Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[ZeusOdin]

On 2/17/2023 at 5:52 AM, MartinT said:

have just received a Harmonic Technology Digital Copper III clock cable and it has improved the sound from my system to its best yet.  I will shortly be splitting it into two 0.5m lengths for running my EtherREGEN and Gustard U18/X26 Pro from the two clocks.

 

From where did you buy this cable?

[bodiebill]

8 minutes ago, ZeusOdin said:

Have you had a chance to compare the Rosanna with the SMS-200 Ultra Neo (my current streamer)? Was looking for a streamer-only solution without a DAC or other ancillary equipment. Any other high end suggestions?

 

I preferred Rosanne by a small margin but attribute this mainly to the use of Diretta, which is not supported by SOtM. However I heard through the grapevines that they are planning to add it in future.

 

8 minutes ago, ZeusOdin said:

DI20HE vs Mutec MC3+? I am trying to decide between the two. Leaning heavily toward the hefty DI20HE.

 

In my opinion you are leaning the right way :-) The Mutec MC3+ is a very good tool but the DI20HE works its special magic.

 

8 minutes ago, ZeusOdin said:

Amazing gear! Thanks.

The Rosanna has been replaced by its successor, the Diretta Network Bridge. And the Gustard by a Teac UD-701N (next to to an Audio-GD R8HE Mk2)

[ZeusOdin]

On 4/29/2021 at 8:21 AM, Clockmeister said:

So far you are all getting bogged down with which is best (lol), now so far none of the cables being shown or testes are a good (imho) as some RG179 and matching crimped 75 connectors

 

https://uk.farnell.com/huber-suhner/23019104/coax-cable-wire-2-54mm-75-ohm/dp/3498647?st=75 ohm cables

 

From looking at the chaps posting on here with the equipment in the signature they are a couple with top quality sounding clock cables I have listened to, most of you will not wish to go to that level. However using something similar to above which will cost around between £75 and £125 will sound damn good for your applications more so than most up to £600 mark imho.

 

@Clockmeister, can you recommend a 50Ω version of this cable? Thank you for your thoughtful posts.

[Clockmeister]

Greetings my Nordic mythillogical appreciator,

 

May I suggest this would be a more suitable cable for your device and available your side of the pond

 

https://fieldcomponents.com/t-flex-405-cable-assemblies.html

 

 

[Clockmeister]

On 6/19/2023 at 11:27 PM, ZeusOdin said:

 

Do you disagree with the principles behind the ER or did you implement tech that obviates the ER?

 

 My Nordic / Greek deity fan

 

As I do not using streaming as a main music delivery source The state of my internal network is not an issue for SQ.

I have many friends and clients who are way more analy retetive than I, some of them have happily spent in excess of $24K on the IP inforstructure BEFORE it is attached to the streaming / head unit.

 

I am not doubting the benefits of many of these types of equipment and the SQ improvements they can bring, my point is this you are at the mercey or your IP network construction, then you have that connetion form the road <> house plus the internal noise from the network it self, the issue connected with it.

 

One chap has a PS audio 20 mains regenny into eqitech BP unit into a conditioned distribution device that just feed quad series ether regen's with significantly ultra quiet power supplies around 4uV at max current draw slaved to a enhanced Mutec Ref10 SE-120 with significantly decent cables all in to a Aureneder all fully isotated and down stream of the streamer / Dac.

 

Yes it does sound rather good no question, however I can takle my N20 around and use the internal files and it sound sound more organic/natural and articulate. Granted the two drives carts can only hold around 60K amount of albums., however that enough music to a last a wee while.

 

If I need more I have 20 or so other carts with various drives and music selections available. The main deciated specially built server now tips in at just over 1PB.

 

 

 

 

[kennyb123]

It frustrates me that we still understand so little about how our networks influence sound quality.   I recently tried a product that made a substantial improvement to the sound quality of local playback and it has left me puzzled as to how it could have had such a musically-important impact.

 

All I did was swap in a far more expensive clock cable between my REF10 SE120 and EtherRegen.  The existing clock cable is a Shunyata Alpha v1, which is by no means a slouch.  What was swapped in was the $4000 QSA Landri Gamma Infinity clock cable, which a friend had sent me.  

 

The improvement surprised me so much that I had to have a friend hear it as well to make sure I hadn’t lost my mind.   I played a single track for him:  “Some People’s Lives” from Janis Ian’s excellent “Breaking Silence” album.  This track features only Janis’s voice and her piano and both are wonderfully captured.  I should point out again that this track was played off local storage.  This track been ripped from a blu spec CD and then upscaled with PGGB.

 

What most struck about the piano, was how much more naturally beautiful it was portrayed with the QSA-L cable.  More of the overtones were being allowed to emerge.  Janis’ voice was far more present as well - as if she was more in the room with us.  Switching back to the Alpha v1, it was as if some of the magic had hit a wall and wasn’t being allowed to pass.  Again, I don’t understand how this can be.  It sounded like these two cables were having the kind of influence that placed them directly in the signal path, and yet that’s not where I would think a clock cable would have an influence.

 

Despite being blown away by this, I ultimately concluded that the improvement wasn’t quite worth the cost - at least for me.   In all honesty, I wish I could afford that cable, because the improvements I heard had me in awe over how much more beautiful the music emerging from my system sounded.

 

I guess this is another reminder that “everything matters”.  I just wish I better understood this one.

[kennyb123]

11 hours ago, Clockmeister said:

As I do not using streaming as a main music delivery source The state of my internal network is not an issue for SQ.

If your system is connected to a network, the network can have an influence on sound quality, even if you don’t stream.  See my above post.  I mostly play music off the internal drive of an Antipodes K50.  The ER helps even with local playback.  

[Clockmeister]

12 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

It frustrates me that we still understand so little about how our networks influence sound quality.   I recently tried a product that made a substantial improvement to the sound quality of local playback and it has left me puzzled as to how it could have had such a musically-important impact.

 

All I did was swap in a far more expensive clock cable between my REF10 SE120 and EtherRegen.  The existing clock cable is a Shunyata Alpha v1, which is by no means a slouch.  What was swapped in was the $4000 QSA Landri Gamma Infinity clock cable, which a friend had sent me.  

 

The improvement surprised me so much that I had to have a friend hear it as well to make sure I hadn’t lost my mind.   I played a single track for him:  “Some People’s Lives” from Janis Ian’s excellent “Breaking Silence” album.  This track features only Janis’s voice and her piano and both are wonderfully captured.  I should point out again that this track was played off local storage.  This track been ripped from a blu spec CD and then upscaled with PGGB.

 

What most struck about the piano, was how much more naturally beautiful it was portrayed with the QSA-L cable.  More of the overtones were being allowed to emerge.  Janis’ voice was far more present as well - as if she was more in the room with us.  Switching back to the Alpha v1, it was as if some of the magic had hit a wall and wasn’t being allowed to pass.  Again, I don’t understand how this can be.  It sounded like these two cables were having the kind of influence that placed them directly in the signal path, and yet that’s not where I would think a clock cable would have an influence.

 

Despite being blown away by this, I ultimately concluded that the improvement wasn’t quite worth the cost - at least for me.   In all honesty, I wish I could afford that cable, because the improvements I heard had me in awe over how much more beautiful the music emerging from my system sounded.

 

I guess this is another reminder that “everything matters”.  I just wish I better understood this one.

 

 

A very good question

 

Oh, this is a very frustrating subject I totally understand this and it bugged me for close to thirty years.

Is there a magic formula? Why do certain styles of cable 'sound' more preferable than others?

 

After spending way to much in the past on innumerable cables over the years, I thought it was about time I took a more scientific approach to understand why cable ‘x’ is more desirable than cable ‘y’

So in the past seven years I have physically inspected over 400 signal cables, a lot of audio and quite a few dedicated RF test leads.

 

We have the ability to perform not just static measurements, (LRC) but dynamic VNA all S parameters (we have both 2 & 4 port versions) and finally TDR (time domain reflectometry) which measures the whole transmission line from TX <> RX, we can also use virtual probing software to determine various connector/circuit board and device impedance pathway irregularities. What this allows is significant insight into how the signal actually travels in real time and any ‘excursions’ it takes (lol). We have the ability to perform this is both time & frequency domains simultaneously.

 

While using a very high specification signal analyser to view the RF emissions all said transmission line. This enables ourselves to see pretty much the whole picture of the signal in ‘transit’ as well as viewing any spurious RF noise along the pathway.

 

To the crux of the issue, I firmly believe I had identified the key parameters that are involved in a quality sounding cable, this is culmination of over seven years with of R&D and data logging. So far it has a 95% strike rate at predicting an ‘improved’ sound over the references we use. Does it make fool proof, er no we do get surprised form[DM1]  time to time.

The most expensive test cable we have that is under 36Ghz is well into five figures and its as close you can obtain to have the perfect insertion loss figure of merit. Does it sound any good?

 

Compare to what? A $8000 Crystal Art version? Or a T-Flex 405?

 

Its’ quite a fascinating subject and one that divides many sane individuals.

[Clockmeister]

12 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

If your system is connected to a network, the network can have an influence on sound quality, even if you don’t stream.  See my above post.  I mostly play music off the internal drive of an Antipodes K50.  The ER helps even with local playback.  

 

Again I'm intrigued with this suggestion Kenny?

 

Can you offer any reason why you feel this would so?

 

I possibly could see this if you were using a normal internal network that feeds all of the house devices/ family wifi etc.

 

From a single use dedicated 5G mobile (cell) router ( internally reworked & using an ultra low noise lps) that just feeds the the N20 or what ever streamer is being used that day and nothing else via a single  quality ethernet cable when this is purelt being used for control only.

 

IF this is the case, then if could a deisgn in thr streaer issue (I do have a K50 I took in p/x a month or so back) in which case I could look atb the RF ingress while this happening?

 

Just the internal circuit board layout or the ethernet control fpga (micro processor) is used for some other control metric?

 

Genuinely intrested in you thoughts here Kenny

 

CM

[Johnnydev]

18 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

If your system is connected to a network, the network can have an influence on sound quality, even if you don’t stream.  See my above post.  I mostly play music off the internal drive of an Antipodes K50.  The ER helps even with local playback.  

+1 I am convinced that everything has an influence, power, LPS, cables etc on your internet installation

[Johnnydev]

Even your CAI system and the earthing on the right way of your whole system

[audiobomber]

58 minutes ago, Johnnydev said:

+1 I am convinced that everything has an influence, power, LPS, cables etc on your internet installation

I agree. The SMPS my internet provider supplied with their modem was negatively affecting the sound of my main audio system, even though it was not directly in the chain from the NAS source. Both modem and NAS were connected to the same Furman power conditioner, which has EMI/RFI protection. I upgraded the modem PSU and heard a cleaner sound in the audio system, 15 meters from the network gear.

 

A friend said he heard an improvement by adding a Melco network switch, even though he was playing files from his K50 and the network was only used for control with his phone.

[kennyb123]

7 hours ago, Clockmeister said:

Again I'm intrigued with this suggestion Kenny?

I suspect that the moat inside the ER is helping to block noise that would intrude regardless of whether one is playing local files or streaming.  The lowered noise floor then makes other attempts to lower the noise floor more obvious, so we hear greater benefits from a really good reference clock, better clock cables, better DC cables, etc.  And it doesn’t matter whether we are playing music from the local drive or streaming as it’s just more about keeping noise from coming in.  

[Clockmeister]

14 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

I suspect that the moat inside the ER is helping to block noise that would intrude regardless of whether one is playing local files or streaming.  The lowered noise floor then makes other attempts to lower the noise floor more obvious, so we hear greater benefits from a really good reference clock, better clock cables, better DC cables, etc.  And it doesn’t matter whether we are playing music from the local drive or streaming as it’s just more about keeping noise from coming in.  

Hello Kenny

 

I will investigate this have one of two ether regns in stockpile of audio.

 

Having attatced these devices before (I must admit in the circumstances I was using them with, the FBA didn't alter)

 

You would really thing all there streamer manfacturers would really supply a remote for back up, but hey what do I know 🤣

 

Noise removal is our specialty with far quieter circuits than audio as well, I have four other RJ45 cleaning and reclocking devices and six Ref10 SE-120 plus we can improve then even further but a respectable amount I even use a significantly reworked SE-120 to slave my lab instruments.

 

Its not far off a Rohde & Schwarz FSW signal analyser ssb noise when reworked, in the image you can see it slaves the Lecroy Wave pro scope, currently an FSVR13Ghz signal analyser and a Keithley 7500 dnm

 

 

[Superdad]

This one popped up in a daily AliExpress promo email I just received:

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804282600991.html?ug_edm_item_id=3256804282600991&pdp_npi=3%40dis!USD!%249.98!%245.59!!!!!%40214125b316884871709097257d74b6!12000033976075945!edm!!&edm_click_module=alg_product_1_8235702680&creative_img_ind=1&edm_log_data=edm-item-list-one-column.store-product-log-link&tracelog=rowan&rowan_id1=aeug_edm_23867_1_en_US_2023-07-04&rowan_msg_id=cresCOWS_23867_%244fd28b391cbb476ba2fde93e53e3a95d&ck=in_edm_other&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

 

Wow, $5.98 for a complete board with OCXO—though the page says $10 with a 90% discount, bringing it to just $0.98!

Should I ask for an individual phase-noise plot? 

This might work well in the sound system I was going to build for the $600 electric sports car that is also on AliExpress. 

[ZeusOdin]

On 7/3/2023 at 3:52 AM, Clockmeister said:

Greetings my Nordic mythillogical appreciator,

 

May I suggest this would be a more suitable cable for your device and available your side of the pond

 

https://fieldcomponents.com/t-flex-405-cable-assemblies.html

 

 

 

I run the gamut from mythlogical to mythillogical. It makes listening to music quite heaven-like (either Valhalla or Olympus is fine). Call it a childhood with an obsession with Greek and Norse mythologies.

 

Obviously, I purchased the 405s. Thanks for the copious amounts of empirical observations. Invaluable in settings such as these. 

[ClothEars]

On 7/4/2023 at 6:08 AM, kennyb123 said:

If your system is connected to a network, the network can have an influence on sound quality, even if you don’t stream.  See my above post.  I mostly play music off the internal drive of an Antipodes K50.  The ER helps even with local playback.  

I can confirm this observation which has changed my perception on what matters in getting the best sound.

 

I use an attached 4Tb hard drive as my library directly attached via USB to a SOtM SMS-200 Ultra Neo.  The SMS-200 is connected to the home network via ethernet.  I had always assumed that the network connection had no effect on the sound as all the file data comes from the HDD and the network connection was simply there to provide control access to MPD on the SMS-200. 

 

Through another thread I was prompted to detach the ethernet cable whilst a playlist was running and I got the shock of my life.  The sound was substantially improved in every regard.  This was a very unsettling discovery as it meant that even though the network connection was not in the file signal path it was certainly affecting the quality of the sound.  Oh, how I wish this was not the case.

 

So now I'm travelling down the rabbit hole of minimising the effect of the network on my system and, I now understand why some members have gone to considerable effort to address this element of their systems. 

[kennyb123]

1 hour ago, ClothEars said:

Through another thread I was prompted to detach the ethernet cable whilst a playlist was running and I got the shock of my life.  The sound was substantially improved in every regard.  This was a very unsettling discovery as it meant that even though the network connection was not in the file signal path it was certainly affecting the quality of the sound.  Oh, how I wish this was not the case.

Good for you that you took up the challenge and tried this yourself.  While it can be unsettling for sure, it can also serve as a tool to let one know how well they are progressing at minimizing the harm.

[Dandou]

I confirm that the network does degrade local playback. 

In GentooPlayer there's a feature that allows to launch the playback of local files on the streamer, and to disconnect it from the LAN when it plays them. 

The sound quality is improved indeed, but it's impossible to control the streamer until the playback of the selected files is finished, because it's not connected to the LAN anymore. So, there's no way to hit pause or stop. 

[Mihaylov]

On 7/4/2023 at 10:37 PM, Superdad said:

Should I ask for an individual phase-noise plot? 

I believe that the individual phase noise should not be higher than that stated in the datasheet for this OCXO. (By the way, I made an external clock for the ER based on this OCXO so that my friend liked this version more than the inner clock of the ER 😉).

 

 

ocxo-cti-osc5a2b02-datasheet.pdf

[Mihaylov]

19 hours ago, ClothEars said:

Through another thread I was prompted to detach the ethernet cable whilst a playlist was running and I got the shock of my life.

What brand of cable do you use? Perhaps this is a shielded cable and the shield is connected to the connector housing at both ends of the cable, and this is wrong. The shield should connect to the connector housing from only one end of the cable, because noise from the local network can be transmitted through the screen.

[ClothEars]

3 hours ago, Mihaylov said:

What brand of cable do you use? Perhaps this is a shielded cable and the shield is connected to the connector housing at both ends of the cable, and this is wrong. The shield should connect to the connector housing from only one end of the cable, because noise from the local network can be transmitted through the screen.

I now use a Curious Cable Ethernet for the final connection to the network. There is no shield connected to the connector housing.  Once I heard the system without the network connected I had a reference sound that I set about trying to get as close to as possible but still connected to the network.  As @Dandou has pointed out, without the network connection you cannot control the MPD playback which is impractical for a listening session.  So down the rabbit hole I went and this is my network signal path now, which gets me to about 90% of my reference sound (ie. no network connection).

Frtizbox 7490 modem/router (with linear power supply) -> Cat6 ethernet cable -> Netgear GS105E switch (with linear power supply) -> Curious Ethernet Cable -> SOtm SMS-200 Ultra Neo (with SOtM sCLK OCX10 clock) and USB attached 4Tb HDD library.

To try and get that last 10% I'm waiting to see the new EtherRegen offering and hopefully I'll be able to use the SOtM clock with it.

 

[Clockmeister]

Well chaps I took up the Pepsi challenge and have looking into the reclocking / filter on the ethernet line in even when zero streaming and using an I-pad and Andriod pad to control the Aurender. These observations have been made over the last few days at various times. First up I am prepared to be laughed at this, the I-pad didn't deliver the same SQ as the Samsung pad, was I dreaming? Quite possibly, although at least four members of staff and and two clients were allowed to check this out in their own time.

 

Now the Aurender you can operate from the front panel without any wifi control and you can remove the ethernet RJ45 plug and it still plays. Does it sound the same? oddly enough there is a difference nothing earth shattering, but a repeatable small improvement in depth and noise floor.

 

So, I did try the ether reg on its own no clock stock psu and again it made a small but repeatable difference, I added my enhanced SE-120 Mutec and a premium clock cable & ultra-low lps and yes then a nice improvement in punch and presence occurred. However as one of the chaps pointed out earlier in this thread, that is a lot out lay for 5-7% improvement for most people.

 

Anyway I tried another idea, this time I grounded the RJ45 port and went back to using the front panel, now that was a larger increase than the previous clock/lps/regen so I have to say gents yes you are correct. Thank you have given me another area to dig into to.

 

So I have one of these test rigs to fully investigate all T/Base protocols up tp T/base 1000; Tx<>Rx, in dual differential mode as well plus other individual aspects of the signal transmissions.

 

This will require a filter/signal conditioner circuit with dedicated ground to remove this particular issue.

 

A little busy for the next days, but I have started on a solution for this, the 3D circuit board miller is going to a be a little busy in the few weeks I feel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[feelingears]

1 hour ago, Clockmeister said:

and yes then a nice improvement in punch and presence occurred. However as one of the chaps pointed out earlier in this thread, that is a lot out lay for 5-7% improvement for most people

 

Apologies for interjecting, but I am excited to read all of your impressions and observe these experiments because it seems to me there is some "open" inquiry going on here and thus experimentation and testing accompanied by a, let's say, a willingness to explore with the idea that there is something here that we don't understand... I think this is where "science" begins? 😉

 

And I'm not saying that to be snarky or backhanded because what excites me is that I am the consumer interested in that extra 5% or 8% or 13%. Here's why: To even say there is a percentage gain suggests a predictable, incremental improvement of what is already there. But because I've experienced the following more than once, I would suggest that for some in this hobby, there are step functions where before, sure you got 95%, but that extra "percentage" gain actually takes you up a whole level that wasn't there before. Sometimes it's single thing like more tonal or timbral purity, sometimes it's the combination of things that rings much more emotionally true, but it's definitely not more of the 90+% same! And sadly yeah, sometimes that "piece of wire" step up comes with a four-figure step down in the bank account. 😭 

 

And having said that, I am not the target market for $4K digital clock cables. I do however want to know where best to put my money, and these impressions reinforce the idea that "everything counts" and that sometimes a system component is also "just" a very expensive piece of wire.

 

The above isn't meant to be a rant, rather an encouragement to continue on and expand our understanding, and perhaps take our sound up a step or two! 

 

 

[Clockmeister]

12 minutes ago, feelingears said:

 

Apologies for interjecting, but I am excited to read all of your impressions and observe these experiments because it seems to me there is some "open" inquiry going on here and thus experimentation and testing accompanied by a, let's say, a willingness to explore with the idea that there is something here that we don't understand... I think this is where "science" begins? 😉

 

And I'm not saying that to be snarky or backhanded because what excites me is that I am the consumer interested in that extra 5% or 8% or 13%. Here's why: To even say there is a percentage gain suggests a predictable, incremental improvement of what is already there. But because I've experienced the following more than once, I would suggest that for some in this hobby, there are step functions where before, sure you got 95%, but that extra "percentage" gain actually takes you up a whole level that wasn't there before. Sometimes it's single thing like more tonal or timbral purity, sometimes it's the combination of things that rings much more emotionally true, but it's definitely not more of the 90+% same! And sadly yeah, sometimes that "piece of wire" step up comes with a four-figure step down in the bank account. 😭 

 

And having said that, I am not the target market for $4K digital clock cables. I do however want to know where best to put my money, and these impressions reinforce the idea that "everything counts" and that sometimes a system component is also "just" a very expensive piece of wire.

 

The above isn't meant to be a rant, rather an encouragement to continue on and expand our understanding, and perhaps take our sound up a step or two! 

 

 

 

 

Hello FG

 

Totally understand your thoughts perfectly

 

I will clarify the 5-7% for you as it will put this into perspective in relation to my personal evaluation system is somewhat different from a great many system's its has been designed to show ANY differenices across a wide spectrum of variables.

 

To obtain that 5-7% from this single aspect of ethernet noise in raw terms was in a $ value around 12K, now we have clients that would bat an eyelid at this outlay. For others it's a system cost.

 

So the sound quality point of that system is significant to raise the bar that much more is a good figure of merit, HOWEVER it is an accumulative effect in that you will require, mains conditioning/grounding/room treatment/quality LPS's and cables.

 

I did take the spare N20 into one of the smaller system which are well set up, although only have moderate mains conditioning and good cables in a well set up room, the resultant difference wasn't nearly as marked. With the RJ45 grounding cable attached it produced a better result. Very system dependant imho.

 

One does have to keep a perspective on all of these steps forward, how and why each one happens and what results are transposed into the finial SQ.

 

Here is  a bit of fun for you, for my sins I am a self-confessed digital whore & test equipment Fetishest.

 

My personal dac collection number over 100 now including some highly desirable audiophile delights plus some real howlers. Yet I use dac's between 28 and 16 years old simply because the make music correctly and place you firmly inside the recording environment. A lot of the new high-end bling infested are just merely polish hifi with zero grain and very little involvement. However, audio is very personal and what one man really enjoys the other is not so fussed.

 

Here I was investigating finding some spurious RF emissions on an oldie b ut goodie dac, the worst starting point when using the dedicated app for 'oddball' emissions was -68dBc a solid 15dBc below the Cisper 14 standards. However, a few investigative hours with the right equipment can yield some very positive results.

 

However you need to apply this philosophy right across all of the audio system imho