Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[Flashman]

Quote

As Superdad recently referenced Cybershaft, I thought I would alert everyone to a just-published review on 6 Moons by Joël Chevassus of the Cybershaft OP21A-D (link here).  The upshot is that Joël found the addition of a 10MHz clock to his switch to make a significant difference.  I shared with Joël and Srajan Ebaen, publisher of 6 Moons, that I have been using my etherRegen with an AfterDark 10 MHz clock since March of last year.  Couldn't be happier!

 

[Superdad]

Well here is some good news on the affordable and properly engineered clock front:

 

Mutec is introducing the REF10 NANO; due out about September; USA retail about $1,850.

https://www.mutec-net.com/product_ref10_nano.php#features

 

[doitttt]

nice  half price of mutec ref10

then mutec nano can do almost the same

[Clockmeister]

Have known about these for many months, ts not quite a ref 10, but you can use a quality DC power supply which helps, it's been geared towards audiophile usage and is a nice clean size. Will be available mid September. 6Moons <> 6Loons very odd fellow, met him a couple of times and spent almost an hour explaining how he has to charge for reviews lol Now he resides in Ireland should be a lot more sensible living costs than Switzerland!

 

[R1200CL]

@Clockmeister

Do you happen to know what OCXO is used ? I’m asking in order to find out phase noise numbers. 

[Superdad]

13 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

@Clockmeister

Do you happen to know what OCXO is used ? I’m asking in order to find out phase noise numbers. 

If you are referring to the forthcoming Mutec REF10 Nano, the phase-noise specs are already listed in the Tech Data tab of its web page: https://www.mutec-net.com/product_ref10_nano.php#data

 

[R1200CL]

@Superdad

If you and John ever would develop a clock, would that specific one OCXO you like, and have quoted prices for, fit inside your present black box ? 
 

If you where to suggest your price, what would you think? 

You may assume sine wave only. Dual 50 ohm galvanic isolated outputs, one or two 75 ohm outputs. Separate input DC power.

 

Looking inside other clocks, couldn’t this be a fairly simple design, still serving it’s purpose perfectly?

[R1200CL]

6 minutes ago, Superdad said:

If you are referring to the forthcoming Mutec REF10 Nano, the phase-noise specs are already listed in the Tech Data tab of its web page: https://www.mutec-net.com/product_ref10_nano.php#data

 

Thanks. That seems like a very good clock.  142 dBc/hz at 10 Hz. 
 

The REF10 SE120 has 148. Wonder if those extra 6 dBc will make much difference in SQ. 

[Clockmeister]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

@Clockmeister

Do you happen to know what OCXO is used ? I’m asking in order to find out phase noise numbers. 

 

To actually make a double OXCO with such a genuine low phase noise you are left with very few manufactures that can produce consistent quality specifications at that specific stated rating. The nano isn't quite the same as stock ref 10 OXCO, if you use a quality LPS you *should* be able to get very close indeed imho.

 

 

Does that small *amount* really make that much difference? good question. All I can say is I have fifty different styles and type of clocks from Atomic to synthesised/and ultimately caesium. The Mutec Ref10-SE-120 has few peers, it is that good I have sold many to electronic labs here in the UK as the main instrument master clocks, my R&D scope has a jitter quotient of 60fS in stock trim and the Mutec takes it to the next level along with all of the other test instruments on the labs.

Leo Bodnar purchased one from ourselves, they are that good.

 

 

Sound wise, it’s quite obvious, sound stage width, depth, layering and instrument separation all improve no question, along with bass depth/texture and detail, plus the overall sound gains a much more natural flow and ebb.

 

 

[Superdad]

39 minutes ago, Clockmeister said:

To actually make a double OXCO with such a genuine low phase noise you are left with very few manufactures that can produce consistent quality specifications at that specific stated rating.

David is correct as usual.  AXTAL in Germany does offer OCXOs with guaranteed performance at that level (-142dBc/Hz @10Hz offset in a 10MHz module): https://www.axtal.com/cms/docs/doc91144.pdf

Long ago they quoted us about $350 each—if you order and pre-pay for 250 units and wait 18 weeks for delivery. 

Of course there is more to a great clock “box” than just the OCXO.  Still need good power supply, case, and we’ll done output circuitry if you are going to drive more than one output.

Mutec knows what they are doing and, given that they build in some dealer margin and a full firm of sales and support, I think this new REF10 Nano is going to offer exceptional value.  

[Clockmeister]

What I can say is that pre orders for the Nano are shall we say somewhat brisk 🙂

[Exocer]

On 7/29/2023 at 3:52 PM, Superdad said:

Well here is some good news on the affordable and properly engineered clock front:

 

Mutec is introducing the REF10 NANO; due out about September; USA retail about $1,850.

https://www.mutec-net.com/product_ref10_nano.php#features

 

Incredibly interesting product. If I did not already own a Ref10 (non 120se)this would be my clock of choice.

 

As a Ref10 owner, I wonder if Mutec will eventually entertain an upgrade to allow external DC input. That would be incredibly interesting for me.

[Clockmeister]

I have asked Chris P (Mutec owner) about this on many occassions it is not on his radar I have been informed.

You can upgrade your stock Ref 10 to a SE-120 its an internal board exchange chat to your local dealer/distributor

[FIndingit]

I have always wondered about the effect of transformer vibrations on the clock. I guess German made transformers don’t vibrate.

[Clockmeister]

A simple experiment to set up, ideally a phase noise analyser (frequency domain) brought up to temperature, (you can use a high-end scope to do this as well time domain jitter) clock at optimum. Mount a quality seismometer on top of chassis you wish to investigate.

Run a series of base line comparisons, then you can isolate the chassis using various proprietary devices and re run the same tests and compare results. Using any identifying characteristics of the deviation in the phase noise that can be attributed to any vibrational disturbances picked up by the seismic sensors

 

IMHO all variables make a difference, how much depends on the implementation of said design, however with the majority of clock circuits the supply rail ripple (real world measured not specification printed in data sheets that was correlated in  an ideal lab set up lol) and the reduction of ground bounce & shot noise have a far greater effect. However, with double or triple ovens there is the extra complexity of sperate supply rails for the heating elements.

 

Circuit board stack up and layout again very important.

 

 

 

 

[doitttt]

you can use dcblocker
  effect of transformer vibrations on the clock
then you avoid that problem

very nice dcblocker

https://ifi-audio.com/products/dc-blocker/

[Clockmeister]

You can use a DC blocking circuit, but not everyone has these issues, also a quality design will have a built quality dc blocking circuit at dual differenital a/c filtration as first level power conditioning.

 

Vince and the boys from IFI a good bunch, at the recent UK audio show they spent a lot of time in our room.

[Superdad]

7 hours ago, doitttt said:

you can use dcblocker
  effect of transformer vibrations on the clock

 

Or just use an R-core transformer. Those are dead silent--in both 60Hz and 50Hz countries--and offer consistently great performance. 

[Clockmeister]

Or you could wind your own like we do that we you have total control on all aspects of production and specifications. A little extreme I know but sometimes you just have to 🤪

 

 

[Superdad]

16 minutes ago, Clockmeister said:

Or you could wind your own like we do that we you have total control on all aspects of production and specifications. A little extreme I know but sometimes you just have to

 

Sure David.  But how much would you charge for such a transformer?!  And could you build and ship 100+ units at a time? 

 

By the way, I know a bit of your background--from your postings and from some private correspondence we had a few years back. But your recent references to demonstrating at an audio show and to reselling of Mutec products leads me to wondering about your current enterprises or sidelines.  

In the interest of transparency for the readership here it probably would be best for you to now disclose whatever audio business affiliations you have going these days.

 

Thanks and best wishes as always,

--Alex C.

[Clockmeister]

Hello Alex

 

Absolutely 100%, apologies: we are a design house for IoT wareable tech, EV motor control, medical & other PDN and SMPS, aerospace control systems, some communications protocol work/time control devices (non Tardis variety) plus some digital audio work, personally specialise in dac's and PWM (done right) amplifiers. Plus a retail audio outlet. We are also offical UK service agents for many high end brands and service a few distributors and many UK dealers. My main personal fun is pullling apart the BS in the audio. We have a very well equipped electronics lab, but this is used as a helping hand as well as your own ears.

 

Transformers we purchase a small facility about five years ago, it doesn't just make that many audio applications its only ourselves that give them so interesting work as they say. Looking back at last year they supplied over 4K individual Tx's largest one we produce is 20Kva. The company stands on it's own two feet even we have to wait in turn for our units!

 

Hope that clears thing up for the chaps.

 

 

 

 

[doitttt]

 vibrations on the clock

cybershaft with built-in power
  vibrations on the clock do not occur
below there are distance pieces where the printed circuit board sits
therefore transformer cannot make vibration

it takes a lot for the transformer to hum like crazy

maybe

[Clockmeister]

I would suggest a fully gimbled Tx platform furthur isolated from the chassis, aloong with underboard suspension pieces and damping features on the circuit board and on all interfaces would be a basic starting point for any quality design of any sensitive electronic circuits.

With clocks its a simple but effective solution, I do have  model of a triple oven prototype sat on a solid block of copper some 15Kg in density using an electron micrco isolation platform plus many other vibration control devices that was used in University dissiation, did it result in such a large leap in total reduction of phase noise, NO but used in conjuction with other electrical and RF control mathods produced far more desirable results.

 

I do have a couple of the Cybershaft units and not to shabby they are either.

[Superdad]

5 minutes ago, Clockmeister said:

 

I would suggest a fully gimbled Tx platform furthur isolated from the chassis, aloong with underboard suspension pieces and damping features on the circuit board and on all interfaces would be a basic starting point for any quality design of any sensitive electronic circuits.

Miniaturized Euler springs is what @JohnSwenson has always wanted to implement for a PCB or chassis isolation system. Their properties for ultra low frequency vibrations are outstanding. 
 

[Clockmeister]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

Miniaturized Euler springs is what @JohnSwenson has always wanted to implement for a PCB or chassis isolation system. Their properties for ultra low frequency vibrations are outstanding. 
 

 

Hi Alex

 

In some of our non audio sensor feedback distribution circuits I designed a cruder but still effective model if you remember Thackery washers that in the good old days you used to torque up between a pair of DCOE/DHLA carbs and the fancy inlet manifoldwith a feeler gauge although I used a a very specific material for doing this, It works really well in many applications. We tried around a couple of dozen materials before settling on the one we use now. It did take a while to get there!

 

Although this was a few years ago prototype undergoing pre compliance testing those board isolation devices were trailed on the Tx's platforms we were working on back then before finialising the design.

 

IMHO a worth while excerise.