Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[R1200CL]

I’m using this https://cybershaft.shop/products/cyb-ds01 . 50 ohm from my clock to EtherRegen and Singxer SU-2. Sine. Works great. 
 

Of cause there is a chance to greate ground loops. 
 

A T-BNC as suggested by @realfx may be problematic. I think this has been explained before. 
 

 

[realfx]

17 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

I’m using this https://cybershaft.shop/products/cyb-ds01 . 50 ohm from my clock to EtherRegen and Singxer SU-2. Sine. Works great. 
 

Of cause there is a chance to greate ground loops. 
 

A T-BNC as suggested by @realfx may be problematic. I think this has been explained before. 
 

 

In the case I was talking about the T-BNC is not used to split the signal but to add a terminating load to the RFI loop when the internal 75ohm input terminating load of the Mutec is disabled.

[JohnSwenson]

21 hours ago, realfx said:

@JohnSwenson Do you think using this Cybershaft 50ohm matching adapter https://cybershaft.shop/products/50-ohm-matching-adapter to connect a 10Mhz square wave 50ohm clock signal with a high quality (Huber+Suhner) 50ohm cable to the 75ohm input of a Mutec MC3+ USB will be ok? Or will the square wave signal be truncated?

The Mutec has the possibility to leave the clock input without the internal 75ohm load so it´s possible to use a T-BNC with a terminating 50ohm load plugged to it but the Mutec input female BNC will still be 75ohm so, which do you think would be the right way to connect the 10Mhz square wave 50ohm signal to the Mutec? With the Cybershaft 50ohm matching adapter or with a T-BNC with a 50ohm terminating load in the Mutec clock input while setting the clock input load of the Mutec to "no load"?

 

Thanks!

Your second approach would be the ideal method, just make sure the T-BNC is a 50 ohm model (almost all are). That will properly terminate the 50 ohm clock and cable while a "no load input" is tapping into the signal without changing it. A good way to do this. If it was a really fast signal (GHz range) this would not work, but for a 10MHz signal it is a good method.

 

John S.

[realfx]

 

6 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Your second approach would be the ideal method, just make sure the T-BNC is a 50 ohm model (almost all are). That will properly terminate the 50 ohm clock and cable while a "no load input" is tapping into the signal without changing it. A good way to do this. If it was a really fast signal (GHz range) this would not work, but for a 10MHz signal it is a good method.

 

John S.

Much helpful. Thanks!🍻

[Clockmeister]

You chaps may wish to see how quality phase noise measurments are made in real time Holzworth have released this informative video.

 

Phase noise measurements

 

We have one of these Holzworth, a Keysight UXA with PN application including the cross correlation method which can take a wee while lol Also a new AAronia V6 special 3Thz sweep speed and upto 2Ghz of real time bandwidth and 122Million FFT's its pretty special.

 

 

[kiwibirch]

Exciting times, Just placed my order for EtherRegen. I have the OCK-2 clock driving a SOTM streamer and AudioGD DHE DDC.

While the OCK-2 does provide an substantial increase in sound quality it's sold me on the value of external clocks

So i'm looking to replace the OCK-2 with the new Mutec Ref 10 nano.

 

Do any US dealers have stock of the Nano yet?

[richard_crl032]

No doubt on built quality, flexibility and now nice price of newly available Mutec Nano but glad my Afterdark double emperor is still has an edge and coming 3 yrs of usage 😃

 

 

 

[JoseLuis72]

Finally I also bought an Afterdark Emperor Double Crown.

I'm in the process of burning the unit.💪

With mesurements:

-117 1Mhz

-143 10Mhz

 

Very Happy 😀

[kiwibirch]

The Afterdark Emperor Double is in a totally differrent price category than the Mutec Nano isn't it?

[russellbobby]

3501 for the AD

1799 for the Mutec. ( This is what I am gathering as I have not actually seen a unit for retail)

[kiwibirch]

Makes you wonder if the price delta between these two clocks is worth the extra. I guess no one will know unless they can test both units in the same system. The AD is single output as well vs 4 outs for the Nano..

[JoseLuis72]

In my opinion it is worth taking vertical steps.

I think it's worth waiting and buying a superior watch than spending 2000 on a Mutec Nano. But honestly, I haven't tried it. I decided to buy the Double Crown because I was able to try a friend's at home and on my system. This way there is no error in the purchase, and I am not disappointed

[Superdad]

18 hours ago, kiwibirch said:

Exciting times, Just placed my order for EtherRegen.

Thank you for your order!  Shipped out this morning. (It cost a lot more than we charged to ship via FedEx to you in New Zealand, but no worries. Perhaps you are up in one of those gorgeous remote corners of the island. Who am I kidding: From what I have seen, ALL of New Zealand is spectaclar.  My wife and I intend to visit some day.)

 

Hope you enjoy your EtherREGEN--just as the few thousand before you are. Do let us know if you have any installation/usage questions. We are always here to assist.

--Alex C.

[kiwibirch]

15 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Thank you for your order!  Shipped out this morning. (It cost a lot more than we charged to ship via FedEx to you in New Zealand, but no worries. Perhaps you are up in one of those gorgeous remote corners of the island. Who am I kidding: From what I have seen, ALL of New Zealand is spectaclar.  My wife and I intend to visit some day.)

 

Hope you enjoy your EtherREGEN--just as the few thousand before you are. Do let us know if you have any installation/usage questions. We are always here to assist.

--Alex C.

Thanks So much Alex! and for covering the extra postage fees !! ... looking forward to checking this out for sure.

[kiwibirch]

5 hours ago, JoseLuis72 said:

In my opinion it is worth taking vertical steps.

I think it's worth waiting and buying a superior watch than spending 2000 on a Mutec Nano. But honestly, I haven't tried it. I decided to buy the Double Crown because I was able to try a friend's at home and on my system. This way there is no error in the purchase, and I am not disappointed

What are you clocking with it? the Ether Regen?

[kiwibirch]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

Thank you for your order!  Shipped out this morning. (It cost a lot more than we charged to ship via FedEx to you in New Zealand, but no worries. Perhaps you are up in one of those gorgeous remote corners of the island. Who am I kidding: From what I have seen, ALL of New Zealand is spectaclar.  My wife and I intend to visit some day.)

 

Hope you enjoy your EtherREGEN--just as the few thousand before you are. Do let us know if you have any installation/usage questions. We are always here to assist.

--Alex C.

I'm just using Generic cat-5 ethernet. What would you recommend for Ethernet cable ? looking for value for money options :)

[russellbobby]

Supra makes great bang for buck cables. Bit better than generic but priced way below esoteric. 

[kiwibirch]

5 hours ago, russellbobby said:

Supra makes great bang for buck cables. Bit better than generic but priced way below esoteric. 

Yep, i use their cables extensively in my system. Will grab one.

[Schafheide]

Given that I am very satisfied with my EtherRegen Gen 1 - In order to, perhaps, further improve the SQ, what is the general consensus regarding the best "bang for buck" that I should consider purchasing? TIA

[Superdad]

48 minutes ago, Schafheide said:

Given that I am very satisfied with my EtherRegen Gen 1 - In order to, perhaps, further improve the SQ, what is the general consensus regarding the best "bang for buck" that I should consider purchasing? TIA

Assuming you are asking for a recommendation for an external reference clock—in the sub-$1,000 range.

We strongly believe that clocks should be supplied with individual phase-noise plots for verified performance.  Our tests have shown that performance at 10Hz offset is even more important than at the difficult 1Hz range.  
At about -125dBc/Hz @10Hz is where audible gains over the EtherREGEN’s internal clock begin.

 

Both Cybershaft (Japan) and AfterDark (Hong Kong) clock boxes are supplied with individual phase-noise plots.

 

Cybershaft recently opened a web shop for world-friendly direct ordering, and they have added some fine performing models at very reasonable pricing. Look to their Palladium series and you will see that all the bottom models offer -130dBc/Hz (@10Hz) performance. $760~$950 range. And they all contain excellent Linear Tech LT3045 voltage regulators for final local regulation (you still need a decent external linear supply in the 13.5~16V range.

https://cybershaft.shop/products/palladium-series-ultra-precision-ocxo-10mhz-master-clock?variant=38021368152239

 

Look also to the AfterDark Project ClayX Giesmann Queen level at $759:

https://www.adark.co/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo/products/afterdark-project-clayx-giesemann-ocxo-10mhz-reference-master-clock-audiophilestyle-edition?variant=32208685400182
(For various validated reasons we advise that AfterDark clocks be ordered directly from them in Hong Kong—and not from their USA dealer.)

 

By the way: Despite my recent excitement about the newly released Mutec REF10 Nano, it looks like it will carry a price of $2,499 in the USA, not around $1,800 as previously thought.  It will still be an exceptional performer—and about the only square wave clock we can recommend (hard for most to get square wave right)—but it will still be a bit more and likely hard to obtain for a while as I think they have a big back order.

[R1200CL]

Anyone tried this one ?

https://www.beatechnik.com/lhy-audio-ock-1

 

I'm skeptical since no phase noise numbers given. 
 

Nice price. 

[panhead]

18 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Anyone tried this one ?

https://www.beatechnik.com/lhy-audio-ock-1

 

I'm skeptical since no phase noise numbers given. 
 

Nice price. 

Actually the price is much higher than ali.    I have the version 2 and LOVE it.    Good luck!

[Exocer]

On 12/14/2022 at 8:03 PM, Superdad said:

So this afternoon I've been listening to the LHY OCK-1 that @Exocer has loaned us. Running the sine wave output to my EtherREGEN using the same semi-rigid Cybershaft cable as I use with the Cybershaft GOLD clock (model UPOCXO-GL-01; gifted to us by AfterDark and Mr. Hasegawa of Cybershaft; the plot shipped with the Cybershaft shows -108dBc/Hz at 1Hz and -136dBc/Hz at 10Hz).

 

Compared to the Cybershaft the LHY OCK-1 is very busy; a lot of musical elements normally separated with micro-silence are piled on each other. Hard to describe yet quite repeatable with different tracks and in swapping back and forth. And the sound is a bit "cotton ball" on voices and instruments that normally ring clear.

The clock came to me VERY cold from its cross county trip, so I had it plugged in and powered on for about 6 days (been busy with other things).

 

I am using the sine wave output because I do not have a proper square-wave cable on hand (the considerations for a clock cable are VERY different for sine versus square--something that most people overlook; see our paper on the topic here: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/62477-john-swenson-tutoring-paper-considerations-regarding-usage-of-external-reference-clocks-etherregen-and-other-sine-vs-square-impedance-cables—and-a-money-saving-surprise-at-the-end/

 

Assuming the phase-noise of the Cybershaft and LHY clock are rather close, I suspect that much of the difference I am hearing is power supply related.  I've been using a JS-2 (dedicated unit, nothing else on other output rail, customized to with a 15V setting for the clock), whereas the OCK-1 has a built-in LPS of unknown performance.

 

Sure can't beat the price of the OCK-1 though.  

I'm going to do one more comparison--the OCK-1 versus just the EtherREGEN's good internal clock that is just 3mm from its synth--and them I'll ship it up to @JohnSwensonfor him to measure on his highly resolving Jackson Labs PhaseStation.

 

 

On 1/13/2023 at 4:50 PM, Clockmeister said:

Currently have one of these devices in for investigation so far its not so good

 

This a is the wave form (square wave output) for 50Ohm as factory set, full Jitter ananlysis and serial decode using T Flex 405 18Ghz lab cabling Lecroy wamred up for Ref 10 SE-120 slaving all lab instruments. The sine wave output is equally truncated. HTB 2uS per division/10GS/s sample rate.

 

 

 

 

On 1/25/2023 at 9:20 PM, Superdad said:

Hi Folks:

 

@JohnSwenson and I are super-busy this week--and I'm planning a surprise announcement for next week--but since he carefully conducted a bunch of 10MHz clock phase-noise tests last week, I figured I ought to post them as the results are interesting.

 

Some notes:

--All tests are done using a Jackson Labs PhaseStation 53100A. Using a cross-correlation method--wherein two clocks other than the device-under-test--are connected, the machine is capable of measurements far below the capability of all 3 attached clocks.  We are talking a floor of -142dBc/Hz @ 1Hz, -175dBc/Hz floor at 5MHz.  The PhaseStation is every bit the equal of the widely respected Symmetricom/Microsemi 5120/25A--because it was designed by the same engineer, John Miles, of original TimePod fame.  In fact, Microsemi discontinued the display-built-in 5120/25A models in 2018 and has since been selling the very same 53100A as produced when John Miles went to Jackson Labs.  Seems that Jackson Labs could not support it, so Microsemi took it over. I think they are up to almost $23K now.

 

--All tests are done with a 1 to 2 day warm-up and a 6 hour run which smooths out the curves to what is really there.

 

--Power supply was an UpTone JS-2.

 

--In the photo of the setup everyone will no doubt notice the LHY OCK-1 on the bench. This was the unit loaned to us by @Exocer, which he purchased directly from LHY's master distributor Vinshine Audio in Singapore.  Despite high hopes, the phase-noise performance of the unit came out far below expectation and manufacturer specification. Since LHY clocks have become popular in recent months--and Vinshine run by Alvin Chee has an excellent reputation--I decided not to publish the test result without first giving Alvin and Jay Ho (Jay's Audio/LHY chief engineer and owner) an opportunity to comment.  I sent a long letter--along with phase-noise plot--to Alvin last week. He wrote a short note back indicating that they are on New Years holiday and will review it with LHY and comment back after their return on the 30th.

============

 

Aside from the above, playing with his PhaseStation recently has inspired him to build a board using some expensive ultra-low-noise, extremely high bandwidth differential amplifier chips he bought a while ago, to allow him to run either HCMOS clocks or Ethernet directly into the 50-Ohm input of the PhaseStation. (It is need because running a CMOS clock directly into 50-Ohm would destroy the clock, and Ethernet loaded by 50-Ohms would not work either.) This set up will allow him to directly measure phase-noise—off both the output of our clock synth(s)--alternately based both on internal Crystek and external 10MHz AND from inline on the RJ45 connection between the EtherREGEN ‘B’ port and a streamer. The latter will be really interesting! 

 

We have never seen anyone else run low-offset phase-noise analysis on Ethernet. Jitter measurements and histograms only look at it over extremely wide frequency range—and boil it down to a single, less than useful jitter number. Yet as we have been trying to explain, it is mostly the low-frequency offset phase-noise that is affecting the whole ground-plane of the PCBs and infecting circuits.

Of course he will do that Ethernet wire probe test both with internal and external clock.  

 

This is all being woven into John's weeks of incredibly productive time in development and test of several of our new products, most importantly EtherREGEN Gen2, but also three others--which for the moment I'll hold back as a surprise.  I don't know when he sleeps, but we are sure excited about where this train is headed. 

(So please excuse if my replies to non-urgent e-mail come a bit slowly for a while.)

 

--Alex C.

 

 

 

First a Morion MV197 square wave OCXO that John bought off eBay a few years ago and put into a small enclosure with a Mini-Circuits low-pass filter to make it a sine wave.

 

 

The sine wave out of a BG7TBL that I bought a year or so ago.

 

 

The AfterDark Project ClayX Giesemann, Prince level that was gifted to us a year ago. It measures exact to the specifications they list.

@R1200CL I think this will help you answer your question. Btw, I thought the Ock-1 sounded really good for the cost (although I have since upgraded to the Ref10).

[russellbobby]

Plus one on the LHY OCK 2 . Just breaking in a Tubulus Concentus 75 Ohm cable with LHY and the EtherRegen. Square wave configuration.

Takes  the Bricasti M3 Dac to another level. No way I could get the improvement for 1 k ( LHY plus Tubulus) by selling the Bricasti and moving up to a nicer Dac.

 

The EtherRegen is quite a device. Allows you to use a clock when your dac does not have the input. Allows for easy integration to fiber along with the ethernet clean up. Quite a value!!

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

Anyone tried this one ?

https://www.beatechnik.com/lhy-audio-ock-1

I'm skeptical since no phase noise numbers given. 

 

As mentioned in my posts that were quoted, we did measure the phase-noise of the LHY OCK-1 (@Exocer's sample that he loaned us) but never published the plot. 

Here it is for the first time. -121dBc/Hz at 10Hz is not going to be a worthwhile improvement over the EtherREGEN's internal clock.  Will still sound different, but not objectively superior. And at 1Hz it was -92dBc/Hz.  

For comparison the AfterDark Queen level ($759, but needs and external PS) comes with an individual plot that will guaranteed at least -103dBc/Hz at 1Hz and -131dBc/Hz at 10Hz.

And as @Clockmeister indicated, the OCK-1 model has a LOT of power supply spurie.