Why Do People Come To Computer Audiophile To Display Their Contempt For Audiophiles?

[esldude]

10 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

my fishers better than your fisher

Actually that's my Fisher or yours looks like mine.

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

Just as cheap to tell people their ears are crap.

 

Speak for yourself.  My ears are just fine.  Can tell the difference between an average clock and a low phase-noise one, a good or great power supply, and different film types in a capacitor--among a few hundred other things that are claimed to be irrelevant or inaudible.

But if one has no sense of music (or any natural, acoustic recordings), and no ability to close eyes, breath, and experience differences, then sure, such things don't matter.

But judging by the continued vibrancy of the 2-channel audio market--including some pretty extreme headphone devotees--I'd say that there are more experienced and open-eared music lovers than there are nay-saying pseudo-scientists trying to "save" us.  

[plissken]

5 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Speak for yourself.  My ears are just fine.  Can tell the difference between an average clock and a low phase-noise one, a good or great power supply, and different film types in a capacitor--among a few hundred other things that are claimed to be irrelevant or inaudible.

But if one has no sense of music (or any natural, acoustic recordings), and no ability to close eyes, breath, and experience differences, then sure, such things don't matter.

But judging by the continued vibrancy of the 2-channel audio market--including some pretty extreme headphone devotees--I'd say that there are more experienced and open-eared music lovers than there are nay-saying pseudo-scientists trying to "save" us.  

 

But yet you backed out on a bias controlled evaluation of your own product Alex.

 

"and no ability to close eyes, breath, and experience differences"

 

Oh the Hypocrisy.

[Superdad]

23 minutes ago, esldude said:

Actually that's my Fisher or yours looks like mine.

 

Here's me with mine (well, my father's--he worked directly for Avery Fisher--and his was a silver-soldered unit, something Fisher did for the Navy).  Still have that very one in my vintage audio museum (aka the tops of my record shelves).

The LP playing when this photo was taken?  Nina Simone's very first album, "Little Girl Blue"--which the recent SACD remastering of is still a weekly reference recording of mine.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

18 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Speak for yourself.  My ears are just fine.  Can tell the difference between an average clock and a low phase-noise one, a good or great power supply, and different film types in a capacitor--among a few hundred other things that are claimed to be irrelevant or inaudible.

Well sure and I can leap tall buildings.

Problems only arise when we are asked to demonstrate this ability. 

[mansr]

51 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Speak for yourself.  My ears are just fine.  Can tell the difference between an average clock and a low phase-noise one, a good or great power supply, and different film types in a capacitor--among a few hundred other things that are claimed to be irrelevant or inaudible.

That wasn't even meant to be a trap, yet you fell right in it. Wow. I'm impressed. You truly have a remarkable ability.

[Ralf11]

The smell test for meat smoke is one of my favs

[Jud]

3 hours ago, christopher3393 said:

Science in action doesn't always look like "best practices".

 

Relax, no one here is doing real science in the field of audio.  (At least no one I know of who I’ve noticed participating in the thread yet).  One or two are scientists in other fields, one or two are engineers working in the audio field.  None I know of that I’ve seen participating has performed audio testing for a peer reviewed paper published in an academic journal.

 

Lots of talk of science, but really what we all are going for is to understand, and in a couple of cases design and build, things a little better.

[Sal1950]

6 hours ago, Superdad said:

Speak for yourself.  My ears are just fine.

6 hours ago, plissken said:

But yet you backed out on a bias controlled evaluation of your own product Alex.

 

What, no comment as usual SuperDad?

I think you flatter yourself at every available opportunity.

[Teresa]

19 hours ago, adamdea said:

I'm afraid that in the intervening years someone must have broken in and removed all of the facts, links to evidence and logical connections from the article. I imagine that in its day it must have been quite something.

 

The Audio Iconoclast blog was mine, I closed down all but one of my blogs when I developed dementia. I'm sorry I searched for it at archive.org and archive.is I couldn't find an archive of it.

 

However, I did find an archive of Blind Listening Tests are Flawed: An Editorial by Robert Harley

 

The other link to ABX Test is still working.

 

Hope this helps. 

[Teresa]

17 hours ago, AJ Soundfield said:

I agree, but some consistency is nice. Especially when accepting/dismissing perceptions.

 

Hey, I don't dismiss anything. If those power bracelets work for the wearers, who I am to question them? By the same token I don't diss people for buying $100 hamburgers or spending $1,000+ on wine. It's their money and their pleasure.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Teresa said:

If those power bracelets work for the wearers, who I am to question them? 

 

Hi Teresa -

 

In some of those bracelet cases, if you felt you knew the people well enough, you might, because harm could result.  For example my aunt, as with all my mother’s family, was absolutely petrified of cancer, and when she first started having pains she instantly assumed that’s what it was.  She lived independently with a neighbor’s help, and by the time any of us became aware of what was happening, she was confined to a wheelchair for the rest of her life (almost 20 years) by simple osteoporosis that should have been easily treated.

 

Here in the audio world, fortunately, no such situations are occurring.  Here it’s just “bikeshedding.”  

 

That’s from an old complaint from a FreeBSD developer.  He wrote that if there were a nuclear power plant proposal with all the plans for all the systems shown, what people might wind up arguing most fervently about would be what color to paint the bike shed.  Few would consider themselves qualified to comment on the most technical systems.  But everyone would think he or she was an expert on something like the best color.  So with technical subjects, like software development, nuclear power plants, or audio, no one argues about the real technical meat of the thing, like component choices and circuit topology.  People tend to pick something they feel comfortable with (“How much could a wire matter?”) and argue incessantly about that, leaving the really important, difficult, technical stuff well alone.

[AJ Soundfield]

1 hour ago, Teresa said:

 

Hey, I don't dismiss anything. If those power bracelets work for the wearers, who I am to question them?

Bingo, me neither. Only their verifiably false objective claims as to why.

[jabbr]

9 hours ago, Jud said:

Lots of talk of science, but really what we all are going for is to understand, and in a couple of cases design and build, things a little better.

There are two bottom lines in Science: designing & building things better is one of them.

[jabbr]

11 hours ago, Superdad said:

My ears are just fine.  Can tell the difference between an average clock and a low phase-noise one, a good or great power supply, and different film types in a capacitor--among a few hundred other things that are claimed to be irrelevant or inaudible.

You clearly have experience that goes back decades. You've brought a number of products to market. I am sure the manufacturers who use your caps in their crossovers appreciate their ability to rely on a consistent product with a consistent sound -- their own distributors & customers wouldn't appreciate if speaker sound differed from month to month as different random brands of caps were used.

 

We have every reason to believe that the Regen regenerates the USB signal, and that the power supplies are very well designed choke input filtered & supercap based. The prices are very reasonable -- Id never be able to bring a product to market at your prices -- and your customers are very very happy.

 

Even if some if the claims or purported mechanisms of action are not supported by measurements, none are outside known laws of physics!

 

What is all this grief?

 

in contrast there are many other vendors whose claims are outside of  known science -- that's where vitriol would be more appropriately directed. 

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

People tend to pick something they feel comfortable with (“How much could a wire matter?”) and argue incessantly about that, leaving the really important, difficult, technical stuff well alone.

maybe it's strong desire to customize & get last little bit of "edge"

[Foggie]

If you think about it, much of this is pointless unless one can answer, are black holes are made of anything

[plissken]

6 minutes ago, jabbr said:

What is all this grief?

 

The fact that BE, Amir, John Atkinson all measured a product from them that made things worse but people were still crowing about its performance.

 

The fact Alex said he would sit for a bias controlled evaluation any time and then tucked tail and bravely ran away.

 

The fact that UpTone has never produced a single measurement of the affected output of a DAC to show an improvement.

[jabbr]

55 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

The fact that BE, Amir, John Atkinson all measured a product from them that made things worse but people were still crowing about its performance.

 

Whose role is it to parrot their arguments? They are entirely capable of making any arguments they wish to make for themselves. You started a long painful thread about this, surely you've said everything you possibly could. But don't parrot other peoples arguments. If you have more to say then say them based on your own measurements ... oh and I've already said in the "other" thread that I don't agree with those measurements. Do you agree with the specific measurements I've proposed? If not why? Justify yourself. If you can't then don't criticize.

 

Quote

 

The fact Alex said he would sit for a bias controlled evaluation any time and then tucked tail and bravely ran away.

 

The fact that UpTone has never produced a single measurement of the affected output of a DAC to show an improvement.

 

So? That's "industry standard". You or I might want, in a more perfect world, for the entire industry to publish more measurements but Alex is not out of line. I'd be very happy if all DACs produced a high quality linewidth measurements (end to end phase error) ... but they aren't routinely done. Don't fault @Superdad for that ... that said more measurements are entirely appropriate.

 

 

 

[jabbr]

13 hours ago, Superdad said:

Can tell the difference between an average clock and a low phase-noise one

I would like your description, as detailed as possible, of what the audible difference between an average qnd low phase-noise clock is?

[AJ Soundfield]

8 minutes ago, jabbr said:

I would like your description, as detailed as possible, of what the audible difference between an average qnd low phase-noise clock is?

I'd be sorely disappointed if it didn't involve veils and PRAT

[plissken]

28 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 ... oh and I've already said in the "other" thread that I don't agree with those measurements.

That's great. End of dialectic. You don't agree with those measurements so there we have it folks.

 

Everyone can go home now. Jabbr, don't forget to turn out the lights.

28 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Do you agree with the specific measurements I've proposed? If not why? Justify yourself. If you can't then don't criticize.

What issue are your measurements exposing? Criticize what exactly? Wasn't it another thread you posted a white paper to, that you seemingly didn't comprehend, that supported what I had been saying all along that you took mistaken issue with?

 

Pot meet kettle.

 

28 minutes ago, jabbr said:

But, why not direct your vitriol toward the marketing claims of "liquid cables" or quantum AC power cables, or other real nonsense.

 You may have missed the WireWorld and Nordost Ethernet threads.

 

[jabbr]

1 minute ago, AJ Soundfield said:

I'd be sorely disappointed if it didn't involve veils and PRAT

Stay out in left field so you try to catch any balls hit out there.

 

There are those of us who would like to know, given the mathematical effect of phase error on DAC signal output -- the linewidth describes the close-in phase error (not all of "jitter") and we know that the big difference between "average" and "low phase error" clocks is primarily in the close-in error. The mathematical effect is very clear (feel free to run a simulation if you question), so the real question is: what is the audible effect and at what level are the effects audible?

[AJ Soundfield]

10 minutes ago, jabbr said:

There are those of us who would like to know, given the mathematical effect of phase error on DAC signal output

Wait, it's not just those crazy "Objectivist" folks insisting relevance only at DAC output? Who knew...

 

Quote

The mathematical effect is very clear (feel free to run a simulation if you question), so the real question is: what is the audible effect and at what level are the effects audible?

And how do you propose to establish this audibility correlation? Using what method?

Or is that presumed done and we are about to hear all about this "linewidth" sound?

[jabbr]

13 minutes ago, plissken said:

You may have missed the WireWorld and Nordost Ethernet threads.

 

Hey man, I don't just automatically disagree with everything you say  

Main point is that the three people you referenced didn't do any measurements that either directly or indirectly measure phase error (the other half of the complex issue) ... and that the measurements are standard wide spectrum FFT...

 

but yes you could investigate "topics" like "liquid cables" and quantum effects in power cables and a number of other things that I'm sure we would totally agree on... I don't see UpTone being the issue here, a number of people who have done measurements (e.g. @Wavelength) have pointed out imperfections in signal transmission. Ethernet by and large is much much better (and Belden does real measurements).