Is Audiophiledom a confidence game?

[OldBigEars]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

vmartell -- They are not trained in science or engineering.  Many are simply little rich kids who went to high quality liberal arts schools on daddy's money, and confuse the inheritance of capital with ability.

 

This isn't new.  Thorsten Veblin wrote an entire book on it decades ago.  And it was common in medieval times as well.

 

Would it fair to say you feel pretty bitter and twisted about life, and the world at large?  

 

[fas42]

9 minutes ago, Michael Lavorgna said:

 

Sure. That's a lovely sentiment. If you think it's anything more than a sentiment, try reconciling reality with your point of view.

 

I have. Reality does provide the feedback that I'm on the right course - I've made a "thing" of modifying, sorting out cheap systems to deliver competent sound; I have a very clear idea of what systems are capable of producing if the silly weaknesses, that are in most of them, are resolved.

[Michael Lavorgna]

4 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

I have.

I'm on the right course..

I've made a "thing" of modifying...

I have a very clear idea...

I'm not talking about *you*. I'm talking about people who try to extrapolate from talking about themselves, to creating rules for everyone else.

 

You are on the right course....for *you*. If you think it's anything more than that, this is where we disagree.

[fas42]

6 minutes ago, Michael Lavorgna said:

I'm not talking about *you*. I'm talking about people who try to extrapolate from talking about themselves, to creating rules for everyone else.

 

You are on the right course....for *you*. If you think it's anything more than that, this is where we disagree.

 

So, you believe it's part of the natural order of things that systems should all sound different; that it's inevitable for a system to colour playback to a significant, subjective degree?

[Michael Lavorgna]

Just now, fas42 said:

 

So, you believe it's part of the natural order of things that systems should all sound different; that's it's inevitable for a system to colour playback to a significant, subjective degree?

 

So, you think you can deduce my beliefs about hi-fi after a couple of exchanges here? And you can do so without even considering the idea that you may not have all of the answers?

 

I'll say this - I do not understand your question ;-)

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, Michael Lavorgna said:

 

So, you think you can deduce my beliefs about hi-fi after a couple of exchanges here? And you can do so without even considering the idea that you may not have all of the answers?

 

I'll say this - I do not understand your question ;-)

 

OK, I'll cut to the chase: have you ever experienced reproduction where the speakers become totally "invisible" - as in, where no matter how close your head is to a speaker on one side, you can't locate the drivers, using your ears alone?

[Michael Lavorgna]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

 

OK, I'll cut to the chase: have you ever experienced reproduction where the speakers become totally "invisible" - as in, where no matter how close your head is to the speaker on one side, you can't locate the drivers, using your ears alone?

Yes.

 

So what?

[fas42]

Just now, Michael Lavorgna said:

Yes.

 

And was that reproduction to a very high standard, in your opinion?

[Michael Lavorgna]

Just now, fas42 said:

 

And was that reproduction to a very high standard, in your opinion?

I thought you were going to cut to the chase.

 

I'm not in the habit of listening to music with my head next to my speakers.

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, Michael Lavorgna said:

I thought you were going to cut to the chase.

 

I'm not in the habit of listening to music with my head next to my speakers.

 

The head next to the speakers test is a 'metric' for evaluating the competence of the chain. Listening to music from the same is allowed in more "normal" positions ...

[Ralf11]

49 minutes ago, Michael Lavorgna said:

 

So you say but reality says otherwise. If every "objectivist" owned the exact same hi-fi, down to the cables, I might begin to agree with this point of view. As it stands, saying that there's an "objective standard" in hi-fi is like saying there's an objective standard in a spouse.

 

one of your more stoopid stmts.

 

if you ask George nicely he might explain it to you

[Ralf11]

27 minutes ago, OldBigEars said:

 

Would it fair to say you feel pretty bitter and twisted about life, and the world at large?  

 

 

no, not at all

 

what gave you that idea?

[Michael Lavorgna]

Just now, Ralf11 said:

 

one of your more stoopid stmts.

 

if you ask George nicely he might explain it to you

Thanks but no thanks. You have a nice day.

[Michael Lavorgna]

1 minute ago, fas42 said:

 

The head next to the speakers test is a 'metric' for evaluating the competence of the chain. Listening to the music from the same is allowed in more "normal" positions ...

I recently reviewed BACCH 3D software. My feeling is, based on what you're saying, it would be of interest.

 

 

[sandyk]

13 minutes ago, fas42 said:

So, you believe it's part of the natural order of things that systems should all sound different; that it's inevitable for a system to colour playback to a significant, subjective degree?

 

 I have yet to hear even very expensive systems in recent years , where the DACs sound identical, let alone the speakers and the rest of the chain. I have been able to listen to some very expensive systems costing >Au$100K, where different DACs etc. were swapped in and out. Some of the Preamps and Power Amplifiers even cost around Au$50K.

 

Alex

[Michael Lavorgna]

4 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 I have yet to hear even very expensive systems in recent years , where the DACs sound identical, let alone the speakers and the rest of the chain. I have been able to listen to some very expensive systems costing >Au$100K, where different DACs etc. were swapped in and out. Some of the Preamps and Power Amplifiers even cost around Au$50K.

 

Alex

Me too.

 

Different kinds of speakers sound different. People prefer all different kinds of speakers. Different speakers require different amplifiers. People live in different spaces and have different requirements for their hi-fi. And so on.

 

The idea that there's some universal "standard" is a great theory but it fails to take into account these real differences.

 

But that's really beside the point since people tend buy things they like ;-)

[The Computer Audiophile]

Time to move on @Michael Lavorgna. You've been banned for the following message to a CA member. 

[fas42]

5 minutes ago, Michael Lavorgna said:

I recently reviewed BACCH 3D software. My feeling is, based on what you're saying, it would be of interest.

 

 

 

My experiencing was with totally conventional playback - source, amplifier, speakers. The latter were extremely normal, 2 way box units with no fancy additives, anywhere. That this behaviour occurred was solely because the playback chain was in a very high state of "tune" - if any part of the system fell below the necessary standard then the sound degenerated to the conventional, obvious sound emerging from the drivers.

 

Why it occurs appears to be because the brain accepts the illusion being presented - any audible anomalies which "give the game away" are not strong enough, at that point, to disrupt the 'mirage'.

[Rexp]

2 hours ago, Michael Lavorgna said:

 

The hi-fi industry is not a confidence game. Referring to the art market, religion, etc was a way of putting things in some perspective.

 

Here's a tip for you - cables don't have a sound. If you don't believe me, pick one up and put each end in your ears. Nothing.

 

Systems, on the other hand, have a sound and cables can certainly effect the sound of a system.

I rate your reviews of digital gear Michael because you also run a turntable which qualifies you as an audiophile in my book. If the hi-fi industry is not a confidence game why has it been peddling the lie that CD sound in general is acceptable?

[crenca]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Time to move on @Michael Lavorgna. You've been banned for the following message to a CA member. 

 

The thing is, tourette's is a real thing and Michael is but a victim.  I hope he at least gets a handicap parking sticker out of it...

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

The thing is, tourette's is a real thing and Michael is but a victim.  I hope he at least gets a handicap parking sticker out of it...

 

That's a bit low, no matter who it's aimed at.

[fas42]

19 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 I have yet to hear even very expensive systems in recent years , where the DACs sound identical, let alone the speakers and the rest of the chain. I have been able to listen to some very expensive systems costing >Au$100K, where different DACs etc. were swapped in and out. Some of the Preamps and Power Amplifiers even cost around Au$50K.

 

Alex

 

Alex, the money spent doesn't come into it - if anything, higher priced components can make things worse; because they get so much right, but still the overall system has clear weaknesses which are too intrusive, audibly.

 

I can only repeat, over and over and over again - a competent system results from the elimination of all audible flaws; not, the addition of pricey, upmarket components!! It's a very simple principle, which always works, completely consistently IME.

[crenca]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

That's a bit low, no matter who it's aimed at.

 

 

Probably right, but Michael's consistent & reflexive personal insulting seems to be a kind of "tick" he just can't move away from.  What else can you do but tolerate it in discussion and try to focus on the substantial issues?  I do agree with you that a line has been crossed however.

[Rexp]

24 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Time to move on @Michael Lavorgna. You've been banned for the following message to a CA member. 

What!! I'd rather see Ralf banned.

[sandyk]

16 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

That's a bit low, no matter who it's aimed at.

 Chris

 There is no excuse for the message that Michael sent, but I hope that the guys who provoked Michael don't get off without even a warning ?

Reviewers and some well known designers often seem to be targeted by some members as fair game, often either being driven away or ceasing posting for quite a while.

 

Regards

Alex