Article: The Value Proposition In Computer Audio: Nuts, Bolts, and Building Blocks - Building a Home for Your Player Software Part 2

[Jud]

1 hour ago, bluesman said:

I was unaware of both this fact and everything associated with it, so I apologize for starting an errant topic.  But I suspect that no one will fail to understand my motivation for that link once you see the comments in the thread following the review. 

 

There are so many divergent opinions about the same device and the same issue (USB vs SPDIF) that I have no idea whether either alternative in either case (Signature vs "unsigned" microRendu and USB vs SPDIF) is actually different from the other in any way at all.  And so it is with the Raspberry Pi 4 vs other audio devices in the same role.  Either it's your slice of Pi or it's not.

 

I really got a kick out of the comments in that thread.  Here's just a tiny sample of the wacky world of internet audio comedy:

 

• "with a good clock coax is typically better than USB because of less noise"
• "SPDIF is just generally inferior to USB. So if you are hearing a difference it is just with additional distortion from the inferior SPDIF interface which is a clockless mess of light."
• "Thats wrong on so many levels its almost scary, I hardly know where to begin"
• "There is no way it can improve the sound on an rme adi. Likely it is making the sound much worse but you prefer the distortion."
• And there's this absolutely priceless gem:  "Ditch your shit motherboard instead of wasting money on nonsense audio products."

 

You could not make this stuff up if you tried!

 

One can list advantages and disadvantages to both, and find many fans of one or the other. I personally like USB DACs because they work with my use case (sending DSD512 to the DAC) inexpensively. But if anyone else prefers SPDIF, happy listening to them.

 

Now that's solved, where do we want to go next? 🙂

 

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

Now that's solved, where do we want to go next? 🙂

In this thread, we want to go back to single board computers for audio

[Archimago]

9 hours ago, bluesman said:

I'm always happy to try anything.  But since I retired, I've stopped paying for the privilege unless I want or need the item anyway, or I'm getting it at a price that will let me resell it without taking a bath.  Now that we're in an apartment, the shelves are so full that I'm even contemplating selling some of my old favorites because they're not getting used much.

 

As for the Signature DigiOne, I'd suggest reading the very revealing thread following the ASR review [sorry - I can't get the link to be hot: https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/review-measurements-of-allo-digione-signature-and-diyinhk-pro3z.4660/] before putting out the money for both the device and the 2 power supplies it needs. The wide diversity of opinion suggests to me that it's not a slam dunk improvement - if it were, more people would hear it than not.   I'm absolutely not an ASR disciple, but I find some of the reviews and subsequent posts to be as entertaining and amusing as most current sitcoms.  A quote of note in the linked thread comes from ASR's leader Amir:  "if you have a high-quality DAC, there is no reason to anguish over how you are driving it."  I have no idea what he really means by that, since he doesn't say that he hears no difference among the many alternatives.  But I can't think of much in audio or most other areas that's truly worthy of anguish.  Some truly boneheaded actions deserve a little regret - but I strongly suggest reserving anguish for the seriously major stuff in life.

 

Even the Allo web page about it is confusing.  For example, it says clearly and specifically that "You can use anything on [the "clean" side], linear power supply or pure batteries power". But without including a SMPS on that list, they apparently don't really mean "anything".

 

I trust that over the years, my criticisms of Amir sets me apart from one of the "disciples" though there are things we will agree on :-).

 

Having said this, I think in an open forum it is useful to remind folks that more "objective"-leaning audiophiles would have no issue with what he said. And there should be little need for confusion. Provided one has a well-engineered DAC (which I will also add my Oppo UDP-205 and RME ADI-2 Pro FS as other examples), different digital sources that are bit-perfect will not affect sound quality whether it's interfaced through USB or ethernet. S/PDIF might be more prone to temporal drift and jitter, but again, a well-engineered DAC these days should perform excellently.

 

That idea is consistent with the design of these devices. It's consistent with measured output. And as a guy that Mark Waldrep contacted recently because I apparently scored 5/5 "correct" for tracks submitted into his "HD-Audio Challenge II" (lucky night and I couldn't tolerate intently A/B listening for >5 tracks 😉), I think my listening is still pretty decent as I approach 50... To be honest, I can't hear a difference between different bit-perfect streamers connected to my various DACS over the years including the Oppo UDP-205, RME ADI-2 Pro FS and TEAC UD-501 or even the much cheaper asynchronous Chi-Fi USB devices like some Topping or SMSL DACs.

 

Good article @bluesman and indeed it's fun playing with Raspberry Pi's and various SBCs. Each one may have features/characteristics that would be good to have - Pi 4 has speed, true gigabit ethernet, but a Pi 3B+ might be all you need for a simple low-power 24/7 PCM streamer for example.

 

Personally I would not hang everything on the expectation of "better sound" especially when thinking of potentially spending a lot of money on things like linear power supplies and "tweak" devices. Remember, it is always possible that there is simply "no difference" which I think many Objective-Fi audiophiles would be very comfortable with until demonstrated to be otherwise.

 

I would still put most of my money on speakers, room treatment / correction, DAC, (pre)amp before otherwise bit-perfect streaming devices...

[bluesman]

8 hours ago, Archimago said:

Having said this, I think in an open forum it is useful to remind folks that more "objective"-leaning audiophiles would have no issue with what he said. And there should be little need for confusion. Provided one has a well-engineered DAC (which I will also add my Oppo UDP-205 and RME ADI-2 Pro FS as other examples), different digital sources that are bit-perfect will not affect sound quality whether it's interfaced through USB or ethernet. S/PDIF might be more prone to temporal drift and jitter, but again, a well-engineered DAC these days should perform excellently.

Thanks!  I have no issue with the statement itself. My issue is that it doesn’t actually say anything at all, let alone say what you said (and what I think but do not know for sure was meant by it), namely that SQ is unaffected - a statement with which you and I agree. Why oh why is it so hard to be simple?  Audiophiles, and especially many pundits and gurus, often hide interesting observations and good information in effete, purposeless prose that obscures rather than frames anything useful hiding within.  Like the country song suggests, I want a little less Shakespeare and a lot more Hemingway 😀
 

My aims in referencing that thread were to shed more light on Dave’s (davide256) observation about the SQ differences he heard between microRendu and Pi 3b+, to discuss his Pi USB concerns, and to consider his interest in the new “Signature” Rendu.   The strongly worded polar opposites that follow one another in that thread like insults from Don Rickles are, for me, ample support for what you and I are saying - and all 3 of my aims are touched within it.  
 

So here’s what I distill from this mash:  A well set up, normally functioning Pi or equivalent SBC will push a faithful bit stream into a DAC as well as anything else I’ve used - perceived SQ issues originate elsewhere in the chain between source and brain.  USB is not a SQ barrier if you power the DAC separately and don’t come close to the limit of available USB power with other peripherals (eg use external power if you must use a USB HDD or SSD).  An SPDIF HAT on my Pi will probably not make it sound any better, although I haven’t yet tried one and will do so - such opinions are better based on experience than belief.   And, parenthetically but to Dave’s observations, there’s not enough unanimity of opinion on the Signature to suggest to me that it’s going to sound better than the “unsigned” predecessor or a Pi. No, I’m not going to buy one to find out - I’ll suffer no anguish despite not knowing  
 

Thanks too for your approach and contributions! 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, bluesman said:

Thanks!  I have no issue with the statement itself. My issue is that it doesn’t actually say anything at all, let alone say what you said (and what I think but do not know for sure was meant by it), namely that SQ is unaffected - a statement with which you and I agree. Why oh why is it so hard to be simple?  Audiophiles, and especially many pundits and gurus, often hide interesting observations and good information in effete, purposeless prose that obscures rather than frames anything useful hiding within.  Like the country song suggests, I want a little less Shakespeare and a lot more Hemingway 😀
 

My aims in referencing that thread were to shed more light on Dave’s (davide256) observation about the SQ differences he heard between microRendu and Pi 3b+, to discuss his Pi USB concerns, and to consider his interest in the new “Signature” Rendu.   The strongly worded polar opposites that follow one another in that thread like insults from Don Rickles are, for me, ample support for what you and I are saying - and all 3 of my aims are touched within it.  
 

So here’s what I distill from this mash:  A well set up, normally functioning Pi or equivalent SBC will push a faithful bit stream into a DAC as well as anything else I’ve used - perceived SQ issues originate elsewhere in the chain between source and brain.  USB is not a SQ barrier if you power the DAC separately and don’t come close to the limit of available USB power with other peripherals (eg use external power if you must use a USB HDD or SSD).  An SPDIF HAT on my Pi will probably not make it sound any better, although I haven’t yet tried one and will do so - such opinions are better based on experience than belief.   And, parenthetically but to Dave’s observations, there’s not enough unanimity of opinion on the Signature to suggest to me that it’s going to sound better than the “unsigned” predecessor or a Pi. No, I’m not going to buy one to find out - I’ll suffer no anguish despite not knowing  
 

Thanks too for your approach and contributions! 

Pretty much agree. But I can definitely see buying some thing like the USB Sig with the DigiOne Sig board. Why? You get what you know is a well made, hi-spec unit with a decent case, and a streamer that gives you both USB and SPDIF outs - a nice feature that few relatively inexpensive alternatives have. Each of us has to decide if the audiophile aspects of the allo products are worth the extra cost vs. a standard Pi with and addon board. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, firedog said:

Pretty much agree. But I can definitely see buying some thing like the USB Sig with the DigiOne Sig board. Why? You get what you know is a well made, hi-spec unit with a decent case, and a streamer that gives you both USB and SPDIF outs - a nice feature that few relatively inexpensive alternatives have. Each of us has to decide if the audiophile aspects of the allo products are worth the extra cost vs. a standard Pi with and addon board. 

Plus, a cool thing about Allo is the company has been a supporter of this community for years and moved it’s full support forum right here. 
 

I know this doesn’t matter to some people, but if two or three products from different companies are very similar, it’s always nice to go with the company that supports one’s interests. 

[bluesman]

28 minutes ago, firedog said:

Pretty much agree. But I can definitely see buying some thing like the USB Sig with the DigiOne Sig board. Why? You get what you know is a well made, hi-spec unit with a decent case, and a streamer that gives you both USB and SPDIF outs - a nice feature that few relatively inexpensive alternatives have. Each of us has to decide if the audiophile aspects of the allo products are worth the extra cost vs. a standard Pi with and addon board. 

+1!  But the best reason I can see for buying one is a desire to avoid DIY.  Having manufacturer and vendor support is another.  
 

Rolling your own is not for everyone, and a plug & play commercial solution is best for many people. In fact, after a week of frustration trying to solve a problem in something I built, repaired or modified (which happens at least a few times every year), I sometimes find myself anguishing ( 🙂 ! ) over not having gone with the flow.  Preferring what I made to what someone else made would definitely be a form of bias.........and I’m clearly without such affliction ( ).

[firedog]

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/311086-raspberry-pi-4-now-available-with-8gb-of-ram-64-bit-os?utm_source=email&utm_campaign=whatsnewnow&utm_medium=title

 

Raspberry Pi 4 Now Available With 8GB of RAM, 64-Bit OS

[plissken]

3 hours ago, bluesman said:

USB is not a SQ barrier if you power the DAC separately and don’t come close to the limit of available USB power with other peripherals (eg use external power if you must use a USB HDD or SSD).

 

Interesting enough in that vein that Amir benched, I kid you not, the Donald DAC. It has both native USB C data/power and separate USB C power only and there's a demonstrable difference.

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

hRaspberry Pi 4 Now Available With 8GB of RAM, 64-Bit OS

Sadly not yet in stock at my local Microcenter - I'm chomping at the bit to see how well this will work as a DAW with zram.  I get occasional breakup and stuttering even with a 4 gig Pi 4 when recording live music to wavs, if I'm using any plugins and monitoring the tracks as they're being recorded.  So I still have to monitor the input to be on the safe side, which is neither a big deal nor the ideal  

We live in hope!

[PeterG]

Great piece, bluesman!  I have already made the move to a purpose-built server, but I think it's critical that there be a lost cost entryway to audiophiledom.  Plus, the Pi is REALLY cool

[JJinPDX]

I'm out of the loop on what lay behind many of the last several posts, and I certainly find the distraction somewhat annoying, given that it takes away from Bluesman's find work. 

 

All I want to say is that because of Bluesman's fine work I got myself a RPi 4 Model B with 4G on board, set it up in a basic way using Raspian Lite, got a Flirc case, and it is now happily a Roon end point using its Wifi 5g connection, grabbing music from my Synology NAS, and routing it to my Bryston BDA-2 DAC using a USB 2 port. Damn good SQ, in my opinion, although I have never owned a microRendu, which I am sure is a fine piece of kit. I was so impressed with this implementation that I retired my "Zuma" which cost me about $900 to build back when that was a thing. The RPi 4 implementation cost $85 and performs as well, and I think better than the stock x86 creation running Win10. I love it. 

 

Thanks Bluesman for sharing your enthusiasm and knowledge.

 

JJ

 

Edit: Also, I was so impressed that I built another for a fellow audiophile in my area. He is also extremely happy with it. 

[mfsoa]

I found one very cool thing about running my main system off of a $35 Pi - It is easily replaceable!

I accidentally fed it 9V. Don't feed your Pi 9V. It makes one distinct pop noise and then starts to smell really funny.

 

Oh crap, I blew up the centerpiece of my stereo!  Another $35 and back in business.

 

Very good article and a nice counter to the Extreme Week server. Going for maximum bang for the buck can be very satisfying, and get you a significant chunk of the big-dollar sound for relative peanuts. 

[R1200CL]

......don’t forget the Squeeze Box Tuch 😂

 

An extremely nice endpoint and SQ is raised with a good PS. 

[bluesman]

4 hours ago, R1200CL said:

......don’t forget the Squeeze Box Tuch 😂

 

An extremely nice endpoint and SQ is raised with a good PS. 

piCorePlayer does a great job with SB on the Pi.  It even works well on a Pi Zero W, which is an excellent choice for a tiny wireless renderer/player hanging from the USB input of a little pair of powered monitors.

[mourip]

Does any know if you can run Audiolinux on the RPi 4 Model B as a Roon endpoint?

 

Anyone tried it?

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, mourip said:

Does any know if you can run Audiolinux on the RPi 4 Model B as a Roon endpoint?

 

Anyone tried it?

I haven’t tried Audiolinux so I can’t tell you that I know this from experience.  But based on AL website content and many web posts, I’d expect it to be excellent on a Pi 4 with Roon Bridge.