Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread

[NanoSword]

if someone don't know about network noise please read Nenon comments he make it very easy to understand 

 

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/post-709536

[di-fi]

40 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

It isn't about the data.  It's not the song cached in RAM.  It's the noise generated by the NIC during playback.  Unless you can validate the NIC is not utilized at all, which is what bringing it down does.  If the NIC is utilized for anything during listening it can generate noise.

 

Great, I got you, I think. I will try to recap.

 

The data in the cache and the data in the buffer are identical. They both include the same good or bad stuff added. Right?

So then playing from either cache or buffer depends the quality of your memory, for example SSD compared to Apacer RAM?

Leaving the Network on will have the same negative effect on each, whether playing from cache or buffer.

 

I really appreciate your explanation Johnseye and NanoSword!

Thanks, 

Paul

 

[Johnseye]

2 hours ago, di-fi said:

Great, I got you, I think. I will try to recap.

 

The data in the cache and the data in the buffer are identical. They both include the same good or bad stuff added. Right?

So then playing from either cache or buffer depends the quality of your memory, for example SSD compared to Apacer RAM?

Leaving the Network on will have the same negative effect on each, whether playing from cache or buffer.

 

I really appreciate your explanation Johnseye and NanoSword!

Thanks, 

Paul

 

 

The data is the data.  Nothing gets added, although some people will tell you ripping on a quiet PC sounds better than on a noisy one. YMMV.

 

There are a lot of variables that can impact SQ.  Noise is one.  Jitter is another.  Latency is another.  Reducing all of those to as little as possible has been a goal of digital music reproduction.

 

I don't know how the quality of RAM impacts SQ but probably by one of the things I mentioned.  I don't know enough about it personally.

 

If the network is on it can create unwanted noise.

[di-fi]

2 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

The data is the data.  Nothing gets added, although some people will tell you ripping on a quiet PC sounds better than on a noisy one. YMMV.

 

There are a lot of variables that can impact SQ.  Noise is one.  Jitter is another.  Latency is another.  Reducing all of those to as little as possible has been a goal of digital music reproduction.

 

I don't know how the quality of RAM impacts SQ but probably by one of the things I mentioned.  I don't know enough about it personally.

 

If the network is on it can create unwanted noise.

Nenon, I was referring to your example that NanoSword quoted (below). In that context I was talking about good or bad things added, I should have said what good or bad the network does. I am as fascinated by this as you are. I am just trying to breakdown in laymen's terms what exactly is happening in my Euphony Stylus in the cache and in the buffer and why and when - as in NanoSwords example - there is a difference. I do not expect that all things (can) to be explained, but I know that you can hear them. Thanks again for your patience.

 

quote: I have been comparing two identical Buffalo switches in the past couple of days - one with the stock clock and one with upgraded clock (PinkFaun ultraOCXO). You can do that same test in my system, and although you disconnect the cable while playing, the buffered tracks using the switch with the upgraded clock sound much better. In other words, even if you disconnect the network cable, whatever good or bad things your network does is already embedded in the buffered track somehow. 

[davide256]

2 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

The data is the data.  Nothing gets added, although some people will tell you ripping on a quiet PC sounds better than on a noisy one. YMMV.

 

There are a lot of variables that can impact SQ.  Noise is one.  Jitter is another.  Latency is another.  Reducing all of those to as little as possible has been a goal of digital music reproduction.

 

I don't know how the quality of RAM impacts SQ but probably by one of the things I mentioned.  I don't know enough about it personally.

 

If the network is on it can create unwanted noise.

I tend to think of this as system electrical noise that causes the USB out electronics to behave less well and which can be transmitted to the downstream USB receiver causing similar “stressed” performance. Or does your experience point in a different direction?

[davide256]

22 minutes ago, di-fi said:

Nenon, I was referring to your example that NanoSword quoted (below). In that context I was talking about good or bad things added, I should have said what good or bad the network does. I am as fascinated by this as you are. I am just trying to breakdown in laymen's terms what exactly is happening in my Euphony Stylus in the cache and in the buffer and why and when - as in NanoSwords example - there is a difference. I do not expect that all things (can) to be explained, but I know that you can hear them. Thanks again for your patience.

 

quote: I have been comparing two identical Buffalo switches in the past couple of days - one with the stock clock and one with upgraded clock (PinkFaun ultraOCXO). You can do that same test in my system, and although you disconnect the cable while playing, the buffered tracks using the switch with the upgraded clock sound much better. In other words, even if you disconnect the network cable, whatever good or bad things your network does is already embedded in the buffered track somehow. 

An annoying phenomena to explain. One would think that the data buffered is just a file with CRC error check, that it should be identical. Need to understand better what’s actually buffered... is the file actually processed, no longer in its original format

[davide256]

Deleted

 

[flkin]

It was around a year ago when John Swenson's white paper on how the EtherRegen network cleaning device came out. http://bit.ly/2vLWvY8

 

The device has been listened to by so many on this site to nearly universal acclaim. It didn't work out for me but I'm in a small minority. My take away from the paper was that if a track was fully buffered into the streaming device and completely isolated from the network so that leakage currents cannot flow, then it would achieve perfect isolation which was the aim of the EtherRegen and the reason why it sounded so good. I've been convinced that it was a good, logical approach to isolation and so when I discovered that Stylus employed a 2-track full buffer for not only local files but streaming files (both Tidal and Qobuz) it was a simple step to disconnect the network cable to achieve what the EtherRegen was doing.

 

Trying to hear the difference with the network cable attached and detached, I concluded that there was no significant audible difference so in my system, it would appear that the full buffering was sufficient for good sound. I found this to be true both for local files and streaming files (after the 2 track was in cache, the network cable is detached).

 

We should all be led by our ears and not only theory so it's interesting that some say the sound is different depending on whether the network was attached during the time of the buffering. This means there may be potential residual effect that somehow is linked with the data. It cannot stay with the binary data logically.

 

It looks like the effect is not accumulative if it is streaming files wouldn't sound good at all having passed through so many junctions from a server somewhere in the world.

 

If accepting that this is a fact, the effect would most likely be localised. So then it might be that the network somehow affects how the cache works - where in the cache the music track is stored, which electrical components are on/off during the playback depending on where the track is on the memory. Perhaps the cache refresh rate is data linked and depends on the network status at the time the data is stored and this information is not updated after the network is disconnected? If this is the case or something similar, it would then be hardware/OS/streaming software dependent and would not be the same for everyone.

 

A subtle electrical effect that is beyond my system sensitivities and hearing. I cannot hear a significant difference when the network is connected or disconnected with a 2-track buffer let alone whether the track was buffered while the network was on or off. 

 

 

[Exocer]

On 3/13/2021 at 9:40 AM, di-fi said:

Hi davide256,

 

Yes , I have the same issue on both native USB ports. Right now am testing the Realtek USB (PEXUSB311AC3). It does not resolve the bit depth problem, but soundwise it's an improvement.

 

I can confirm that the clicks unfortunately are part of the Schiit dac design. So I always hear them, and got used to ignoring them. 

_From Schiit website: It’s totally normal for Bifrost, Gungnir, and Yggdrasil DACs to click (mechanically, from the chassis) during normal operation. That’s the muting relay, doing its job. It clicks whenever the SPDIF datastream is interrupted._

 

To get to what's causing this Euphony distortion when changing 16 bit to 24 bit songs,  I have to pin down on what causes this and at AudiophileStyle I am looking for help with that. Johnseye recently mentioned in this thread a problem ''Stylus either not playing song after song consecutively in the queue or just have a general difficulty playing songs at all?'' and it got solved and it was no hardware issue. It made me realize that maybe there is something in common with my problem?

 

There are so many factors at play that I feel a bit lost. But I can not keep listening to Euphony with random distortion. When listening to music random I have to sometimes run to find a phone or tablet to restart the app (and track will continue to play as usual), or my family members have to run for the volume control. Specially at higher volume this noise is quite awful/unbearable.

 

It seems a test with the old Schiit usb card will give me an answer, but it takes me 1-2 hours to open and close with a multitude of screws so I do not like opening the Yggy myself (but I can) I could also change player software, but I have to install a new one and compromise on Euphony quality. On the USB chain I compared with different cables and/or lengths and with or without IsoRegen.

 

I am open to any solution. It would be great to understand what is going on.

 

Thanks!

Paul

 

 

I have the same exact issue. Was not able to replicate it with Zejko though. I also did not have the issue using GentooPlayer or other audio OSes. Apparently the Yggy with Unison does not jive well with Euphony. For me, the issue has become more and more rare. I stream from Tidal. The issue has also rarely occurred when switching from Local to streamed tracks or vice versa. Typically, I keep my remote nearby and bounce the Stylus service.. the song will typically pickup from where it left off. It doesn't happen with HQPlayer.

 

Onboard USB ports, USB PCI-E card etc don't make a difference either (which was shocking). I really like Euphony. The SQ has had better synergy than other OSes i've tried with this system so I simply put up with it :). Also, I am connecting directly to the DAC and have tried 3 USB cables: Schiit Pyst, Lush^2 and Sablon 2020.

 

Cheers

[di-fi]

1 hour ago, Exocer said:

I have the same exact issue. Was not able to replicate it with Zejko though. I also did not have the issue using GentooPlayer or other audio OSes. Apparently the Yggy with Unison does not jive well with Euphony. For me, the issue has become more and more rare. I stream from Tidal. The issue has also rarely occurred when switching from Local to streamed tracks or vice versa. Typically, I keep my remote nearby and bounce the Stylus service.. the song will typically pickup from where it left off. It doesn't happen with HQ player.

 

Cheers

Interesting Exocer. This confirms I should try another player(s). I don't like to compromise on sound quality without Euphony but at the same time with Euphony Stylus alone I really miss out on my music collection. I do not use Roon and I did not find a way to 'deep' browse my music. So maybe there is a good side to a change. (My system is low power so I can not use HQ player)

[di-fi]

3 hours ago, Exocer said:

Onboard USB ports, USB PCI-E card etc don't make a difference either (which was shocking). I really like Euphony. The SQ has had better synergy than other OSes i've tried with this system so I simply put up with it :). Also, I am connecting directly to the DAC and have tried 3 USB cables: Schiit Pyst, Lush^2 and Sablon 2020.

 

Cheers

Excocer, when you say the Startech USP PCIe card does not make a difference, do you mean not enough difference but nevertheless you got some advantage as described in your audio profile? You still seem to use the Startech? Did you try to power the Startech through the onboard connector? I vaguely remember reading someone isolating (putting tape) over some connectors in the PCIe slot to cut off the MOBO current and only supply power through the USB card onboard connector. With decent cables and lps, this could work?

Did you try other USB cards? Why not a JCAT Femto USB (other than $). I am very interested in improving the ‘USB out’ until I can eliminate the ISO regen and also use one cable between streamer and DAC (considering my setup ideally for maximum half the price of a JCAT).

 

I am using a tiny Curious USB and a short Lush^2. If I can not improve onboard USB I can always install 16Gb Optane on a PCIe adapter....

 

Thanks for sharing.

[Exocer]

1 hour ago, di-fi said:

do you mean not enough difference but nevertheless you got some advantage as described in your audio profile? You still seem to use the Startech? Did you try to power the Startech through the onboard connector?

Kind of off topic for the thread. But with the Sablon 2020, onboard USB sounds a lot better than it used to. It is listenable. Soundstage is a noticably smaller, edges rounder, more noise, probably more jitter too but it is highly listenable...it really depends on my mood. I mostly switch to on onboard USB to experiment but I rarely switch back to it. This is with the DAC-UP2 ports only. The Startech is substantially better overall...(I need to update my system profile with that info. No I do not have the onboard connector installed. It works via motherboard power. I believe it is only supplemental power for this card.

 

As for the Starech not making a difference, I meant the issue we are experiencing will also occur with the Startech card in use. So, the issue seems to be with the Yggy/Euphony compatibility.

 

1 hour ago, di-fi said:

Did you try other USB cards? Why not a JCAT Femto USB (other than $). I am very interested in improving the ‘USB out’ until I can eliminate the ISO regen and also use one cable between streamer and DAC (considering my setup ideally for maximum half the price of a JCAT).

No, this was a temporary solution until I felt the need to upgrade to the JCAT Femto USB XE. Not really super inclined to spend the extra money as this Startech card in stock form sounds really good to me... better than I was expecting and going CPU direct it does offer better performance than the onboard ports. I have no ISO Regen or Phoenix and the system sounds remarkable to me directly to the DAC. Who knows, perhaps an ISO regen, Phoenix, or JCAT have the potential to improve the system further.

 

1 hour ago, di-fi said:

am using a tiny Curious USB and a short Lush^2. If I can not improve onboard USB I can always install 16Gb Optane on a PCIe adapter....

Nice cables. I really enjoyed my Lush^2.

 

I noticed a gain in going CPU direct with Optane. Euphony detected the storage immediately when I moved it from M.2 slot to PCIE adapter. Euphony also had no issues detecting the Xilinx SFN8522 NIC.

 

Cheers

[di-fi]

36 minutes ago, Exocer said:

As for the Starech not making a difference, I meant the issue we are experiencing will also occur with the Startech card in use. So, the issue seems to be with the Yggy/Euphony compatibility.

yes that was my experience also, distortion in both cases. Well, now there are 3 Euphony users who experience(d) this distortion problem. But your situation seems more random. Zjelko did not confirm how many more he needs to reinvestigate. I hope to find a solution soon.

Quote

 

I have no ISO Regen or Phoenix and the system sounds remarkable to me directly to the DAC. Who knows, perhaps an ISO regen, Phoenix, or JCAT have the potential to improve the system further.

 

Ok my short off topic reply: Considering the quality of your setup and both the USB you are currently using, based on my experience, it is more than likely the ISOregen will improve as also will the JCAT. The % of improvement depending on the Sablon USB of course. At first sight it doesn’t look like it but JCAT being less expensive if you compare with ISOregen + lps 1.2 + decent dc cable + second USB cable. I would choose JCAT ;-). Oops forgot Lps for JCAT (needs more power than for example lps 1.2 can deliver I think) if you want to have it all...it never ends.

Thanks for all your feedback!

Paul

[Exocer]

40 minutes ago, di-fi said:

yes that was my experience also, distortion in both cases. Well, now there are 3 Euphony users who experience(d) this distortion problem. But your situation seems more random. Zjelko did not confirm how many more he needs to reinvestigate. I hope to find a solution soon.

Ok my short off topic reply: Considering the quality of your setup and both the USB you are currently using, based on my experience, it is more than likely the ISOregen will improve as also will the JCAT. The % of improvement depending on the Sablon USB of course. At first sight it doesn’t look like it but JCAT being less expensive if you compare with ISOregen + lps 1.2 + decent dc cable + second USB cable. I would choose JCAT ;-). Oops forgot Lps for JCAT (needs more power than for example lps 1.2 can deliver I think) if you want to have it all...it never ends.

Thanks for all your feedback!

Paul

 

Yeah I have built a 2 rail MPAudio ALS-HPULN with two 5V outputs. It is configured to provide up to 3A at 5V. That should be sufficient. Also have DIY Mundorf silver/gold JSSG360'd cable I can use to hook it all up. Some decent AC power cords to choose from as well...just need to let my curiosity get the best of me and try the JCAT one of these days 😄. For now, i'm busy listening to sweet sweet music.

 

Back on topic: I hope so as well, otherwise Euphony is amazing as-is. I've also tried adjust DAC delay to 1000ms. For some odd reason I believe this may have helped reduce the occurrence of the issue. I will be trying 1500ms next:

 

[Exocer]

13 minutes ago, Exocer said:

Back on topic: I hope so as well, otherwise Euphony is amazing as-is. I've also tried adjust DAC delay to 1000ms. For some odd reason I believe this may have helped reduce the occurrence of the issue. I will be trying 1500ms next:

Yeah that didn't work... Nor did the highest delay setting...

[di-fi]

43 minutes ago, Exocer said:

Yeah that didn't work... Nor did the highest delay setting...

Well thanks for trying! For a year I had 0 ms DAC delay as only setting. Since this distortion happened instantly at the change of tracks I have been wondering what information exchange is happening between Euphony and the DAC and how much time needed when it will change to the next track. So I thought I should change this. I just looked it up, I am currently also at 1000ms! I tried lower settings but I did not notice any change. If I could only ‘force’ Euphony or Yggdrasil to either play 16 bit or 24 bit, my problem may be solved because it does not seem to read that it should adapt the bit depth for the following track. For example in WIN 10 & JRiver I can play all tracks at a fixed bit depth to (Topping d10s) office dac.

[Exocer]

1 hour ago, di-fi said:

Well thanks for trying! For a year I had 0 ms DAC delay as only setting. Since this distortion happened instantly at the change of tracks I have been wondering what information exchange is happening between Euphony and the DAC and how much time needed when it will change to the next track. So I thought I should change this. I just looked it up, I am currently also at 1000ms! I tried lower settings but I did not notice any change. If I could only ‘force’ Euphony or Yggdrasil to either play 16 bit or 24 bit, my problem may be solved because it does not seem to read that it should adapt the bit depth for the following track. For example in WIN 10 & JRiver I can play all tracks at a fixed bit depth to (Topping d10s) office dac.

Yeah. I'd like to force bit depth as well although it would be nice to leave everything to play at original settings. Also, the music I do hear when I experience the issue is a bit faster than it should be. Do you hear this as well?

[di-fi]

6 hours ago, Exocer said:

Yeah. I'd like to force bit depth as well although it would be nice to leave everything to play at original settings. Also, the music I do hear when I experience the issue is a bit faster than it should be. Do you hear this as well?

Exactly. Music is playing faster, but not every time. Music becomes instantly strident. I hear heavy distortion in the highs, but you van still hear the track play. Also a few months ago I could press pause, and then ‘play’ and the track played normal. That doesn’t work anymore Euphony becomes totally unresponsive. I have to ‘restart app’ and occasionally do a full reboot to make Euphony responsive. 
If manipulation of bit depth is possible I do not know how it affects the music though. It is a theoretical solution.

[di-fi]

16 minutes ago, di-fi said:

Exactly. Music is playing faster, but not every time. Music becomes instantly strident. I hear heavy distortion in the highs, but you van still hear the track play. Also a few months ago I could press pause, and then ‘play’ and the track played normal. That doesn’t work anymore Euphony becomes totally unresponsive. I have to ‘restart app’ and occasionally do a full reboot to make Euphony responsive. 
If manipulation of bit depth is possible I do not know how it affects the music though. It is a theoretical solution.

Good news. Last night I got a message from Željko: “I may have an idea how to solve your problem but it would require losing gapless playback. Are you interested in trying it?”.
I reported him back that I found two Euphony users on this forum who had experienced the same problem. Of course I will try this. I just toggled my RC. Exocer I will keep you posted in the following days (unfortunately I am not much home to try).

[di-fi]

9 hours ago, di-fi said:

Good news. Last night I got a message from Željko: “I may have an idea how to solve your problem but it would require losing gapless playback. Are you interested in trying it?”.
I reported him back that I found two more Euphony users on this forum who had experienced the same problem. Of course I will try this. But I can not compromise on gapless, only for now. 

 

[di-fi]

12 minutes ago, di-fi said:

 

So now we have two Schiit Yggdrasil users and one Schiit Gungnir (now sold) user who experienced major distortion problems (although random) related to 'wrong' bit depth after change of tracks while using the recent Unison USB card. According to Schiit the Unison card will only work with WIN 10, no earlier version. I do not know how Linux interacts with hardware & drivers, but I wonder if there could be a Schiit Unison driver problem (update for Linux?)  or incompatibility with the Euphony software.

 

I will test the correction Željko applied today and I should re-install the older Schiit USB card for comparison (without today's correction!) and I think I will have enough information to get in touch with Schiit @Jason Stoddard and @Baldr.

 

--to the OP; I think I am still on topic since Euphony is helping troubleshooting (thanks Željko, you are always there!) although it starts pointing more to the Schiit hardware or software compatibility-- 

[Exocer]

5 minutes ago, di-fi said:

So now we have two Schiit Yggdrasil users and one Schiit Gungnir user who experienced major distortion problems (although random) related to 'wrong' bitdepth after change of tracks while using the recent Unison USB card. According to Schiit the Unison card will only work with WIN 10, no earlier version. I do not know how Linux interacts with hardware & drivers, but I wonder if there could be a Schiit Unison driver problem (update for Linux?)  or incompatibility with the Euphony software.

I will test the correction Željko applied today and I should change to the older Schiit USB card for comparison (without todays correction) and I think I have enough information to get in touch with Schiit @Jason Stoddard and @Baldr.

Zejko applied the fix for me earlier but I was again able to replicate the issue immediately. He will likely follow up with me in the next few days as I have shown him how to replicate the issue. Cheers

[di-fi]

30 minutes ago, Exocer said:

Zejko applied the fix for me earlier but I was again able to replicate the issue immediately. He will likely follow up with me in the next few days as I have shown him how to replicate the issue. Cheers

If you can help me understand: the fix eliminates gapless and Željko said that now buffer will be only one track at a time. So no more complete albums or playlist will be send to buffer, is that right?

[di-fi]

On 3/15/2021 at 8:15 PM, di-fi said:

Deleted

 

[Tokyokyoto]

I am having same/similar issue since adding an Amanero usb card.  Pretty much same symptoms as others have described.  

I have been using the euphony software installed on a frontend/endpoint configuration since the end of last year.  I reverted back to the original sw version (on the frontend computer only) a few weeks ago without issue into a Lyngdorf dac.  The distortion issue started immediately after the new Amanero was installed.

 

I haven’t brought the issue to Z yet so it remains to be seen where this is going.