Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread

[Exocer]

3 hours ago, di-fi said:

If you can help me understand: the fix eliminates gapless and Željko said that now buffer will be only one track at a time. So no more complete albums or playlist will be send to buffer, is that right?

Here is the explanation:

 

"The fix tries to prolong the time during which player switches from one song to the next as I expect that DAC does not handle that fast change very well. This is done by preventing automatic loading of the next track into the player during play of the first one. When you switch between songs back and forth it defeats the purpose because then both tracks are downloaded and buffered and change happens much more quickly."

[al2813]

I am running a singxer SU-1 as an innetrface between my Euphony box (JCAT USB card) and the spdif in of my DAC. Before that I had a WAVEIO card delivering the same functionality. In both cases the distortion is appearing very randomly. In fact I was "blaming" my DAC until I tried the CD player which had no such issue. 

 

I will do some more testing this week. The issue is very rare on my side 

[Exocer]

1 hour ago, al2813 said:

I am running a singxer SU-1 as an innetrface between my Euphony box (JCAT USB card) and the spdif in of my DAC. Before that I had a WAVEIO card delivering the same functionality. In both cases the distortion is appearing very randomly. In fact I was "blaming" my DAC until I tried the CD player which had no such issue. 

 

I will do some more testing this week. The issue is very rare on my side 

Thanks for the report al2813. Which DAC did you experience this issue with?

[davide256]

10 hours ago, Exocer said:

Here is the explanation:

 

"The fix tries to prolong the time during which player switches from one song to the next as I expect that DAC does not handle that fast change very well. This is done by preventing automatic loading of the next track into the player during play of the first one. When you switch between songs back and forth it defeats the purpose because then both tracks are downloaded and buffered and change happens much more quickly."

by definition there is no rate change in gapless. This sounds like bad approach. The normal way to handle this is a DAC delay parameter. 50ms delay is common value

and not that noticeable.

[di-fi]

Delete, sorry having problems quoting the right message :-(

[di-fi]

 

del

[di-fi]

del

[di-fi]

13 hours ago, Tokyokyoto said:

I am having same/similar issue since adding an Amanero usb card.  Pretty much same symptoms as others have described.  

I have been using the euphony software installed on a frontend/endpoint configuration since the end of last year.  I reverted back to the original sw version (on the frontend computer only) a few weeks ago without issue into a Lyngdorf dac.  The distortion issue started immediately after the new Amanero was installed.

 

I haven’t brought the issue to Z yet so it remains to be seen where this is going.

Hi Tokyokyoto,

Thanks for sharing. To solve the problem, it would be good to share as much details as possible. 

So you experience strident distortion during the whole track, but you can still hear the music playing (at a higher speed?). This happens when you change between tracks with different bit depths (16/24/32 bits)? When this happens Euphony becomes unresponsive and needs a 'Restart app' command? This happens when playing Euphony endpoint to Amanero usb (as player?).

Do you play with ramroot, do you activate 'buffer before play 100%'  and 'buffer albums to queue'?

Any other specific settings?

Sorry for all the questions, I appreciate.

Paul

[di-fi]

3 hours ago, al2813 said:

I am running a singxer SU-1 as an innetrface between my Euphony box (JCAT USB card) and the spdif in of my DAC. Before that I had a WAVEIO card delivering the same functionality. In both cases the distortion is appearing very randomly. In fact I was "blaming" my DAC until I tried the CD player which had no such issue. 

 

I will do some more testing this week. The issue is very rare on my side 

Hi al2813

Thanks for sharing. To solve the problem, it would be good to share as much details as possible. I repeat the questions from above. One important difference might be that you experienced distortion playing to USB and SPDIF. 

So you experience strident distortion during the whole track, but you can still hear the music playing (at a higher speed?). This happens when you change between tracks with different bit depths (16/24/32 bits)? When this happens Euphony becomes unresponsive and needs a 'Restart app' command? 

Do you play with ramroot, do you activate 'buffer before play 100%'  and 'buffer albums to queue'?

Any other specific settings?Sorry for all the questions, take your time testing,  I appreciate.

Paul

[di-fi]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

by definition there is no rate change in gapless. This sounds like bad approach. The normal way to handle this is a DAC delay parameter. 50ms delay is common value

and not that noticeable.

Both Exocer and me changed dac delay through the Euphony menu until 1000 ms. That did not change. 

[davide256]

55 minutes ago, di-fi said:

Both Exocer and me changed dac delay through the Euphony menu until 1000 ms. That did not change. 

I don't believe DAC delay is working properly with Euphony. I just did this experiment, put 4 tracks of different rate/bit depth in queue,

set DAC delay to 5000 msec and observed. What I saw

 

1. Song lengths were increased by 5 seconds, with 5 seconds silence at the end of each song

2. rate change occurred after the 5 seconds, exact start of next song

 

my understanding of DAC delay is that the delay/silence is required at beginning of song to avoid disrupting synchronization, doesn't help if

done before the rate change

[di-fi]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

I don't believe DAC delay is working properly with Euphony. I just did this experiment, put 4 tracks of different rate/bit depth in queue,

set DAC delay to 5000 msec and observed. What I saw

 

1. Song lengths were increased by 5 seconds, with 5 seconds silence at the end of each song

2. rate change occurred after the 5 seconds, exact start of next song

 

my understanding of DAC delay is that the delay/silence is required at beginning of song to avoid disrupting synchronization, doesn't help if

done before the rate change

I just put 6 tracks of 2 different bit depths (16 and 24 bits alternating ) in queue. DAC delay 5000 ms. Euphony Stylus plays them without distortion (problem solved?). My DAC delay set to 5000 ms now, is not working (I get 0 ms), maybe due to the fix?

 

This is the fix applied:

quote- Since I think the cause is a very fast change from song to song due to gapless playback I turned it off so the song is buffered only when the previous song finishes. This is the only thing I can do. If it helps, then this is it - there is no way to have both - this fix and gapless playback.- end quote

 

My understanding with this fix as described, besides eliminating distortion,  I loose buffering of the queue , ''buffered only when previous song finishes''. I prefer having gapless and playing from buffer with lowest network activity possible. He have to further test about this. 

 

[davide256]

3 minutes ago, di-fi said:

I just put 6 tracks of 2 different bit depths (16 and 24 bits alternating ) in queue. DAC delay 5000. Euphony Stylus plays them without distortion (problem solved?). My DAC delay set to 5000ms now, is not working (I get 0ms), maybe due to the fix?

 

This is the fix applied:

quote- Since I think the cause is a very fast change from song to song due to gapless playback I turned it off so the song is buffered only when the previous song finishes. This is the only thing I can do. If it helps, then this is it - there is no way to have both - this fix and gapless playback.- end quote

 

My understanding with this fix as described, besides eliminating distortion,  I also loose buffering of whole queue , ''buffered only when previous song finishes''. But in my experiment Euphony Stylus will still buffer to queue (blue icons besides tracks). Which is great of course. I have to test further to confirm the gapless disappeared. 

If a DAC is slow to resynch at rate changes it can go into "mumble mode" if it gets data before resynch has completed. Euphony's implementation of DAC delay

with buffered tracks is broken and should be fixed before anything else is tried... you should see the delay at the start of a song when resynch is occurring.

[di-fi]

29 minutes ago, davide256 said:

If a DAC is slow to resynch at rate changes it can go into "mumble mode" if it gets data before resynch has completed. Euphony's implementation of DAC delay

with buffered tracks is broken and should be fixed before anything else is tried... you should see the delay at the start of a song when resynch is occurring.

Thanks. FYI, Euphony just confirmed: ''DAC delay only has an effect on changes between DSD and non-DSD songs - it is not applied when there is a samplerate or bit-depth change''.

[di-fi]

21 hours ago, Exocer said:

Zejko applied the fix for me earlier but I was again able to replicate the issue immediately. He will likely follow up with me in the next few days as I have shown him how to replicate the issue. Cheers

The fix I had applied seems to work. I can not get distortion.  I do not think I lost buffer function either (maybe I misunderstood that I would loose buffer & loosing gapless). 

[Exocer]

31 minutes ago, di-fi said:

The fix I had applied seems to work. I can not get distortion.  I do not think I lost buffer function either (maybe I misunderstood that I would loose buffer & loosing gapless). 

 

Great to hear. It did not work for me today and Zeljko and I worked together earlier to try various solutions. We even set the track delay to 5 seconds. The delay itself worked but the issue would return as soon as the track began. He is taking this in-house to search for kernel level adjustment. There do not appear to be Unison/Yggdrasil related configurations in the wild just yet.

[di-fi]

1 hour ago, Exocer said:

 

Great to hear. It did not work for me today and Zeljko and I worked together earlier to try various solutions. We even set the track delay to 5 seconds. The delay itself worked but the issue would return as soon as the track began. He is taking this in-house to search for kernel level adjustment. There do not appear to be Unison/Yggdrasil related configurations in the wild just yet.

That's not so great. Do you mean you (both) are convinced it is a specific configuration needed for Unison?

[Exocer]

2 minutes ago, di-fi said:

That's not so great. Do you mean you (both) are convinced it is a specific configuration needed for Unison?

Correct.

 

Did you say your solution worked? What did you change?

 

Thanks

[di-fi]

45 minutes ago, Exocer said:

Correct.

 

Did you say your solution worked? What did you change?

 

Thanks

Yes it works. Željko worked on it yesterday. He explained: 

''Since I think the cause is a very fast change from song to song due to gapless playback I turned it off so the song is buffered only when the previous song finishes. This is the only thing I can do. If it helps, then this is it - there is no way to have both - this fix and gapless playback.''

 

I do not know exactly what Zeljko changed in my OS, or what the consequences are. I do know I don't want to compromise on gapless. That's not acceptable.  Buffering seems to work as before, I can even disconnect Ethernet and let the queue play. So for now I (and my family) will enjoy a 'no-distortion' period (time will tell) but I will have to revert to the original Euphony OS with gapless. We know at least there are more users with this problem with other sound cards than Unison so hopefully we can pin it down soon.

[al2813]

9 hours ago, Exocer said:

Thanks for the report al2813. Which DAC did you experience this issue with?

it’s a TDA1541. I have also a PCM1794 DAC (both are DIY but very professionally built) which seems not to have the issue although again I need to do more rigorous testing and add my RPI source to the mix. Again as it appeared very little I did not investigate any further. Only reading the thread today made me think there could be a link. 

[al2813]

8 hours ago, di-fi said:

Hi al2813

Thanks for sharing. To solve the problem, it would be good to share as much details as possible. I repeat the questions from above. One important difference might be that you experienced distortion playing to USB and SPDIF. 

So you experience strident distortion during the whole track, but you can still hear the music playing (at a higher speed?). This happens when you change between tracks with different bit depths (16/24/32 bits)? When this happens Euphony becomes unresponsive and needs a 'Restart app' command? 

Do you play with ramroot, do you activate 'buffer before play 100%'  and 'buffer albums to queue'?

Any other specific settings?Sorry for all the questions, take your time testing,  I appreciate.

Paul

Hi Paul, again I need to do real testing. I will try to find some time this weekend and will report back any findings. I have several combos I can test. Euphony is in Ramroot default setting. I did not tweak any further and I am on the 108 version. I run Roon server with Stylus EP. 

[TheAttorney]

On 1/26/2021 at 7:50 PM, RickyV said:

On Monday 18 January I ordered this memory from Mouser, https://nl.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Apacer/D2323240S004/?qs=GBLSl2AkiruWco00G6Jb1Q%3D%3D and collected it on Friday 22 January in Holland. This 8 GB ram stick replaced this type of Apacer ram 4GB 75.B93GJ.G010B which was a good up-tick. This mouser ram is I believe the same ram that Nenon provided a while back. And again this ram is a really good up-tick to previous ram, depth, dynamics and smoothness are all better.

I've now received the exactly the same new "2666 speed" Apacer to replace my Apacer 2400, after several weeks on back-order.

A brief history of my NUC7i7DN RAM journey:

 

1. 2x8GB stock RAM reduced to 1x8GB stock. Incremental but immediately obvious SQ improvement.

2. 1x8GB stock to 1x4GB Apacer 2400. A significantly bigger across-the-board SQ improvement.

3. 1x4GB Apacer 2400 to 1x8GB Apacer 2666. Short answer: Wow! The longer answer.....

 

With step 3, my start point happened to be a cold system and, as a precaution, ramroot disabled. From the first minute, SQ was poor. So I tried again that evening about 10 hours later and with ramroot enabled. What a difference!. The sound was remarkably focused, clear and dynamic. In one word: "Vivid". Also maybe a touch brighter than I'd like? The sound seemed to change over the next couple of days, so that I was starting to forget my original reference.

 

So after 5 days, I swapped back the Apacer 2400 - and the sound immediately became flatter, softer, rather muffled. Difficult to imagine this was a sound I was very happy with a week ago. Now it was dull and boring.

 

Back to the Apacer 2666 and Wow! Again, the one word Vivid comes to mind. Comparing some of my brighter recordings, the 2666 actually handles these better by, for example, better separating the body of a female vocal away from the sibilance and reverb. The 2400 tends to smear all these together. I'm still getting used to the intensity of the new presentation, but remember this is with the latest Euphony release that several others have had a brightness problem with (that overall hadn't bothered me).

 

I can't get over how big a change this has been for me - especially considering it cost less than £100. If anyone is still using stock RAM in their NUC, I consider this to be a mandatory upgrade. As always, YMMV. I have no idea why this was such a big change for me - yet I can't tell the difference whether or not the network is disabled when playing buffered music files.

 

PS. I see that mouser.uk has again got a long back-order lead time, despite having recently received  new shipment.

 

[di-fi]

17 hours ago, di-fi said:

Yes it works. Željko worked on it yesterday. He explained: 

''Since I think the cause is a very fast change from song to song due to gapless playback I turned it off so the song is buffered only when the previous song finishes. This is the only thing I can do. If it helps, then this is it - there is no way to have both - this fix and gapless playback.''

 

I do not know exactly what Zeljko changed in my OS, or what the consequences are. I do know I don't want to compromise on gapless. That's not acceptable.  Buffering seems to work as before, I can even disconnect Ethernet and let the queue play. So for now I (and my family) will enjoy a 'no-distortion' period (time will tell) but I will have to revert to the original Euphony OS with gapless. We know at least there are more users with this problem with other sound cards than Unison so hopefully we can pin it down soon.

24 hours later, the distortion is back, big time. I am playing a playlist. 6 tracks 16/44 and 24/44. Any track change is distortion. Heavy, I can hardly hear the music through. Music seems to play with normal pacing. I made some logs for Euphony and I got this message popping up (see attached).
Yesterday evening I played and tested, all went well except for one 32 bit album, player could not change from 16 or 24 bits to 32 bits w.o. distortion.

The only thing I can think of is, an other recent change. I tried to play on 1 x 4Gb memory stick, I took the other 4Gb out and rebooted a few times and playing went well. Since I always was in ram root I wonder if I maybe ‘lost’ the recent modification. I will also ask Zeljko.

[di-fi]

1 hour ago, di-fi said:

24 hours later, the distortion is back, big time. I am playing a playlist. 6 tracks 16/44 and 24/44. Any track change is distortion. Heavy, I can hardly hear the music through. Music seems to play with normal pacing. I made some logs for Euphony and I got this message popping up (see attached).
Yesterday evening I played and tested, all went well except for one 32 bit album, player could not change from 16 or 24 bits to 32 bits w.o. distortion.

The only thing I can think of is, an other recent change. I tried to play on 1 x 4Gb memory stick, I took the other 4Gb out and rebooted a few times and playing went well. Since I always was in ram root I wonder if I maybe ‘lost’ the recent modification. I will also ask Zeljko.

 

Zeljko replied instantly. He tried, but he can not find the bug. So I will revert to the original Euphony OS with gapless. I keep looking for a solution, I greatly appreciate input from other members who experienced a similar issue.

If you started reading here, the issue that is bugging a few users :Euphony (Stylus) plays with a strident distortion during the whole track, but you can still hear the music playing (sometimes at a higher speed). This happens when you change between tracks with different bit depths (16/24/32 bits)? Euphony becomes unresponsive and needs a 'Restart app' command and will continue playing the track correctly? Please share so we can solve this together. Thanks! Paul

[Exocer]

On 3/18/2021 at 6:47 PM, al2813 said:

it’s a TDA1541. I have also a PCM1794 DAC (both are DIY but very professionally built) which seems not to have the issue although again I need to do more rigorous testing and add my RPI source to the mix. Again as it appeared very little I did not investigate any further. Only reading the thread today made me think there could be a link. 

 

This is a very good data point. Happy to see that it the issue is not limited to Schiit Unison USB DACs. Will let Zeljko know.