Those who own Audioquest cable...what do you think?

[gmgraves]

An 'interesting' story that is most likely made up and offered by one similar to certain proselytizing members of this forum with a particularly rigid point of view.

 

 

Oh, I'm not saying that the story wasn't made up, it just wasn't made-up by me. Actually I have no first hand knowledge of the veracity of the story one way or the other. My friend who told it to me told it about 6 months ago. I haven't posted it until now for the simple reason that this subject hasn't come up here on this forum till now. I don't know this guy to be a liar, but who knows?

[gmgraves]

I love your story George, please tell us another.

 

 

Sorry, Sal, it's the only one I have at the moment!

[sandyk]

I'm not bashing anything

 

George

Immediately after that post where I said that, you came up with an esldude style story about tricking people who heard differences, which you can't even state is definitely genuine.

 

Alex

[jabbr]

1) I'm not saying that you and others don't hear differences in cables.

 

2) I'm not saying that the differences you hear aren't real. It's very possible that they are.

 

3) I am saying that those differences cannot possibly be the result of the X_c and X_l and the R of the cable. This is the only point I'm trying to get across.

 

4) I am saying that if interconnect sound does exist, it's due to some other, unknown factor.

 

I'm not bashing anything but people keep bringing-up this LRC thing when it's tantamount to saying that since chlorine bleach is poisonous, an eyedropper drop of bleach in a a gallon of water will kill someone. It's about that level of scale.

 

Firstly, I don't bother too much with interconnect comparisons recently, because I've got a large stack of much more important projects and my prior tests suggested that antenna effects predominated. That said I'm not convinced that audible differences can't exist beyond antenna effects.

 

Is there a reason why dielectric effects in cables *can't* be audible? What about thermal noise? Shouldn't cables be subject to similar effects as resistors? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[gmgraves]

Has any research been made about the importance of RF/EMI rejection in a 20 or 50cm interconnect?

 

I'm not overly confident of my assessments with cables but when comparing shielded vs. unshielded I preferred the latter.

 

My current ICs are just three parallel conductors floating in space...

 

R

 

 

While interference is a possible culprit, it would also mean that cables would behave very differently in different systems and in some systems, even the most expensive cables would have no sound at all (because there are no sources of interference). Has anyone reported this to be the case? Secondly, the best shielded cables would sound best, and balanced interconnects would have no sound because interference is common-mode and balanced cancels common-mode. Yet, I've never heard anyone say that true, balanced interconnects are immune to "cable sound". Again, has anyone reported this phenomenon?

 

I think it unlikely. We need to keep looking for a cause.

[Jud]

While you may have preferred the particular unshielded cables you had in your system, extending that generally to shielded vs unshielded cables is not justified. In more cases than not, the opposite would likely be true.

 

Hi Allan. Just curious about what leads you to say that. (I can think of reasons, but wondered what yours was.)

[Jud]

While interference is a possible culprit, it would also mean that cables would behave very differently in different systems and in some systems, even the most expensive cables would have no sound at all (because there are no sources of interference). Has anyone reported this to be the case? Secondly, the best shielded cables would sound best, and balanced interconnects would have no sound because interference is common-mode and balanced cancels common-mode. Yet, I've never heard anyone say that true, balanced interconnects are immune to "cable sound". Again, has anyone reported this phenomenon?

 

I think it unlikely. We need to keep looking for a cause.

 

Wait, after a thread with pages upon pages filled with people insisting there is no such thing as cable sound, you're saying you've never heard anyone report there is no cable sound?

 

I certainly have, and I have no reason to doubt those reports (i.e., I don't think the people doing the reporting are dishonest, deaf, have bad systems, etc.).

[Jud]

While interference is a possible culprit, it would also mean that cables would behave very differently in different systems....

 

Exactly. And not just interference. As I just mentioned a few comments ago, a pair of cables with different ground potential than those they replaced made a huge difference in the sound of the analog part of my system (that is, the replacement cables stopped a whomping ground hum from the phono input); but the same design of cables that caused the ground hum have behaved perfectly well before, during and since then in any number of applications in my system over 15 or more years.

 

Why would this be surprising?

[Allan F]

Hi Allan. Just curious about what leads you to say that. (I can think of reasons, but wondered what yours was.)

I'm just working from first principles, Jud. All else being equal, it would seem logical that cables shielded from the effects of emi/rfi should sound better - or at least, no worse - than similar cables that are not so shielded. OTOH, I would expect that would not necessarily follow for cables of dissimilar characteristics.

[One and a half]

Exactly. And not just interference. As I just mentioned a few comments ago, a pair of cables with different ground potential than those they replaced made a huge difference in the sound of the analog part of my system (that is, the replacement cables stopped a whomping ground hum from the phono input); but the same design of cables that caused the ground hum have behaved perfectly well before, during and since then in any number of applications in my system over 15 or more years.

 

Why would this be surprising?

 

It's not suprising Every component, whether a cartridge, amp, dac will have a different ground potential to the other. Whenever a connecting cable be it power or signal (that does include digital) will create different shield currents and returns to AC grounds. The amount of hum induced (50/60Hz) is going to be there, 100% guaranteed, it will affect the signal being amplified, but the way it can manifest audibly is either going to be easy, you can hear it through the speakers, or the sinister kind, where it mixes with the signal to create weird sounds where you don't want it to.

 

If cable A produces a distinct treble distortion and it is replaced with cable B of a different geometry or RLC characteristics, it might sound better, so the conclusion is Cable B is better.

This is not a conclusive happy ending story though, since the hum is still there. Take a look at some hum potentials I measured the other day, these voltages are significant. Of the cables I had on hand, the one that in service has the highest hum "resistance", the Nordost Blue Heaven USB, and surprise it sounds the best. The Nordost still transmits hum though.

[Sal1950]

Hi Allan. Just curious about what leads you to say that. (I can think of reasons, but wondered what yours was.)

 

May I make a short response to that.

Starting from point A why would you NOT try to protect your signal from as much outside interference as possible?

And in the end since you believe the unshielded cables sound different in your system, with no measurements or (god forbid) any blind listening tests to

A. Confirm the difference exists.

B. Exclude the possibility that outside interference is not changing the sound in a inaccurate way.

C. Prove that the difference you hear in your cables is an improvement (more accurate, not just sounds better).

How can you be comfortable in any conclusion at all, how do you know your not wrong?

[sandyk]

May I make a short response to that.

Starting from point A why would you NOT try to protect your signal from as much outside interference as possible?

And in the end since you believe the unshielded cables sound different in your system, with no measurements or (god forbid) any blind listening tests to

A. Confirm the difference exists.

B. Exclude the possibility that outside interference is not changing the sound in a inaccurate way.

C. Prove that the difference you hear in your cables is an improvement (more accurate, not just sounds better).

How can you be comfortable in any conclusion at all, how do you know your not wrong?

 

The only minor disagreement I have with that reply, is the Blind Listening, which I would change to non sighted.

[semente]

R, Where did you come up with that idea? OMG your killing me..

 

The idea came from DNM.

Can't get any simpler...too simple?

 

R

[gmgraves]

Wait, after a thread with pages upon pages filled with people insisting there is no such thing as cable sound, you're saying you've never heard anyone report there is no cable sound?

 

Huh? What are you talking about Jud? I asked whether anyone had ever reported that some cables seem to have a sound in one system, but not in another and whether anyone had noticed whether or not balanced cables were subject to the same cable sound issues as do unbalanced shielded cables. I said nothing about never having heard anyone report that there is no cable sound.

 

I certainly have, and I have no reason to doubt those reports (i.e., I don't think the people doing the reporting are dishonest, deaf, have bad systems, etc.).

 

We have all heard people say that.

[sandyk]

The only minor disagreement I have with that reply, is the Blind Listening, which I would change to non sighted.

On further reflection, I would add that a simple lightly twisted pair is likely to have much less capacitance than a shielded cable, and MAY have some interaction with an output stage designed for typical interconnects. If of a relatively long length, it is likely to be much more affected by RF/EMI and hum fields.

[semente]

Prove that the difference you hear in your cables is an improvement (more accurate, not just sounds better).

 

For me, "sounding better" is usually related with tonal balance and generally I prefer not to refer to deviations from flat frequency response as distortions.

 

All the rest tends to be accuracy, or lack of (some form of distortion).

 

R

[mansr]

a pair of cables with different ground potential than those they replaced

 

That makes no sense. Ground potential is the voltage difference between the "ground" of a device and actual earth. It's not a property of cables.

[Jud]

That makes no sense. Ground potential is the voltage difference between the "ground" of a device and actual earth. It's not a property of cables.

 

Well then I'll put the newer cables back between identical components - whoops, ground hum! I keep telling them they make no sense, but they won't keep quiet!

 

(Have a look at realhifi's comment, where he puts it better than I did. Yes, we're talking about ground potential of system components connected by cables, and how much resistance there is in the ground leg of the cable to the flow of current based on those potentials.)

[mansr]

Well then I'll put the newer cables back between identical components - whoops, ground hum! I keep telling them they make no sense, but they won't keep quiet!

 

Since the problematic cable was unshielded, everything points at the hum being interference rather than a ground loop. I've had similar problems myself with poor cables.

 

Remember that the sensitivity to induced hum varies between components. For instance, a phono input stage has very high gain making it far more susceptible to hum than a line level input.

 

(Have a look at realhifi's comment, where he puts it better than I did. Yes, we're talking about ground potential of system components connected by cables, and how much resistance there is in the ground leg of the cable to the flow of current based on those potentials.)

 

Do those cables have abnormally high resistance (several ohms)?

[Jud]

May I make a short response to that.

Starting from point A why would you NOT try to protect your signal from as much outside interference as possible?

 

Yes, you would definitely want to do that, all else being equal. But what if all else isn't equal?

 

When I was trying to decide on a layout for my DAC, some of the people I spoke with advised shielding the chassis to keep radiated EMI fields from the rest of the system. Others said this would reflect EMI fields internally and cause interference within the DAC itself.

 

These were all audio engineers and/or veteran DIYers, and this was a point where there were informed opinions both ways.

 

I've read people discussing similar things about cable design. Is it external interference we should be more concerned with? Or crosstalk and EMI fields among the conductors of one cable? There's a lot of talk about the latter, particularly as regards the conductors in USB cables.

 

Of course that discussion could be mostly or entirely BS, though I'm not sure why the discussion about external EMI (the reason for shielding) would have to be more valid than the discussion about internal sources of EMI like power and signal conductors being bundled in close proximity to ground.

 

Over decades, I've gravitated toward the use of particular mostly unshielded cable designs in my system. Whether this has to do with the fact that I've lived in semi-rural areas where external sources of EMI might be minimal, I don't know. I don't even know whether I'm right about the cables I tend to like sounding better or different than other cables.

 

I don't know much, but I know I love listening to music on my system; and like the man sings, that may be all I need to know.

[Jud]

Since the problematic cable was unshielded, everything points at the hum being interference rather than a ground loop. I've had similar problems myself with poor cables.

 

 

You haven't read carefully if you think "everything" points to the hum being interference. I have cables with that identical design all through that same system, running past component transformers, power strips full of SMPSs, power cables, etc., and no hum. OTOH, I've had ground hum problems in my system previously with the connection to the turntable, which in that case was a shielded phono cable.

[plissken]

You missed the point. It's the brain that creates the healing.

 

I think we both understand the same point

[mansr]

You haven't read carefully if you think "everything" points to the hum being interference. I have cables with that identical design all through that same system, running past component transformers, power strips full of SMPSs, power cables, etc., and no hum. OTOH, I've had ground hum problems in my system previously with the connection to the turntable, which in that case was a shielded phono cable.

 

You carefully ignored that the signal from the turntable is very low level and thus far more susceptible to interference than the other (line level) connections in the system.

[Jud]

Do those cables have abnormally high resistance (several ohms)?

 

I haven't measured, and since they haven't been made in quite a while, specs aren't readily available as far as I can tell. Considering how very thin the conductors are, I wouldn't be surprised if resistance was high.

[Jud]

You carefully ignored that the signal from the turntable is very low level and thus far more susceptible to interference than the other (line level) connections in the system.

 

Once again: The previous hum problem with that connection in my system occurred with a *shielded* phono cable.