir over the Yggy. While I have not heard Gungnir reports are that while it is less detailed it has a slightly warmer and more euphonic sound that many find pleasing.

[gldgate]

Okay,thanks for the explanation. It sounds like it should work.

 

I'll be interested in your observations of whether it is transparent sonically or not.

 

I'm interested in having an I2S connection and this box could give me one. Do you know of any place they detailed how the I2S is setup? I see it is RG45, but not the format of the pin setup. A lot of I2S stuff today is using the HDMI format, I guess you could get a plug to convert the signal to HDMI for those units.

 

While I do not know, I would recommend going over to the Head-Fi and asking in this thread:

 

~http://www.head-fi.org/t/736294/gustard-u12-usb-interface-8-core-xmos-chip

 

 

 

I would bet some of the members over there have I2S connections and can help. What I have read is even though many of these Xmos boxes have I2S connectors it does not appear they uniformly work on all I2S DAC's. Perhaps an implementation issue on some of these 3rd party boxes.

[JR4321]

[clipper]

Great writeups on your initial impressions of the Yggy, gldgate. Thanks.

 

My Yggy came today.

 

I didn't think it would work, but I got Schiit's ASIO driver going with it on my WS2012r2 + AO audio pc.

 

It works in core mode with JPLAY and kernel streaming.

 

Don't ask me why, but in JPLAY the correct "Playing via" source is KS: Speaker. See attached screenshot (of JPLAY running on my Windows 10 control pc but choosing the Dac on my WS2012 AO (core mode) audio pc.

 

Steps for installing the ASIO driver (after you download it and unzip it):

 

1) Find the driverless Schiit DAC in Device Manager (under Other Devices).

2) Double click it, hit the Driver tab and hit Update Driver.

3) Choose Browse my computer for driver software and point it to the driver directory (wherever you put it\schiit_asio_1_01\CM6632A_ASIO_CPL-1.01(CR)\WIN81\SoftwareDriver\Driver).

4) The rest should be easy.

5) Note - When I installed it on the WS2012r2 machine, I booted with "Disable Driver Signature Enforcement." See Windows Server 2012 R2: Install unsigned drivers - Shared technical tips from Emmanuel Bergerat - Site Home - MSDN Blogs. I don't know if this was necessary or not...

 

Hope this works for you!

 

By the way, I have a Gustard U12 that I'll try to hook up soon to compare...

 

[gldgate]

Clipper:

 

Thank you so much. I did need to go the extra step and install unsigned drivers. I'm so stoked. Yggy now working in Dual PC Jplay mode via kernel streaming. I probably spent $200 that I did not need to but I have a new audio toy I can tinker with so it's not all bad. Time for more listening...

[photonblur]

Yggy + Regen after 3 wks:

 

With well produced/mastered music Yggy is

immersive and addicting to the point where

critical listening becomes a wasted after-thought.

There's a balanced tonality that creates an

emotional response that mirrors a live music

experience. My previous more expensive dac

had a presentation where some factor, usually

cymbals or bass, seemed outside of a coherent

musical flow. A phony emphasis. Yggy just

gets it right.

 

Sadly there is a lot of good poorly recorded

music that sounds better on my less

revealing second system.

 

pb-

[JohnSwenson]

A quick follow up to my last post. It's important to note that the digital signal from the PC will be reclocked by the TCXO clocks in the U8 and not the VCXO's in the Yggy. While I am not an expert in clocks it appears that TCXO's are more accurate than VCXO's (and OCXO's are even more accurate still).

 

OK here goes, some (hopefully) short on crystal oscillators.

 

A crystal oscillator uses a hunk of piezoelectric material and puts metal plates on opposite side and puts it in an electrical feedback loop. The crystal actually changes shape as current flows through, this changes its electrical properties. The feedback loop is setup so this causes an oscillation. (the crystal alternating getting smaller and larger). The frequency at which it does this is primarily determined by the physical dimensions of the crystal. The capacitance in the electrical circuit also has a small affect on the frequency.

 

The temperature of the crystal has a significant affect on the frequency, the material changes size as the temperature varies.

 

There are several different parameters of an oscillators frequency performance.

 

initial frequency tolerance

long term frequency drift

temperature coefficient (how much change per a given change in temperature)

and short term frequency changes.

 

The initial frequency tolerance will usually be stated as so many ppm (parts per million). Thus if you have an oscillator whose nominal frequency is 1MHz, 10 ppm means it can be off by 10HZ and be with in spec.

 

All crystals will slowly change with time. After a few years their frequency might change significantly more than the initial tolerance.

 

For applications that need a very accurate frequency the temperature coefficient cam be very critical. Several methods have been developed over the years to address this.

 

Short term frequency change is frequently referred to as jitter. I'm sure you have heard of it. Rapid changes in frequency (high jitter) can have significant impact on audio.

 

For a DAC, changes to the frequency (jitter) are usually far more important than the absolute value of the frequency. Thus an oscillator with very low jitter, but whose frequency is 20ppm off from the "official" value will usually sound much better than an oscillator with high jitter, but whose actual frequency is only 5 ppm from the official value.

 

Thus as far as I am concerned methods to decrease the temperature coefficient unless they also decrease jitter are pretty much useless, and mean you are spending money on something that is not going to help sound quality.

 

I'm going to go over what some of the oscillator types are and what those acronyms mean.

 

A VCXO is a Voltage Controlled Crystal Oscillator. It uses a voltage fed into a varactor diode to change the frequency of the oscillator (frequently called "pulling" the frequency). The varactor diode changes capacitance as its voltage is varied, thus slightly changing the frequency of the oscillator. Any noise on the control voltage will result in a varying frequency otherwise known as jitter. Thus a VCXO will always have higher jitter than a basic crystal oscillator of the same build (crystal quality, electronics etc).

 

A TCXO is a Temperature Compensated Crystal Oscillator. It is a VCXO driven by a temperature sensor. Since it is a VCXO you get higher jitter in order to get the lower temperature coefficient. So one number gets better, the parameter which has a higher impact on sound gets worse, not a good tradeoff as far as I am concerned.

 

This does not mean that all TCXOs are bad, but for a given jitter you can achieve it for a lot less money with a regular XO. Very well done (and costly) TCXOs will have lower jitter than cheap XOs, but a well done XO will have lower jitter than an equivalently priced TCXO.

 

OCXO is Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillator. The whole oscillator is placed in a small oven with a very tight control loop on the temperature to keep it very stable. Not only is the temperate very stable, but at a certain temperature the temperature coefficient goes to zero. Thus an OCXO can achieve essentially zero temperature coefficient. This isn't cheap, it costs a lot of money to do this well, so most OCXOs use very good oscillators to begin with. The result is that most OCXOs usually have very low jitter, not because of the oven part, but because by the time you spend a lot of money on the oven, you might as well spend a fair amount on the XO to begin with. Again you're spending a LOT of money on something you don't need. You do get low jitter, but you could spend a lot less money to get that level of jitter from a basic XO.

 

The problem is that it is usually hard to find a basic XO module with the really low levels of jitter, the manufacturers would rather sell you the very expensive OCXO so really low jitter XOs are hard to find.

 

John S.

[gldgate]

John:

 

Thank you very much for the education on crystal oscillators. I am guilty of paying too much attention to ppm specs.

[holzmann]

Anyone here own the Yiggy AND the Bifrost MB? I am torn. I have heard both. I was blown away by the Yiggy. But the BMB at its price point is a super tempting value. Only need SE output. Decisions, decisions.

 

(Loved the Schiit, including the GMB and Fulla, much more than the Chord Mojo I auditioned.)

[scan80269]

I just joined the Yggy club. Ordered it Wednesday morning and it arrived early Friday afternoon! This is by far the fastest I've ever received anything ordered online. Kudos to Schiit!

 

I've learned not to judge the sound of anything out of the box, but did listen for a bit with my HD 800 balanced headphones, and got quite pleased with the sound. Then I left it playing 24/192 over USB overnight, driven by an Auralic Aries.

 

I may surprise a few friends with the Yggy at an audio tuning get-together today.

[Jimmypowder]

Anyone here own the Yiggy AND the Bifrost MB? I am torn. I have heard both. I was blown away by the Yiggy. But the BMB at its price point is a super tempting value. Only need SE output. Decisions, decisions.

 

(Loved the Schiit, including the GMB and Fulla, much more than the Chord Mojo I auditioned.)

 

I can tell you that I have listened extensively to the Gungnir Multibit and the Yggy for months and the Yggy

is the better dac pretty easily .

 

I've seen people say how close they are and I don't see it . The GMB is very good but the Yggy is in a different league

 

I have sold my GMB to buy another Yggy which should be in this week .

 

I have never heard the Bitfrost .

 

Here's my advice . Buy the Yggy and your done fiddling with dacs for a long long time .

[gldgate]

Okay - it's been almost 2 weeks with the Yggy and I promised a final report before the return deadline. To cut to the chase, I'm keeping it. Easy decision.

 

I spent time today playing tracks back and forth between Yggy and my Sabre DAC. There was a section in the excellent review Chris C. made that resonates with me even more now:

 

"Another impression I received when comparing the Yggdrasil to the sound of other DACs, is that the other DACs reminded me of an old boombox I had in the 1980s that had a setting called ST-WIDE. The Toshiba boombox had a setting for Mono, Stereo, and ST-WIDE. When using the ST-WIDE setting the sound grew much larger in an inauthentic manner that was pleasing for a little while and would have been really neat had I never heard what the normal Stereo setting sounded like. I'm not suggesting the other DACs in my comparison sounded anything like the old Toshiba boombox, rather these DACs may have an unnaturally large soundstage or be memorializing transients to sound bigger than the recording."

 

Bingo.The Yggy presents a rock solid stereo image with very realistic tone. My Sabre DAC throws a larger (but more airy and less solid) soundstage that without context seems impressive. However, in comparison to the Yggy that soundstage now reveals itself ultimately as more artificial sounding to my ears.

[gldgate]

When I originally received my Yggy I was having issues getting it to work with Jplay (quickly rectified with this forum's help). However, before the fix I ordered a XMOS U8 USB Converter off ebay as another potential solution. It was getting some good reviews on Head-Fi, especially for the price ($200 shipped for version with Talema transformer). Been playing around with it for about a week with AES connection. Have to say for the price it certainly exceeded my expectations.

 

As I've mentioned above in my comparison of Yggy with my Eastern Electric Supreme (Sabre) DAC, the Yggy has a smaller soundstage but imaging is extremely locked in with better detail. EE sounds larger with more air but imaging is much more diffuse. The Yggy presentation with the USB converter is in the middle. Larger soundstage than stock Yggy but with better clarity and imaging than the EE.

 

Right now I prefer the stock Yggy with acoustic music (Classical, Jazz, Folk) but the slightly larger and more airy presentation (while still retaining lots of detail) is extremely nice with a lot of pop music - especially with electronic or studio effects (Lana Del Rey, Chelsea Wolfe type stuff).

 

Just wanted to pass along my impression.

[plissken]

I believe it's 80 bucks per chip (Schiit said somewhere in yggy thread in Head-Fi). So total of 320 dollars on the DAC chips alone.

 

Pricing is available from Mouser and Grainger. If they are paying what I think they are paying it's $86 a chip.

[scan80269]

Got a chance to compare my Yggy with an Auralic Vega at a friend's place. Both DACs were driven by an Aries with a Lifatec 20" Silflex multi-strand Toslink cable. The Vega is set to Exact clock and Mode 1 filter. The two DACs were connected to an Auralic Taurus to allow instant switching. There is a Behringer DCX2496 used as an external crossover for a pair of KEF LS50 and pair of TacT/Lyngdorf subs. Two Acurus 100W amps for the speakers. Here are some overall impressions.

 

- Vega has fuller vocals

- Vega has wider and deeper sound stage

- Vega sounds more dynamic

 

The Yggy sound is not bad at all, but compared to the Vega was a bit too polite and less engaging.

 

I had high hopes for Yggy so this was a bit of a disappointment. This is not a case of Yggy being bad but rather a case of Vega being phenomenal. I'm not sure if it was because the Yggy was only broken in for a week (with a continuous 24/192 feed).

 

Another Yggy listening section is scheduled for the upcoming weekend. Will see how Yggy does in a different venue.

[ChrisG]

If you unplugged your Yggy to take it to your friend's house and then plugged it in and did comparisons shortly thereafter, it's not an accurate shootout. Yggy has to be kept powered up. Once cold, it takes about 4 days or so being powered up to get back to the sweet spot. When some Seattle peeps take Yggy to meets, they keep it powered up with a battery backup so it doesn't get cold. In fact, we once compared two Yggy - mine was cold and a buddy used a battery backup from his house to the meet - and there was a noticeable difference.

 

Don't be disappointed, do the shoot out again, but put Yggy on an even playing field; it has to be kept powered up.

[scan80269]

Thanks, Chris!

 

We waited at least an hour after powering up the Yggy before listening to it, but that is apparently nowhere near long enough.

 

I have a spare UPS on hand. I can use it to keep the Yggy powered during transportation to the next audition.

 

To maintain continuous AC power to the Yggy it will need to remain connected to the UPS for the audition. One question is whether the Yggy sound can be affected by it being powered through a UPS as opposed to straight from AC.

[Jimmypowder]

Here's a quote from Atomicbob over at Head-Fi:

 

post #4 of 4 6/2/15THREAD STARTER

 

atomicbob

 

offline

731 Posts. Joined 5/2012

Location: On planet

After 700+ hours I feel the gap is widening between the Yggdrasil and the Vega, favoring the Yggdrasil.

Don't get me wrong, the Vega is one fine DAC and possibly best in class for delta-sigma types. But the 3-D, the sense of space, etc. is really special with the Yggdrasil.

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