Expectation Bias

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

what's not OK are the manufacturers making money off of the ignorance of their consumers,

It’s helpful to talk about specifics. Do a few examples come to mind?

[Racerxnet]

36 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It’s helpful to talk about specifics. Do a few examples come to mind?

An example might be a wooden "grounding box" with some copper bars and rocks in it. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, Racerxnet said:

An example might be a wooden "grounding box" with some copper bars and rocks in it. 

That's an idea. Do you have a link? 

 

I'm serious, it really helps to talk about specific items. Otherwise we can all get a bit carried away and make some issue seem larger than it really is.

 

 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It’s helpful to talk about specifics. Do a few examples come to mind?

Most of the cable manufacturers.

Shenyata "Research", for example.

Anyone using the word "quantum" in describing principles of their audio equipment.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, firedog said:

Most of the cable manufacturers.

Shenyata "Research", for example.

Still not specific at all, and there's nothing to disprove in your claim. 

[Iving]

19 minutes ago, firedog said:

Most of the cable manufacturers.

Shenyata "Research", for example.

Anyone using the word "quantum" in describing principles of their audio equipment.

 

17 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Still not specific at all, and there's nothing to disprove in your claim. 

 

Leaving aside meaning of "reality" for a moment, @pkane2001 correctly says this is the Objective part of the Forum - which means we should constrain ourselves to discussion of relevant data - or how relevant data may be obtained - or how we might interpret those data once we have them - or hypothetically were we to have them.

 

Data we usually have in mind come from lab/bench measurements.

 

But as the topic is "Expectation Bias", the data could equally well be Behavioural in nature.

 

Taking cables as an example (don't necessarily have to name one), Expectation Bias is not so much about how comparatively good a cable is (such that e.g. price/performance ratios could be calculated) - than it is about whether a person considers that a cable sounds better simply because she or he is rationalising a decision.

 

Conversation proposition: You can't do Expectation Bias in Objective-Fi without Behavioual data - or discussion thereof.

 

In other words - you need experimental designs - more sophisticated than DBTs - that "catch people out".

 

Please don't challenge me to produce them! I'm just focussing. To produce good, defensible experimental designs would take a lot of intellectual effort and time.

 

Expectation Bias is the result of people cognitively adjusting to rationalise an Instrumental/Operant decision so as to reduce emotional tension that would otherwise prevail - uncomfortably.

[daverich4]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

That's an idea. Do you have a link? 

 

I'm serious, it really helps to talk about specific items. Otherwise we can all get a bit carried away and make some issue seem larger than it really is.

 

 

 

This perhaps?

https://www.entreq.com/products/ground-boxes-17667704

 

[Racerxnet]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

That's an idea. Do you have a link? 

 

I'm serious, it really helps to talk about specific items. Otherwise we can all get a bit carried away and make some issue seem larger than it really is.

 

 

Sure,

https://www.entreq.com/products/ground-boxes-17667704

 

 

We use different layers of metals mixed with minerals to create a Para, Dia and Ferro magnetic  galvanic point that acts like a concentrated piece of Earth.
By changing the metals, minerals, size, weight, case construction and differing conductors we get several
levels of performance and types of groundingboxes.
Imagine the construction as a battery, but opposite. Instead of create and send out, it pull back and consume. 

 

All yours for 2499.00  

[Racerxnet]

 

A box of rocks and a empty wallet. Some stripped 12 gauge Romex and plywood construction. Oh, and some copper bars for good measure.

[semente]

4 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

That's OK with me, what's not OK are the manufacturers making money off of the ignorance of their consumers, sometimes based on their own ignorance. To continue the analogy, I don't have a problem with people living in the Matrix, I have a problem with the Matrix itself and those who maintain it ;)

 

All forums have (or had) a few messias trying to save us from ourselves but they're generally not welcome or their efforts recognised. Why not go fight the Matrix? Go talk to the exploiters, not the exploited.

[pkane2001]

Just now, semente said:

All forums have (or had) a few messias trying to save us from ourselves but they're generally not welcome or their efforts recognised. Why not go fight the Matrix?

 

It wouldn't be much of a movie if Neo just decided to enjoy an imaginary steak and didn't go to fight the Matrix, now would it? 😎

[The Computer Audiophile]

12 minutes ago, Racerxnet said:

 

A box of rocks and a empty wallet. Some stripped 12 gauge Romex and plywood construction. Oh, and some copper bars for good measure.

I see the example but I struggle to see how it relates to @pkane2001 running tests to pursue his interest in manufacturers being honest. 
 

Of course there are always manufacturers in every industry who are deceptive. Finding edge case examples is fairly easy. Given the lengths people go to and the level of distaste people have for HiFi manufacturers, I figured this would be a huge problem with web pages full of incorrect specs etc…

[semente]

4 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

The second part about ASR is a bit of a straw-man argument.  Maybe you can make that argument against Amir and his crusade, but not about ASR as a community. There are plenty who argue for listening, some who argue against measurements, and some that disagree with the measurements as they are and some who are innovators and come up with new ways and new methods.

 

 

I did write ASR Church, but you may have missed that.

ASR as a community is a large crowd of people who happen to believe in the objective approach over the subjective one. They're not any more knowledgeable than subjectivists.

ASR has a handful of experts and a few knowledgeable people but that is far from the gross of what you call the community.

[semente]

4 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

What's funny to think about is that the majority of ASR members were subjective audiophiles at some point in their lives and some still are. Many have equipment totalling well over $10k, some over $50k (this is based on a survey). Some enjoy swapping, some enjoy discovering, and others want to tinker. This is no different than any other online community, except, most would like to find out a bit more about what really works and what doesn't and why. Maybe their journey doesn't match yours, but this is no reason to crusade against them. This is really not "us" against "them", although many want it to be positioned that way.

 

I agree with the bit in bold but not the underlined part.

I am willing to bet that many if not most have not learned a thing but follow the panthers and speaker preference ratings with religious fervour.

[semente]

3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

It wouldn't be much of a movie if Neo just decided to enjoy an imaginary steak and didn't go to fight the Matrix, now would it? 😎

 

It's just as fictional as fighting the industry in consumer forums.

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, semente said:

 

I agree with the bit in bold but not the underlined part.

I am willing to bet that many if not most have not learned a thing but follow the panthers and speaker preference ratings with religious fervour.

 

You might be right about that. But just like everywhere else, you find out quickly who is who and can ignore those who are just there to cause trouble. There's valuable information and some very knowledgeable individuals if you want to learn, but that's just my opinion.

 

I'm also not sure why this diversion into ASR seems to happen on nearly every Objectify thread.  I'm not an ASR representative, and feel this thread, in particular, isn't remotely helped by discussing ASR religion or religious zealots.

 

[pkane2001]

15 minutes ago, semente said:

 

It's just as fictional as fighting the industry in consumer forums.

 

I think you misunderstood me. I expressed my own opinion about the industry. As I said above, I'm not interested in picking a fight. I'm no Neo :)

 

I'm much more interested in educating myself and anyone else who might be interested or curious and by learning from others. Those who are not curious can safely ignore everything I say, it won't hurt me.

 

[semente]

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

There's valuable information and some very knowledgeable individuals if you want to learn, but that's just my opinion.

 

I agree. But it's almost drowned into the noise floor.

[Chris A]

On 9/10/2022 at 7:36 PM, kennyb123 said:

I will keep digging into this.

I'm late to the party. Nevertheless...

 

I'd recommend taking a look at "affect bias" mentioned in Thinking, Fast and Slow, pg. 103 by Daniel Kahneman (the 2002 Nobel prize winner in Economics--for decision sciences).  Also, I recommend Rational Choice in an Uncertain World (1999) by Hastie and Dawes for a more "operational" viewpoint. 

 

This has a very deleterious effect in the design of any system of any size, resulting in the types of systems that we see everywhere today, i.e., an example-rich environment of consistently poor decision making...and resulting poor outcomes.  It's also essential reading in the rise and fall of business organizations (business cultures all have their unique sets of spoken and unspoken heuristics and biases that vary even within their own organizations).

 

A list of cognitive biases can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases  It's a long list.  A few of those have application to the present topic.

 

Chris

[botrytis]

On 9/30/2022 at 11:28 AM, Racerxnet said:

 

A box of rocks and a empty wallet. Some stripped 12 gauge Romex and plywood construction. Oh, and some copper bars for good measure.

 

Looks like older wiring in the US knob and tube wiring.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

On 9/11/2022 at 10:36 AM, kennyb123 said:

I had been catching up on this interesting thread but then this comment caused me to take a detour.  I’ve lately been taking a greater interest in psychology as I’ve been curious about what makes people tick.

 

I have heard it repeatedly often on audio forums that we all suffer from expectation bias - and it is this bias that leads many to imaging things that aren’t there.  I’ve not spent long researching this but I’ve yet to find anything that confirms that.  
 

Expectation bias comes up most often as “researcher bias” and it pertains more to conducting research in a way that achieves an outcome that meets the researcher’s expectations. That’s different than the charge leveled at those who report having heard certain qualities from a component.  It could be argued that it’s researcher bias that leads some to discount observations from listeners that don’t conform to their expectations.
 

I will keep digging into this.  Sorry about going off topic here.  Thanks @GoldenOnefor such an interesting thread.

 

I have had decades of professional involvement and interest dealing with issues of expectation bias and related phenomena like confirmation bias, research bias, observational bias/ hawthorne effect, placebo, various cognitive biases etc. This experience has been augmented by what I have seen on audio fora for over a decade. I am no expert.

 

I am satisfied however that the answer to your question will not come easily on an Audio forum.

 

The irony, not lost on some, is that people will look to confirm their biased expectations when answering the question of the role of expectation bias in this hobby of ours.

 

 

 

 

[botrytis]

15 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

I have had decades of professional involvement and interest dealing with issues of expectation bias and related phenomena like confirmation bias, research bias, observational bias/ hawthorne effect, placebo, various cognitive biases etc. This experience has been augmented by what I have seen on audio fora for over a decade. I am no expert.

 

I am satisfied however that the answer to your question will not come easily on an Audio forum.

 

The irony, not lost on some, is that people will look to confirm their biased expectations when answering the question of the role of expectation bias in this hobby of ours.

 

 

 

 

Many audiophiles, and especially the audiophile press, ignore this. They wear their biases on their sleeves.

[GregWormald]

14 hours ago, botrytis said:

Many audiophiles, and especially the audiophile press, ignore this. They wear their biases on their sleeves.

If they just wore them on their sleeves it wouldn't be too bad, but I sometimes feel like they don't know they have biases are trying to shove them down my throat.

[Shadorne]

Expectation bias is everywhere and exploited everywhere for profit and power/control. Hi-fi isn’t exempt from this - like medicine it is actually highly susceptible because placebo effect is based on feelings/impressions and so hard to measure and eliminate (unlike MPG epa ratings). Climate Change presupposes that climate isn’t supposed to change (it is a set up because climate has never ever been fixed). A high end restaurant will serve food in a top class setting with well dressed clean servers as our expectation is lower when we get food delivered in a paper bag by someone in sweatpants and a hoody. I could go on but if you don’t see it absolutely EVERYWHERE and aren’t tuned into it - especially coming from “authority” and especially after the pandemic then you may have been born in the last rain…

[botrytis]

There is plenty out there on "placebo effect' showing how strong expectation bias really is.

 

I will show one or two examples of this.

 

http://thescienceexplorer.com/brain-and-body/knowingly-taking-placebo-pills-reduces-pain-study-finds

 

https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/06/billion-dollar-brain-training-industry-a-sham-nothing-but-placebo-study-suggests/