EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[Matias]

Would it make sense to use the B side for input, optical for an opticalRendu and the remaining A side Ethernet for other devices nearby? Does this provide low phase noise performance for the optical SFP?

[JohnSwenson]

42 minutes ago, Matias said:

Would it make sense to use the B side for input, optical for an opticalRendu and the remaining A side Ethernet for other devices nearby? Does this provide low phase noise performance for the optical SFP?

The EtherREGEN was designed so it works very well going "backwards", the B side port connected to a switch and the SFP optical connection to a renderer with an optical input such as the opticalRendu. All the isolation works identically in both directions.

 

If you are doing this I would not recommend using any of the A ports unless that path is also part of the audio system, say you have an opticalRendu and a DAC with Ethernet input. The clock isolation ONLY happens across the moat, NOT between any of the A ports (the SFP is part of the A side). Thus clock noise from anything else plugged into the A side can make its way into the SFP port. The only way to prevent that is to not use any of the A RJ45 jacks if you are using the SFP port to connect to an audio endpoint.

 

If you use the B side RJ45 to drive the endpoint it is perfectly fine to use the A ports for connecting other things (computer, NAS, Printer, TV etc). In that configuration any clock noise from the other devices gets blocked going across the moat to the B side port.

 

John S.

[Aidagent]

Without technical knowledge I have tried to find an answer in the question if USB or Ethernet connection is the best way to go SQ wise. I understand that it’s a very complex question with a lot of parameters to consider. Maby Etherregen will be a new parameter in that debate.

 

I have a dac that can do both connections. Lately I have tested some software optimisations that really makes a difference in USB connection. But right or wrong my hope is that Ethernet in the future would be the preferred way to go.

 

I don’t want to take this thread in the wrong direction. Maby someone can point me to a good source in the matter?

[Superdad]

4 minutes ago, Aidagent said:

Without technical knowledge I have tried to find an answer in the question if USB or Ethernet connection is the best way to go SQ wise. I understand that it’s a very complex question with a lot of parameters to consider. Maby Etherregen will be a new parameter in that debate.

 

I have a dac that can do both connections. Lately I have tested some software optimisations that really makes a difference in USB connection. But right or wrong my hope is that Ethernet in the future would be the preferred way to go.

 

You are correct that this a somewhat complicated subject. 

There is no one answer, and certainly the circuit specifics of your DAC and your network connectors will factor in.

But let's say that you happen to own a DAC with both a direct Ethernet input and a USB input.  For both of those, the input boards (even if the circuitry is integrated onto one main board) for each will be converting to an I2S (or DSD) signal to feed the actual D-A portion of your DAC. 

And in both cases there is a lot of the respective protocol processing taking place in order to create that audio I2S signal.  For Ethernet, this can mean anything from a full-on Linux single-board-computer to something more tightly integrated such as the mConnect module from http://conversdigital.com as used in a few recent DACs to provide DLNA and Roon-readiness. In the case of USB>I2S there too there are many variations in implementation.

 

EtherREGEN is designed as state-of-the-art isolation and reclocking for Ethernet.  It will benefit both typical computer/streamer/renderer endpoints as well as DACs which themselves have an Ethernet input.  We will be very interested in user experiences with Ethernet-input DACs, as the EtherREGEN could be the final piece allowing those models to shine. 

 

 

[soares]

I am also quite curious about the results using my OPPO 205. I recently bought an oM and I was quite surprise with the improvements I got when connected to my uR that feeds the 205 USB input. However the SQ delta I got using Ethernet was far less than I was expecting. And this with the  same files. So let’s wait for the eR... cheers Jorge

[PYP]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

We will be very interested in user experiences with Ethernet-input DACs, as the EtherREGEN could be the final piece allowing those models to shine. 

 

That is my setup:  the DAC is a Roon endpoint/DAC/preamp, so the path is in-wall cat 5e to EtherREGEN to DAC.  I'll let you know how that works out (hopefully in early November, if I can click fast enough on October 8).   

[Bones13]

1 hour ago, PYP said:

 

That is my setup:  the DAC is a Roon endpoint/DAC/preamp, so the path is in-wall cat 5e to EtherREGEN to DAC.  I'll let you know how that works out (hopefully in early November, if I can click fast enough on October 8).   

My situation as well, excited to get an etherRegen, I’ll be trying to get in the first wave, but my work makes tight timing difficult. This order window looks to be tight. Fortunately, there is still music to listen to if I end waiting a month.

[EVOLVIST]

2 hours ago, PYP said:

 

That is my setup:  the DAC is a Roon endpoint/DAC/preamp, so the path is in-wall cat 5e to EtherREGEN to DAC.  I'll let you know how that works out (hopefully in early November, if I can click fast enough on October 8).   

 

Yeah, that's good. I'd like to hear your impressions. I'll be sure to give mine. 

 

My Linn KDS/3 isn't a Roon endpoint, so I have to go from a SonicTransporter, into my router, and then into the Linn ]. So, the etherREGEN should sit between my router and my Linn. I guess it's the same difference between going from the wall straight yo your DAC, because if the etherREGEN works like it's supposed to to, it will cure any ills that comes before your DAC/Streamer, yeah?

 

Yeah.

[DelsFan]

Every time I ask about modems and routers I get the same answer:  Anything over the Ethernet is perfect, which modem and/or router, and/or combo unit I purchase won't (CAN'T) affect the sound quality coming out of my ($5000) streamer/DAC.  (And, an LPS for my modem and router shouldn't have any effect on sound quality either...)  And I guess Alex's thoughts about the Cisco switch he has been recommending, until the EtherREGEN is released, is just, what?, idiocy also?

 

People who visit here care so I'll be glad to hear about your experiences.  I just changed internet providers (fiber not available at my house), and I plan on purchasing a plain modem and (if I can find one) a stand-alone router.  From the router (sans Wi-Fi), I plan to go one direction to my (hardwired) desktop, wireless access point, and television (maybe), and the other direction to the EtherREGEN (A-side) and my Streamer (from the B-side). 

Is trying to keep as many things out of the chain between my modem and Streamer sensible/important/imperative, or does it really just not matter. 

Is looking for a "better" quality modem and router just folly? 

In forty years in the high-end audio hobby I've yet to find something that doesn't matter - maybe this is a first?

I think I understand:

An all-in-one modem/router will almost never sound as good as a good modem connected to a good router (which will then send information from TIDAL, to my Streamer).

I can't run my Ethernet cable from my modem directly to the EtherREGEN and on to my Streamer, I must have a router in-between.

Supposedly, powering my modem and router with a LPS rather than wall-warts is beneficial to sound quality???

If I can find a stand-alone router without Wi-Fi built in, I can place a WAP elsewhere, centrally located, in my house.

Other than logistics, if I must have a router before my EtherREGEN, and the router almost always has four outputs, in many cases will there be no reason to have to use the additional A-side outputs provided on the EtherREGEN?

 

For use with Comcast/Charter coax service, does anyone recommend a particular stand-alone modem and stand-alone router?  Or, will the EtherREGEN cover all sins, I should just buy any darn thing, don't worry about it?  I just don't understand why the EtherREGEN will make a difference, an LPS for the router and modem makes a difference, but what modem and router I purchase doesn't make a difference.  I'm sorry I'm old and not network savvy, but I am enthusiastic about this hobby.

 

One last question:

If I buy a separate modem and router, and the signal for my Streamer has to first pass through the router, should keeping the Wi-Fi electronics out of the router be beneficial?  Or, should I just buy a decent modem, buy a (better or best) router with Wi-Fi, and then forget about it?

 

[ericuco]

21 minutes ago, DelsFan said:

Every time I ask about modems and routers I get the same answer:  Anything over the Ethernet is perfect, which modem and/or router, and/or combo unit I purchase won't (CAN'T) affect the sound quality coming out of my ($5000) streamer/DAC.  (And, an LPS for my modem and router shouldn't have any effect on sound quality either...)  And I guess Alex's thoughts about the Cisco switch he has been recommending, until the EtherREGEN is released, is just, what?, idiocy also?

 

People who visit here care so I'll be glad to hear about your experiences.  I just changed internet providers (fiber not available at my house), and I plan on purchasing a plain modem and (if I can find one) a stand-alone router.  From the router (sans Wi-Fi), I plan to go one direction to my (hardwired) desktop, wireless access point, and television (maybe), and the other direction to the EtherREGEN (A-side) and my Streamer (from the B-side). 

Is trying to keep as many things out of the chain between my modem and Streamer sensible/important/imperative, or does it really just not matter. 

Is looking for a "better" quality modem and router just folly? 

In forty years in the high-end audio hobby I've yet to find something that doesn't matter - maybe this is a first?

I think I understand:

An all-in-one modem/router will almost never sound as good as a good modem connected to a good router (which will then send information from TIDAL, to my Streamer).

I can't run my Ethernet cable from my modem directly to the EtherREGEN and on to my Streamer, I must have a router in-between.

Supposedly, powering my modem and router with a LPS rather than wall-warts is beneficial to sound quality???

If I can find a stand-alone router without Wi-Fi built in, I can place a WAP elsewhere, centrally located, in my house.

Other than logistics, if I must have a router before my EtherREGEN, and the router almost always has four outputs, in many cases will there be no reason to have to use the additional A-side outputs provided on the EtherREGEN?

 

For use with Comcast/Charter coax service, does anyone recommend a particular stand-alone modem and stand-alone router?  Or, will the EtherREGEN cover all sins, I should just buy any darn thing, don't worry about it?  I just don't understand why the EtherREGEN will make a difference, an LPS for the router and modem makes a difference, but what modem and router I purchase doesn't make a difference.  I'm sorry I'm old and not network savvy, but I am enthusiastic about this hobby.

 

One last question:

If I buy a separate modem and router, and the signal for my Streamer has to first pass through the router, should keeping the Wi-Fi electronics out of the router be beneficial?  Or, should I just buy a decent modem, buy a (better or best) router with Wi-Fi, and then forget about it?

 

For a stand-alone modem, I have previously used this modem when I had Comcast Xfinity ISP service:

 

https://www.amazon.com/ARRIS-SURFboard-SB6141-DOCSIS-Cable/dp/B00AJHDZSI

 

You can then connect it to the router (and WiFi hub) of your choice. In normal home networks, it is required that you have a router which assigns local IP addresses to your devices. I have been using Google WiFi mesh units as router and WiFi hub and remote access points but there are tons of similar devices from Ubiquiti, TP Links, etc.

 

I can’t imagine anything upstream of the EtherREGEN making much difference. For streaming service think about all of the network equipment the data flows through before arriving at your house.

[rickca]

Are there snakes and alligators in the EtherREGEN moat? 

 

[Blake]

9 minutes ago, rickca said:

Are there snakes and alligators in the EtherREGEN moat? 

 

 

I would humbly submit that we declare a moratorium on all technical and product delivery questions until after the October 8th launch date, in order to allow poor Alex and John the time to focus on this project and get some sleep as well.

 

In the meantime, IMHO, questions such as this are terrific as they can be answered by the membership, rather than Alex or John.  Unfortunately, I don't recall if Alex or John ever mentioned what inhabits the moat so I can't provide an answer.  Anyone else?

 

 

[Superdad]

25 minutes ago, rickca said:

Are there snakes and alligators in the EtherREGEN moat? 

Don't go there Rick.  You'll only get me in trouble.  And I have enough of that. 

[PYP]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

Are there snakes and alligators in the EtherREGEN moat? 

 

I was hoping that the illustration for the website would at least include something that looked like a moat (with or without inhabitants).  Thought it would be fun, with all the hight tech, to draw in a moat and see what folks thought.  

[EVOLVIST]

1 hour ago, ericuco said:

I can’t imagine anything upstream of the EtherREGEN making much difference. For streaming service think about all of the network equipment the data flows through before arriving at your house.

 

But here you're just talking about streaming service, right? Because you wrote "anything upstream," so if I'm using the Comcast Router/Modem combo, placing the EtherREGEN between my router and my streamer/DAC should be what it's all about right? That should be where the sonic benefits happen, because you're cleaning up everything upstream from the DAC, yes? 

[Adyc]

11 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

The EtherREGEN was designed so it works very well going "backwards", the B side port connected to a switch and the SFP optical connection to a renderer with an optical input such as the opticalRendu. All the isolation works identically in both directions.

 

John S.

 

I thought OR only works with 1 Gbit? Or OR requires 1Gbit transceiver, the actual network speed does not matter?

[Superdad]

7 minutes ago, Adyc said:

I thought OR only works with 1 Gbit? Or OR requires 1Gbit transceiver, the actual network speed does not matter?

 

Correct. And the SFP cage of the EtherREGEN is for Gigabit modules, same as the opticalRendu.

[Bernstein]

...9AM PT means 00:00 In Germany: last action before going to bed...

[octaviars]

@Bernstein 9AM PST will that not be 18.00 in CET the same day?

 

https://time.is/sv/CET

[Bernstein]

4 hours ago, octaviars said:

@Bernstein 9AM PST will that not be 18.00 in CET the same day?

 

https://time.is/sv/CET

 

You are right: too early in the morning 😂😂😂 for me to think straight. 

[ericuco]

10 hours ago, EVOLVIST said:

 

But here you're just talking about streaming service, right? Because you wrote "anything upstream," so if I'm using the Comcast Router/Modem combo, placing the EtherREGEN between my router and my streamer/DAC should be what it's all about right? That should be where the sonic benefits happen, because you're cleaning up everything upstream from the DAC, yes? 

 

The EtherREGEN should most likely be placed just before your streamer/DAC regardless of how you are playing music (streaming, local files,, etc.) so data gets scrubbed by the EtherREGEN before hitting your streamer/DAC.

 

As a more home network note, your modem is the first piece of equipment connected from the outside line (probably coax cable), then the router. If you are using the box provided by your ISP, then the modem and router may be in same box. From your router, then you can do as you wish for the most part - Ethernet connection to your EtherREGEN, streamer, switches - the combinations are endless.

 

I have a fiber optic ISP so no router required. A Ethernet cable is the first connection which is connected to my Google Wifi router & WiFi hub. The Google Wifi hub connects (via WiFi) to another Google WiFi end point which is then connected to a switch. This switch serves as a distribution hub for my music server, Roku TV, NAS, and opticalRendu. For my setup the EtherREGEN could possibly replace the distribution switch (except for the fact it doesn't have the ports I need).

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, ericuco said:

The EtherREGEN should most likely be placed just before your streamer/DAC regardless of how you are playing music (streaming, local files,, etc.) so data gets scrubbed by the EtherREGEN before hitting your streamer/DAC.

 

As a more home network note, your modem is the first piece of equipment connected from the outside line (probably coax cable), then the router. If you are using the box provided by your ISP, then the modem and router may be in same box. From your router, then you can do as you wish for the most part - Ethernet connection to your EtherREGEN, streamer, switches - the combinations are endless.

 

Well stated! Can I borrow you to write the EtherREGEN User's Guide for us? 

[DelsFan]

3 hours ago, ericuco said:

 

The EtherREGEN should most likely be placed just before your streamer/DAC regardless of how you are playing music (streaming, local files,, etc.) so data gets scrubbed by the EtherREGEN before hitting your streamer/DAC.

 

As a more home network note, your modem is the first piece of equipment connected from the outside line (probably coax cable), then the router. If you are using the box provided by your ISP, then the modem and router may be in same box. From your router, then you can do as you wish for the most part - Ethernet connection to your EtherREGEN, streamer, switches - the combinations are endless.,,

 

So, everything else in my dedicated Streaming system matters, quality of Streamer/DAC, Headphone Amp, Headphones...  As well as "better" analog and digital interconnects, power cords, lack of wall warts (usually), power conditioners, vibration isolation, etc...

 

I've been hearing this for two years now (and now it is time to replace my cheap all-in-one Comcast supplied modem/router); any Modem and any Router will work as well as any other, for high-end audio, as long as each passes a signal.  [It is agreed, having a router separate from one's modem seems to be better, but apparently not from a sound-quality standpoint.]  I was about to replace the old 60' long coax line feeding my modem from the exterior cable box (under the house, easy to get to in 3' to 4' crawl space) - also a waste of time, yes?

 

Coming from a Linn Sondek Turntable background (purchased in 1978, in an era where whatever was at the "front end" was all-important), it just seems a bit counter-intuitive to me that everything (EVERYTHING) else matters, save for one's modem and router. 

 

(Not directed at ericuco!)

So, tell me one last time and I'll quit asking:

The EtherREGEN will "scrub" the signal headed to the Streamer in my headphone setup; and, even when powered by wall warts, there is nothing a cheap modem or cheap Wi-Fi router can do to even marginally degrade it before it get there.  Correct?

 

 

 

A bit of humour, or at least amusement:  Note in the David vs Goliath photo below, the little Schiit stack on the left.  For 1/40 the price, it actually sounds really good!

[ericuco]

1 hour ago, DelsFan said:

 

So, everything else in my dedicated Streaming system matters, quality of Streamer/DAC, Headphone Amp, Headphones...  As well as "better" analog and digital interconnects, power cords, lack of wall warts (usually), power conditioners, vibration isolation, etc...

 

I've been hearing this for two years now (and now it is time to replace my cheap all-in-one Comcast supplied modem/router); any Modem and any Router will work as well as any other, for high-end audio, as long as each passes a signal.  [It is agreed, having a router separate from one's modem seems to be better, but apparently not from a sound-quality standpoint.]  I was about to replace the old 60' long coax line feeding my modem from the exterior cable box (under the house, easy to get to in 3' to 4' crawl space) - also a waste of time, yes?

 

Coming from a Linn Sondek Turntable background (purchased in 1978, in an era where whatever was at the "front end" was all-important), it just seems a bit counter-intuitive to me that everything (EVERYTHING) else matters, save for one's modem and router. 

 

(Not directed at ericuco!)

So, tell me one last time and I'll quit asking:

The EtherREGEN will "scrub" the signal headed to the Streamer in my headphone setup; and, even when powered by wall warts, there is nothing a cheap modem or cheap Wi-Fi router can do to even marginally degrade it before it get there.  Correct?

 

 

 

A bit of humour, or at least amusement:  Note in the David vs Goliath photo below, the little Schiit stack on the left.  For 1/40 the price, it actually sounds really good!

 

This is starting to move off topic here so I will conclude with "it all depends". All of this is highly system specific. Seeing a photo of your setup helps in that it means you are probably plugging all of your equipment into a single electrical circuit so using LPS MIGHT help cut down any electrical noise on the circuit. Also, you have carpet (vs hardwood) which can affect things. Cables sitting on carpet can POTENTIALLY pick up static electricity.

 

It also depends if you are streaming music from the Internet vs playing local files. With local files, you are not running anything through your modem and router. If you are streaming then PERHAPS upgrading modem and router MIGHT help but as I mentioned earlier, a streaming file has gone through probably hundreds of pieces of network gear before it arrives at your house so ...

 

Also, some people here can tell the difference when they swap out what is seemly the most benign item but report hearing significant improvements. I have experienced that some changes help and others don't, quite unexpectedly at times. For instance, the Cisco switch that was being promoted as improving sound actually sounded worse in my system which is predominantly optical network.

 

The promise of the EtherREGEN is to "scrub" the line. Obviously the less junk it needs to scrub, PROBABLY the better but again, that is for you to determine. That is why the Uptone and Sonore guys leave it to the end user to access the results and why they provide return policies.

[Superdad]

EtherREGEN web page is up!

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/EtherREGEN

 

Launch announcement and details thread begun: