Article: Upgrades To My Immersive Audio System, Plus One Deep Question

[The Computer Audiophile]

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[bbosler]

not that it matters to the uber wealthy, but with a Submerge that's maybe $140K US retail for the new speakers ?

 

and you know the real answer to your dilemma is a pair of Submerge SW 🙂

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, bbosler said:

a pair of Submerge SW

I’m out of room or I need a smaller desk 🙃

[jrobbins50]

You could consider two Lokes.
 

Blasphemy!  JCR 

[AudioDoctor]

I received an email about these the other day and wondered if you had these incoming.

[bbosler]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’m out of room or I need a smaller desk 🙃

get creative

 

1. use it as a desk

2. sit on it

3. put it in one of the the spaces adjacent to the listening area and port it through the wall

4. move

5. take over a larger space in your home

 

no more excuses.... make it happen

[ecwl]

Wow... Super excited for @The Computer Audiophile. Getting perfectly coherent surround speakers definitely improves the sound based on my experience with various friends and dealers. That said, I don't know what happens when you are already running really well-designed convolution filters although I can tell you my old speakers don't sound like my current ones with convolution filters.

 

I wonder if @mitchco might have some suggestions in terms of optimal placement for two Submerge at your place. Although they might not be the most aesthetically pleasing place for you, but I'm sure you'll get a sonically satisfying experience.

[The Computer Audiophile]

16 minutes ago, ecwl said:

Wow... Super excited for @The Computer Audiophile. Getting perfectly coherent surround speakers definitely improves the sound based on my experience with various friends and dealers. That said, I don't know what happens when you are already running really well-designed convolution filters although I can tell you my old speakers don't sound like my current ones with convolution filters.

 

I wonder if @mitchco might have some suggestions in terms of optimal placement for two Submerge at your place. Although they might not be the most aesthetically pleasing place for you, but I'm sure you'll get a sonically satisfying experience.

I’ll be working with Mitch on the system for sure. 

[El Guapo]

I personally prefer 2 subs.

One more option you might consider: room correction + upsampling to DXD thru HQPlayer. In my testing, DXD streams feed to Merging DACs has the lowest noise floor, even better than DSD. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

35 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

I personally prefer 2 subs.

One more option you might consider: room correction + upsampling to DXD thru HQPlayer. In my testing, DXD streams feed to Merging DACs has the lowest noise floor, even better than DSD. 

Thanks for the info @El Guapo

[PeterG]

I vote 1 Submerge.  Based on the dimensions, I'm pretty sure it will move more air than 1 Loke; though maybe one of our engineering friends can opine here.  Plus, it's reaching lower, isn't it?  The Loke is designed for Wilson's more modest speakers, you need (haha) the big boy 

[The Computer Audiophile]

48 minutes ago, PeterG said:

I vote 1 Submerge.  Based on the dimensions, I'm pretty sure it will move more air than 1 Loke; though maybe one of our engineering friends can opine here.  Plus, it's reaching lower, isn't it?  The Loke is designed for Wilson's more modest speakers, you need (haha) the big boy 

I’m leaning that way, but my wallet is leaning the other direction 🙂

[Kal Rubinson]

I vote for 2 (or more) subs.  Moving air is easily accomplished with bigger and/or more subs.  However, in the two quite different rooms and systems I have experimented with, the immediate advantage of a 2nd or 3rd sub (without any EQ/DSP) was a flattening of the in-room LF performance.  The more, the better.

 

Tangentially, initial work with DiracLive-ART capitalizes on that phenomenon by taking advantage of the bass contributions of all the in-room speakers without using bass management.  If your main speakers have extended bass abilities (and yours do), they both contribute to and benefit from being part of the multiple bass source effort.

[bbosler]

20 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I vote for 2 (or more) subs.  Moving air is easily accomplished with bigger and/or more subs.  However, in the two quite different rooms and systems I have experimented with, the immediate advantage of a 2nd or 3rd sub (without any EQ/DSP) was a flattening of the in-room LF performance.  The more, the better.

 

Tangentially, initial work with DiracLive-ART capitalizes on that phenomenon by taking advantage of the bass contributions of all the in-room speakers without using bass management.  If your main speakers have extended bass abilities (and yours do), they both contribute to and benefit from being part of the multiple bass source effort.

 

On the other hand, the task is simplified because this is a system optimized for a single seat. The flattening of the response only has to occur at a single spot. 

 

I would think that a single Submerge placed in the ideal spot with proper DSP will be hard to improve upon. The obvious limitation is "ideal spot." If that turns out to be somewhere that just can't work, like where one of the main L-R speakers is or on top of your desk,  then additional subs in less than ideal spots may be better. 

 

I vote for at least 3 just in case

 

 

 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

7 minutes ago, bbosler said:

On the other hand, the task is simplified because this is a system optimized for a single seat. The flattening of the response only has to occur at a single spot. 

I have only a single spot/seat that I care about.

7 minutes ago, bbosler said:

I would think that a single Submerge placed in the ideal spot with proper DSP will be hard to improve upon. 

But is there an "ideal spot" when it comes to a single seat and predetermined main speakers in all rooms.  DSP can here this but resolving it (or most of it) acoustically is preferred, imho.

7 minutes ago, bbosler said:

I vote for at least 3 just in case.

You choose wisely.

[PeterG]

8 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’m leaning that way, but my wallet is leaning the other direction 🙂

 

True that.  I have been procrastinating on demoing a Loke or two to go with my TuneTots, against my current B&W DB3D.  Some of the delay is that I concede the Loke's shortcomings on paper to the various Wilson critics who have pointed them out (without actually hearing it).  When I saw your post on Submerge, I thought "Perfect!  $15 or 20K will be an awful lot on a sub for TuneTots, but I can at least try".  Then I saw the price...oops

[bbosler]

20 minutes ago, PeterG said:

but I can at least try".  Then I saw the price...oops

 

which brings up some things to seriously consider....

• what are the alternatives when you are considering $30,000 for a subwoofer? 
• what does Wilson offer that you can't get for much less (besides matching paint and bragging rights) ?

 

 

Home theater has driven the market for subs so there are a tremendous number of options. You can successfully argue (at least convince yourself)  that Wilson offers something unique in full range and  surround speakers. You can even convince yourself that there is value for your dollar, but you will be hard pressed to make a convincing argument that it takes $30,000 to do what the Submerge does.

 

this is not one of the options for < $30K

[jcbenten]

19 hours ago, bbosler said:

 

...

 

I vote for at least 3 just in case

 

When I first started hearing about Atmos...I thought the "4" in 7.1.4 was 4 subs... you know...take care of all the bombs exploding and directional effects from car chases of movies.

 

 

[GillesP]

I still think a subwoofer when limited to the very lowest frequencies is omnidirectional, so the spatial position of low instruments should rely on higher parts of their spectrum (plucking or finger noise) that should be output by other speakers in the array. This is the case for my 15 inch Velodyne sub in my main system, and even more so for my Sonos Sub Mini in my secondary Atmos system. With good Atmos mixes, I do get a definite position for a double bass for instance, while having a good enough fundamental not coming from a definite position.

 

By the way, here is a real test for a sub: 

 

 https://music.apple.com/us/album/in-the-bleak-midwinter-christmas-carols-from-kings/1585030290

 

On track 18 there is an organ improvisation with a low D at 18Hz that is quite spectacular because of the 32 feet organ stop used. This should really sound like it is coming from everywhere at once, like in a cathedral. This is too low for the Sonos Sub Mini but the Velodyne does move a lot of air.

 

It's also very nice Christmas music...

 

[Kal Rubinson]

2 minutes ago, GillesP said:

I still think a subwoofer when limited to the very lowest frequencies is omnidirectional,

That is not the issue.  The problem is that the output of any source subject to the acoustics of the room in a manner that is dependent on its placement in the room.  The result, also affected by the listener's placement in the room, is that the actual frequency/time response is distorted.  In fact, it is unavoidable and a greater problem at the low frequencies where subwoofers work. 

 

I do not know your room/setup but the odds of a single unequalised sub producing a flat balanced respose are miniscule.  The odds of you achieving this twice are.......................................

[ted_b]

Chris,  The room is quite magnificent, and the move to a more timbre-matched set of drivers is a big deal.  I have a functioning 7.x.4 setup (and installed but not activated top middles to get me to 7.x.6) whose bed channels are made up of all Aerials (20Ts as mains, LR5s as center and surrounds) with identical drivers.....and when I decided to not only move my ceiling-based heights/tops from the classic Atmos 45/135 to a more Auro-3D-style 30/150 (hence the "need" for something top middle maybe) I switched out my wonderful but not quite cutting it SVS Prime Elevations up top and invested in two pair of the larger and driver-identical-to-my-bed Aerial 5Ts.   Big improvement, just in the driver compliment, let alone then the move to 30/150.  And once you do the prerequisite speaker pair "spatial renditioning" (getting delays perfect so imaging appears midway between speaker pairs) the results of all the drivers in synch is a wonderful aural thing.  :)

 

I mentioned 7.x.4 cuz I don't really know how to signify my subwoofer setup.  I have 3 right now, with one being a dedicated LFE channel and the other two bass managing all the bed channels.  I am thinking of going multiple LFEs but not sure yet. 

 

Anyway, more is better.  :)

 

Happy Holidays!

[The Computer Audiophile]

26 minutes ago, ted_b said:

Chris,  The room is quite magnificent, and the move to a more timbre-matched set of drivers is a big deal.  I have a functioning 7.x.4 setup (and installed but not activated top middles to get me to 7.x.6) whose bed channels are made up of all Aerials (20Ts as mains, LR5s as center and surrounds) with identical drivers.....and when I decided to not only move my ceiling-based heights/tops from the classic Atmos 45/135 to a more Auro-3D-style 30/150 (hence the "need" for something top middle maybe) I switched out my wonderful but not quite cutting it SVS Prime Elevations up top and invested in two pair of the larger and driver-identical-to-my-bed Aerial 5Ts.   Big improvement, just in the driver compliment, let alone then the move to 30/150.  And once you do the prerequisite speaker pair "spatial renditioning" (getting delays perfect so imaging appears midway between speaker pairs) the results of all the drivers in synch is a wonderful aural thing.  :)

 

I mentioned 7.x.4 cuz I don't really know how to signify my subwoofer setup.  I have 3 right now, with one being a dedicated LFE channel and the other two bass managing all the bed channels.  I am thinking of going multiple LFEs but not sure yet. 

 

Anyway, more is better.  :)

 

Happy Holidays!

Hi Ted, your are definitely one of the people who I thought about when considering the upgrade. I remember you telling me the benefits of matching drivers. 
 

Hope you can spend a lot of time listening this holiday season :~)

[vortecjr]

With all those beautiful color offerings maybe something eccentric:)

[Rt66indierock]

My vote is three subs.

[ShawnC]

For what its' worth...