Audiolinux Server configurations, Software, Hardware, and Listening Impressions

[lmitche]

28 minutes ago, Bricki said:

I have now managed to get the isolated CPU cores working with 8gig of RAM with ramroot still working and running roon server. The CPU in my sonicTransporter i5 is the 5200u.

 

Initial impressions are a higher resolution sound with better image focus and textures, more space around the image and less compressed. It also sounds lower noise, smoother and more engaging. There is less bleeding between images and everything sounds cleaner in a natural way not a sterile way.

 

There is also more depth and you are able to better discern each sound to it's location in a seemingly larger sound stage (perhaps it's the same size but just seems like there's more space in there because the sounds aren't bleeding together)

 

I'm very very happy with this improvement 🤓

Bricki,

 

How did you allocate the cores?

[Bricki]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Bricki,

 

How did you allocate the cores?

I selected half...the 5200u is only a dual core

[lmitche]

1 minute ago, Bricki said:

I selected half...the 5200u is only a dual core

Lol, thanks!

[rickca]

Good news for anyone with a 28W Bean Canyon NUC like NUC8i7BEH.  Akasa has announced a fanless case model called Turing.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13943/akasa-turing-passively-cooled-chassis-for-intel-bean-canyon-nuc

 

I'd still be cautious until someone gives this a try.  The 28W NUCs have problems with thermal throttling in the original Intel NUC case.

[rickca]

This post may be of interest to those considering running AL on a powerful server with a traditional mini-ITX or ATX motherboard.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/46748-new-hdplex-200w-lps/?do=findComment&comment=926539

Please keep any questions/discussion over on my thread so we can keep this thread focused on its original scope.  Larry has a great thread going here and I don't want to mess it up.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

Good news for anyone with a 28W Bean Canyon NUC like NUC8i7BEH.  Akasa has announced a fanless case model called Turing.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13943/akasa-turing-passively-cooled-chassis-for-intel-bean-canyon-nuc

 

I'd still be cautious until someone gives this a try.  The 28W NUCs have problems with thermal throttling in the original Intel NUC case.

Very interesting Rick, thanks for sharing!

[Miska]

11 hours ago, rickca said:

Good news for anyone with a 28W Bean Canyon NUC like NUC8i7BEH.  Akasa has announced a fanless case model called Turing.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13943/akasa-turing-passively-cooled-chassis-for-intel-bean-canyon-nuc

 

I'd still be cautious until someone gives this a try.  The 28W NUCs have problems with thermal throttling in the original Intel NUC case.

 

That one is at least quad-core CPU and the Akasa case looks like some decent amount of cooling! Would be interested to hear how that fares compared to regular micro-ATX / mini-ITX with bigger CPU... For example one of my fanless servers is now running i5-7700T on a Streacom case and is hardly getting warm (has cooling capacity up to 65W TDP).

 

[Bricki]

I have the isolated CPU cores working on my NUC7CJYH running roon bridge in ramroot with 4gigs of RAM with similar SQ results to the server.

 

If you haven't tried this already I highly recommend you put it on your to do list. I am very pleased with the results. 🔊😁👍

 

 

[lmitche]

7 hours ago, Bricki said:

I have the isolated CPU cores working on my NUC7CJYH running roon bridge in ramroot with 4gigs of RAM with similar SQ results to the server.

 

If you haven't tried this already I highly recommend you put it on your to do list. I am very pleased with the results. 🔊😁👍

 

 

On my to-do list, thanks Bricki!

[tapatrick]

17 hours ago, Bricki said:

I have the isolated CPU cores working on my NUC7CJYH running roon bridge in ramroot with 4gigs of RAM with similar SQ results to the server.

 

If you haven't tried this already I highly recommend you put it on your to do list. I am very pleased with the results. 🔊😁👍

 

 

Nice @Bricki!  We have the same NUC server - NUC7PJYH and Endpoint - NUC7CJYH. I have the isolated cores (4 total, 2 for audio) running on my server for a week but haven't been able to get the endpoint running with isolated core(s) after a couple of attempts.

 

There are only 2 cores on the endpoint, so I've tried half and one but won't show up or play. Not sure why this is and I've added 4GB ram to make 8 in total. I've gone back to headless/Ramboot 0.5 version on the endpoint which is completly stable. Sound is awesome none the less.

 

Which isolated setting have you got it working on? 

[Bricki]

41 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

Nice @Bricki!  We have the same NUC server - NUC7PJYH and Endpoint - NUC7CJYH. I have the isolated cores (4 total, 2 for audio) running on my server for a week but haven't been able to get the endpoint running with isolated core(s) after a couple of attempts.

 

There are only 2 cores on the endpoint, so I've tried half and one but won't show up or play. Not sure why this is and I've added 4GB ram to make 8 in total. I've gone back to headless/Ramboot 0.5 version on the endpoint which is completly stable. Sound is awesome none the less.

 

Which isolated setting have you got it working on? 

The way I got it working was:

 

1. On start up don't load the file system to RAM.

2. Disable ramroot and reboot.

3. Run the core isolation script and reboot. I selected "half".

4. Start and enable roon bridge.

5. Enable ramroot and reboot.

 

I have headless 0.7 with everything updated and 0.99 menu.

 

I hope this helps 😁

 

[tapatrick]

8 hours ago, Bricki said:

The way I got it working was:

 

1. On start up don't load the file system to RAM.

2. Disable ramroot and reboot.

3. Run the core isolation script and reboot. I selected "half".

4. Start and enable roon bridge.

5. Enable ramroot and reboot.

 

I have headless 0.7 with everything updated and 0.99 menu.

 

I hope this helps 😁

 

Thanks! Yes I did follow those steps - and tried 'half' option. I'll try again when I have some more time.

[Poldi]

Which storage for NUC-server with AL?

 

Hi,

 

I'm relatively new to this forum and have been reading the threads on the NUC with AL as endpoint and as server with great interest as I am using a sms-200 right now and this new approach seems to offer superior sound quality within a reasonable price limit.

 

Forgive me in advance if I'm asking something obvious (I'm not a computer expert) or if I missed something on this thread. So here is my question

 

What kind of storage do you guys use with your AL-NUC-servers?

 

1. internal storage? (wouldn't that be a possible cause of pollution? I mean, that's why the diskless USB-ramboot-option is advised, correct? Or does the diskless-approach only apply for the AL-NUC as an endpoint?)

2. external self-powered storage connected via USB? (Could a mini pc with PCIe-slot and an audiophile PCIe-USB-card give better results than a NUC?)

3. Storage on a NAS?

 

Thanks in advance!

[bobfa]

That is a good question that I do not think is well answered yet.  Storage options are an interested experimental project.

 

For number 1 it is pretty simple to test a couple of configurations.  I have not done that yet. Soon!

For number 2 the test is much more complex.  Pick the motherboard you want to test....  PCIe card. Disk drive, WHEW!

For number 3 there appear to be more folks doing this.  I had one experience 2 years ago that my NAS might have been worse than the internal storage on the server I was using at the time.  

 

The testing of #1 VS  #3 is on my work plan over the next few weeks.  I am not sure how I will conduct it yet.  I have a weird feeling about NAS and networking disk storage with the listening I have done with a modified switch in my network on the Sever —> NAA   vs Server —> Switch —> NAA

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, Poldi said:

Which storage for NUC-server with AL?

 

Hi,

 

I'm relatively new to this forum and have been reading the threads on the NUC with AL as endpoint and as server with great interest as I am using a sms-200 right now and this new approach seems to offer superior sound quality within a reasonable price limit.

 

Forgive me in advance if I'm asking something obvious (I'm not a computer expert) or if I missed something on this thread. So here is my question

 

What kind of storage do you guys use with your AL-NUC-servers?

 

1. internal storage? (wouldn't that be a possible cause of pollution? I mean, that's why the diskless USB-ramboot-option is advised, correct? Or does the diskless-approach only apply for the AL-NUC as an endpoint?)

2. external self-powered storage connected via USB? (Could a mini pc with PCIe-slot and an audiophile PCIe-USB-card give better results than a NUC?)

3. Storage on a NAS?

 

Thanks in advance!

I have a strong preference for option 2 having extensively tested the other options over the years. My findings have been duplicated by at least 5 other regular readers of this thread. To be clear, the solution is to use a 3.5 inch hard disk in an USB 3 enclosure into a USB 3 port.  Over here, the USB 3 enclosure is powered with a 12 volt high quality lps with double regulation.

[Poldi]

@bobfa @lmitche thanks for sharing your experiences!

 

I actually had a similar experience with my sMS-200. It sounded better with a more or less (see below) self-powered external disk attached via USB than with the music coming from my DS116 NAS via Ethernet. More relaxed and there is more weight to the sound.

 

However, I wanted to use a external SSD instead of HDD because I didn't want to have the noise in the living room. Although I found an enclosure for SSD that offers external powering (sorry link is in German):

https://www.amazon.de/ICY-BOX-Externes-Festplatten-Aluminium/dp/B01BHR3VPA

I noticed the device stays on even when the power supply is unplugged due to the fact that the single SSD I put in it uses so little power that the sMS-200 is able to power it via USB. So in the end unfortunately it's not really self-powered. That's why I thought about getting an Aqvox power supply:

http://www.myhifishop.de/Devices/AQVOX-USB-Low-Noise-Power-Supply-5V-1A-USB2-0-USB3-0-A-A-B-B-m::49.html

Unfortunately I would need a USB 3.0 B plug which they don't offer. But perhaps they'd customize it for me. Otherwise I would need an adapter.

 

Of course with a 3,5 external HDD you don't have this problem as it needs an external power supply in order to run.

@lmitche Or is there a different reason why you would prefer a 3,5 external HDD (to a 2,5 SSD)?

And would you advise to use an "audiophile" usb-card for the server? (SOtm, JCAT...)

NUCs don't offer a slot for PCIe-cards, right? Could something like this be an alternative to a NUC then?

https://shop.tx-team.de/Industrial-PC/Box-IPC/Fanless-IL1000::6.html

 

 

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, Poldi said:

@bobfa @lmitche thanks for sharing your experiences!

 

I actually had a similar experience with my sMS-200. It sounded better with a more or less (see below) self-powered external disk attached via USB than with the music coming from my DS116 NAS via Ethernet. More relaxed and there is more weight to the sound.

 

However, I wanted to use a external SSD instead of HDD because I didn't want to have the noise in the living room. Although I found an enclosure for SSD that offers external powering (sorry link is in German):

https://www.amazon.de/ICY-BOX-Externes-Festplatten-Aluminium/dp/B01BHR3VPA

I noticed the device stays on even when the power supply is unplugged due to the fact that the single SSD I put in it uses so little power that the sMS-200 is able to power it via USB. So in the end unfortunately it's not really self-powered. That's why I thought about getting an Aqvox power supply:

http://www.myhifishop.de/Devices/AQVOX-USB-Low-Noise-Power-Supply-5V-1A-USB2-0-USB3-0-A-A-B-B-m::49.html

Unfortunately I would need a USB 3.0 B plug which they don't offer. But perhaps they'd customize it for me. Otherwise I would need an adapter.

 

Of course with a 3,5 external HDD you don't have this problem as it needs an external power supply in order to run.

@lmitche Or is there a different reason why you would prefer a 3,5 external HDD (to a 2,5 SSD)?

And would you advise to use an "audiophile" usb-card for the server? (SOtm, JCAT...)

NUCs don't offer a slot for PCIe-cards, right? Could something like this be an alternative to a NUC then?

https://shop.tx-team.de/Industrial-PC/Box-IPC/Fanless-IL1000::6.html

 

 

Poldi,

 

SSDs and all flash memory devices make an enormous amount of noise that corrupts SQ, so avoid at all costs. 

 

A server doesn't connect to a dac so a usb 3 port is what by you want anyway. I am not aware of a usb 3 audiophile pcie card. Startech has a nice usb 3.2 card that can be powered externally.

 

Lastly the nuc USB 3 ports sound terrific so no need for unnatural connections. 

[frederick184]

3 hours ago, lmitche said:

I have a strong preference for option 2 having extensively tested the other options over the years. My findings have been duplicated by at least 5 other regular readers of this thread. To be clear, the solution is to use a 3.5 inch hard disk in an USB 3 enclosure into a USB 3 port.  Over here, the USB 3 enclosure is powered with a 12 volt high quality lps with double regulation.

Agreed.  I went from using a Synology NAS for my storage to the method described above.  My server and endpoint are separated by wi-fi.  It was one of the biggest differences I've heard in my system, and I don't even have these devices separately powered as yet!  Following @lmitche 's lead, I'm using a Startech USB 3.1 enclosure with WD Black 3.5 HDD.  That connects to a Startech USB 3.1 PCIe card in my server.

 

Colin

[Bricki]

After removing the internal os SSD in my server I was reluctant to add any local storage because I was finding it was just adding more noise... I had a Seagate 2tb portable HDD (not self powered) and I was finding that tidal streaming sounded better when there was no local storage on my server at all....tidal doesn't have a lot of my favorite music so I tried adding some local storage that didn't add any noise to my tidal streaming.... I tried a Samsung 128g USB 3.1 USB stick with very fast io speeds... even just having the stick plugged into my USB port on my server tidal streaming took a backwards step.

 

I am now using a micro SD card (obviously not much storage for an entire library) plugged into a USB 3.0 hub and I find that I can't tell the difference when it is plugged into my server or not. I have tried a tiny micro SD to USB adapter that plugs straight into the USB port but because it wasn't USB 3.0 (only USB 2.0) it sounded duller and flatter than the USB 3.0 hub...so @Superdad is definitely right that USB 3.0 hubs have better signal integrity. It was the same micro SD card

 

Thanks Larry for the suggestion of the self powered USB 3.0 enclosure with the HDD... I will try that in the coming months.

 

@lmitche have you found a difference between 5400rpm HDD and 7200rpm HDD? I am thinking of repurposing an older 5400rpm drive for this experiment so I don't want to hamstring the experiment from the start. Also I have run out of LPS's so I'm going to have to add a smps 😕....hmmm lots to think about and more money to spend 😅

[austinpop]

1 minute ago, Bricki said:

Also I have run out of LPS's 

 

Maybe @Superdad should have bulk pricing on his LPS-1.2s.

 

Cheaper by the dozen?

[lmitche]

5 minutes ago, Bricki said:

After removing the internal os SSD in my server I was reluctant to add any local storage because I was finding it was just adding more noise... I had a Seagate 2tb portable HDD (not self powered) and I was finding that tidal streaming sounded better when there was no local storage on my server at all....tidal doesn't have a lot of my favorite music so I tried adding some local storage that didn't add any noise to my tidal streaming.... I tried a Samsung 128g USB 3.1 USB stick with very fast io speeds... even just having the stick plugged into my USB port on my server tidal streaming took a backwards step.

 

I am now using a micro SD card (obviously not much storage for an entire library) plugged into a USB 3.0 hub and I find that I can't tell the difference when it is plugged into my server or not. I have tried a tiny micro SD to USB adapter that plugs straight into the USB port but because it wasn't USB 3.0 (only USB 2.0) it sounded duller and flatter than the USB 3.0 hub...so @Superdad is definitely right that USB 3.0 hubs have better signal integrity. It was the same micro SD card

 

Thanks Larry for the suggestion of the self powered USB 3.0 enclosure with the HDD... I will try that in the coming months.

 

@lmitche have you found a difference between 5400rpm HDD and 7200rpm HDD? I am thinking of repurposing an older 5400rpm drive for this experiment so I don't want to hamstring the experiment from the start. Also I have run out of LPS's so I'm going to have to add a smps 😕....hmmm lots to think about and more money to spend 😅

I don't think there is an audible difference between 5400 vs. 7200 RPM 3.5 inch drives. Having said that I use a 7200 RPM drive and backup to 5400 RPM drives.

 

2.5 inch HDDs sound terrible.

[Bricki]

31 minutes ago, lmitche said:

 

2.5 inch HDDs sound terrible.

That explains why my portable drive didn't sound too good 😁.

 

Thanks for the info 👍

[Poldi]

13 hours ago, lmitche said:

Poldi,

 

SSDs and all flash memory devices make an enormous amount of noise that corrupts SQ, so avoid at all costs. 

 

A server doesn't connect to a dac so a usb 3 port is what by you want anyway. I am not aware of a usb 3 audiophile pcie card. Startech has a nice usb 3.2 card that can be powered externally.

 

Lastly the nuc USB 3 ports sound terrific so no need for unnatural connections. 

Thanks @lmitche for your suggestions!

 

Boy, then I did it all wrong... ;)

I have actually a WD Red 4 TB in my NAS which I could use. Until now I found it pretty loud but that could be due to the enclosure of the NAS which has some air around it which probably makes it resonate more. And I heard that 5400 drives are said to be even less loud than 7200 drives.

Does the size of the drive's cache have any impact and the sound in your opinion?

 

And aren't these "audiophile" PCIe-cards USB 3.0?

https://jcat.eu/featured/usb-card-femto/

https://sotm-usa.com/products/sotm-tx-usbexp-audiophile-pcie-to-usb-audio-card

 

But as the USB 3.0 ports of the NUCs are sounding great I actually don't have to invest a few hundred bucks more for such a card if I don't have to ;)

 

 

[luisma]

6 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Actually we do, and by the half-dozen: Buy 5 and get the 6th one free! (All in one order; not a retroactive deal.) 

Well it is certainly a deal if you ever plan to use a few more. 

 

BTW what happened to some project of aggregating several LPS 1.2? I remember were serial connected to provide more voltage right? 

[Boomboy]

I changed to a external hdd in a orico encloser with lps and ghent 360 usb . Nice improvement over my usb stick into my raspberry pi nas . 

Just purchased a nuc .. if all goes well I'm trying AL this weekend .. cant wait to give it a go .