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Those who own Audioquest cable...what do you think?


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I doubt anyone paying attention believes this sentence. We all know that you, Jud, the lawyer, would not ask this question unless you knew the answer.

 

This is typical click-baiting by our moderator. Once again proving the misinterpreted, yet beloved and widely accepted truth of Shakespeare's quote "first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers".

 

- I'm absolutely sincere. I ask the vast, vast majority of my questions to learn something from the answers. The very small number of times I ask a rhetorical question, I never preface it by saying I don't know the answer. On the other hand, I hope you're joking.

 

- Regarding "click-baiting by our moderator," what does Chris C. have to do with this? He's the one and only moderator at CA.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I doubt anyone paying attention believes this sentence. We all know that you, Jud, the lawyer, would not ask this question unless you knew the answer.

 

This is typical click-baiting by our moderator. Once again proving the misinterpreted, yet beloved and widely accepted truth of Shakespeare's quote "first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers".

 

What do you do for a living (aside from being a smart ass on the internet)?

Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs  

Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC 

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You are, deliberately or not, confusing unrelated matters.

 

Perhaps one person's confusion is another's clarification. Or perhaps I am confused, which is always possible. But in any case, to your points:

 

For an audio interconnect, we care about two aspects:

1. How well it delivers the input signal to the other end of the cable.

2. How well it rejects external interference.

 

In general I would agree, and will agree completely if you either (a) delete "external" before interference, or (b) include phenomena such as crosstalk between conductors in your definition of "external interference." Perhaps we could agree on simply "...rejects noise" (noise defined to include interference) for the second point?

 

The first is entirely determined by the LCR values of the cable while the second depends on shielding.

 

If we include phenomena like crosstalk, that would also bring in internal cable design, or shielding of conductors from each other. OK so far?

 

The output from a cable consists of the filtered (LCR again) input plus noise.

 

Yes.

 

With few exceptions, the improvements people report from fancy cables could only be the result of filtering the input, not by changes in noise.

 

This is the second time you've stated this, and the second time I will disagree. The previous time it took me about two seconds to think of two often-recited descriptions of claimed improvement: (1) Being able to hear more detail; and (2) improvement in microdynamics. This time around, I can think in another couple of seconds of two more descriptions: (3) The music came from a "blacker background;" and (4) so common as to be a cliché and the subject of amusement, "A veil was lifted." All of these descriptions are often used to describe improvements in SQ due to cables, and all, I would submit, are consonant with reduction of low-level noise.

 

Please note I am *not* saying such claims should automatically be assigned some degree of validity. I am simply saying they do not require anything like new or exotic physics, but could reasonably be due to just slightly better behavior regarding your #2 aspect above.

 

It is indisputable that any basic, well-made cable is transparent to audio frequencies. It thus follows that the reported changes, if real, are the result of extreme inductance or capacitance.

 

I don't have the technical background to know whether your first sentence is correct, but have no particular problem accepting it, at the very least for the sake of argument. However, to the extent differences in noise behavior are a reasonable potential explanation for at least some reports, to that extent the extremes you describe are not required.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I sincerely hope you are correct. I believe, however, in this instance the evidence suggests otherwise.
Actually, there is a complete lack of evidence to support your contention, so it is incapable of suggesting anything of the kind. Your biased opinion is anything but evidence.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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Actually, there is a complete lack of evidence to support your contention, so it is incapable of suggesting anything of the kind. Your biased opinion is anything but evidence.

 

Uh huh. I'm guessing you are/were a lawyer also, Allan?

 

Everyone raise their hand who guessed this one! Feeling slighted, Allan?

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Which of the comments are you saying are incorrect?

Do you know a way to measure and characterize "soundstage", etc.? Do you disagree that it would useful to have a predictive tool that could be used to see how SQ varies with LCR, etc.?

You seem not to have really read my post.

 

Do you base your opinion about cables on experiments (e.g. proper DBT on similar and dissimilar cables) ?

 

If what goes into one end of the cable isn't different than what comes out the other end, the cable has no effect on SQ or soundstage. Because the signal hasn't been altered. If two different cables both manage to pass the signal without altering it again neither will alter sound quality.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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snip.........

 

This is the second time you've stated this, and the second time I will disagree. The previous time it took me about two seconds to think of two often-recited descriptions of claimed improvement: (1) Being able to hear more detail; and (2) improvement in microdynamics. This time around, I can think in another couple of seconds of two more descriptions: (3) The music came from a "blacker background;" and (4) so common as to be a cliché and the subject of amusement, "A veil was lifted." All of these descriptions are often used to describe improvements in SQ due to cables, and all, I would submit, are consonant with reduction of low-level noise.

 

snip

 

With all respect Jud, the above description of improvements mirrors what has been said about virtually every single thing ever proposed to help with sound. A cliche indeed.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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If what goes into one end of the cable isn't different than what comes out the other end, the cable has no effect on SQ or soundstage. Because the signal hasn't been altered. If two different cables both manage to pass the signal without altering it again neither will alter sound quality.

 

Exactly.

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If what goes into one end of the cable isn't different than what comes out the other end, the cable has no effect on SQ or soundstage. Because the signal hasn't been altered. If two different cables both manage to pass the signal without altering it again neither will alter sound quality.

 

This is clearly true but answers none of my questions.

You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star

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With all respect Jud, the above description of improvements mirrors what has been said about virtually every single thing ever proposed to help with sound. A cliche indeed.

 

Quite true. My only points are that anyone who contends descriptions of sonic improvements are inconsistent with reduction of low level noise as a *potential* explanation is quite wrong; and that this would require no new or exotic physics of cables at all.

 

This doesn't mean such descriptions couldn't be wrong, the result of placebo, etc.; only that quite prosaic everyday physics would potentially cause such effects.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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This is clearly true but answers none of my questions.

 

You asked about measuring soudstage. You asked about LCR and how it varies with sound quality. Simple answer, if LCR in conventional use of cables doesn't change the signal it doesn't change the sound quality. Such is the case.

 

What L, C, or R would effect sound quality? One that could change the signal, typically in terms of frequency response. Those have to be so large as to be intentional or incompetent. If intentional we are now down to a haphazard EQ effect which varies with which gear it is connected to. Simple method, don't do EQ this way. Connect transparently and if you want EQ do actual controllable EQ. We could go through the process of giving you numbers, but it is a waste of time.

 

As for soundstage, it can only vary if the signal varies. With stereo there are only 2 signals. You can effect it with proper EQ bumps and dips. You can effect it by blending the two channels. You could extract how much stereo info is there by deriving a difference signal between the two channels. Soundstage is a result of differing channel info, FR effects and interactions with speakers and room. There may not be a single number we can put on it. Doesn't make it some mystery that falls between the cracks.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Uh huh. I'm guessing you are/were a lawyer also, Allan?

 

...Feeling slighted, Allan?

Not in the slightest, because my background gives me considerably more than a little knowledge of the difference between unsupported opinion and evidence. :)

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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General question for folks in the thread: In terms of electrical characteristics being well understood, and sonic characteristics being a function of the common electrical measurements, would you consider capacitors to be similar to cables?

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Quite true. My only points are that anyone who contends descriptions of sonic improvements are inconsistent with reduction of low level noise as a *potential* explanation is quite wrong; and that this would require no new or exotic physics of cables at all.

 

This doesn't mean such descriptions couldn't be wrong, the result of placebo, etc.; only that quite prosaic everyday physics would potentially cause such effects.

 

Conventional cables will not contribute noise at any level that can matter from their use as a signal carrier.

 

Conventional cables in some environments could allow noise to leak in to a level that matters. That normally is not a big issue in the home environment. It is one that many worry about as possible. You might recall I put up once how an SE unshielded cable wrapped 3 times around a PC power supply had audible and measurable artefacts. Unwrapping the cable dropped the obviously audible part out though the cable ran right next to the PS. You could still measure the noise was there. Moving it 6 inches from the PS dropped it below the noise floor of the equipment (if I remember right that was around -105 db for the 0-24khz band). A shielded SE cable lowered noise some though I forget how much. A balanced cable wrapped 5 times around the same PC PS picked up nothing I could hear or measure (and the noise floor dropped 3 or 4 db with the balanced connection).

 

It is easy to add noise to a file and see what it causes when you listen to music. People seem to worry about very low levels causing issues and corroborate it with sighted listening. Yet there is the file the guy at Liberty instruments made of a nice recording. At -60 db he mixed in a raucous marching band recording. I don't know of anyone who can tell the band is playing at that level.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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You asked about measuring soudstage. You asked about LCR and how it varies with sound quality. Simple answer, if LCR in conventional use of cables doesn't change the signal it doesn't change the sound quality. Such is the case.

 

What L, C, or R would effect sound quality? One that could change the signal, typically in terms of frequency response. Those have to be so large as to be intentional or incompetent. If intentional we are now down to a haphazard EQ effect which varies with which gear it is connected to. Simple method, don't do EQ this way. Connect transparently and if you want EQ do actual controllable EQ. We could go through the process of giving you numbers, but it is a waste of time.

 

As for soundstage, it can only vary if the signal varies. With stereo there are only 2 signals. You can effect it with proper EQ bumps and dips. You can effect it by blending the two channels. You could extract how much stereo info is there by deriving a difference signal between the two channels. Soundstage is a result of differing channel info, FR effects and interactions with speakers and room. There may not be a single number we can put on it. Doesn't make it some mystery that falls between the cracks.

 

It might be implicit in your description, but I'd add phase as an explicit factor.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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It might be implicit in your description, but I'd add phase as an explicit factor.

 

Yes it is implicit.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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You're misrepresenting what I said. My respect for someone does not depend on their education. I do, however, have little respect for people who refuse to accept that scientists and engineers generally know their stuff.

 

Physics is not a matter of opinion.

 

I really can't help but ask: where do you stand on climate change (the other scientific issue that creates about as much hostility on both sides as audiophool cables)? :)

Synology NAS>i7-6700/32GB/NVIDIA QUADRO P4000 Win10>Qobuz+Tidal>Roon>HQPlayer>DSD512> Fiber Switch>Ultrarendu (NAA)>Holo Audio May KTE DAC> Bryston SP3 pre>Levinson No. 432 amps>Magnepan (MG20.1x2, CCR and MMC2x6)

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I really can't help but ask: where do you stand on climate change (the other scientific issue that creates about as much hostility on both sides as audiophool cables)? :)

 

Global warming is indisputable. The causes are probably a combination of natural and man-made.

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Global warming is indisputable. The causes are probably a combination of natural and man-made.

 

I guess it's time to sell my expensive cables. :)

Synology NAS>i7-6700/32GB/NVIDIA QUADRO P4000 Win10>Qobuz+Tidal>Roon>HQPlayer>DSD512> Fiber Switch>Ultrarendu (NAA)>Holo Audio May KTE DAC> Bryston SP3 pre>Levinson No. 432 amps>Magnepan (MG20.1x2, CCR and MMC2x6)

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Give me a holler when you are ready, my ears are tingling and my pockets are full of dough. But I will have to wait a bit because I recently moved my stereo from one wall to another and I need to give my walls and ceiling some time to burn in.

That I ask questions? I am more concerned about being stupid than looking like I might be.

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You're misrepresenting what I said. My respect for someone does not depend on their education. I do, however, have little respect for people who refuse to accept that scientists and engineers generally know their stuff.

 

I don't think that these people refuse to accept that scientists and engineers generally know their stuff. They just believe that all that is known about wire and cable isn't all that there is to know about wire and cable because their ears tell them that different interconnects sound different. You and I might chalk these differences up to expectational and conformational bias, mass hallucination, the placebo effect, and the emperor's new clothes, but buying expensive cables makes these people feel better about their audio systems and they think that their systems sound better with these cables than without them, and as has been pointed out to me many times, this is a hobby, it's not a Mars exploration, it's not the design of a new jumbo jet, it's not a design for a new communications infrastructure. It's OK is these folks want to spend their money this way. I won't. You won't, and I think the purveyors of this stuff are probably cynical crooks who know they are selling snake oil, but unlike the patent medicine salesmen of the 19th century, at least cables don't do any harm except to empty the pocketbooks of those willing to have their pocketbooks emptied.

 

 

Have you ever heard of this thing called hyperbole? You also need to consider the context: sandyk once again referring to his unnamed friends as proof of supernatural phenomena.

 

OK. Well, hyperbole sometimes doesn't translate well into Internet posts. Sorry, if I misunderstood you.

 

Physics is not a matter of opinion.

 

No. Physics is not a matter of opinion. But people who believe in interconnect sound aren't relying on physics for their opinions. They hear what they hear in spite of the scientific evidence that says that interconnects can impart no sound on the signal they are passing unless they have components embodied within them that make them act as filters - something the vast majority do not do (and those that do are no longer interconnects).

George

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If what goes into one end of the cable isn't different than what comes out the other end, the cable has no effect on SQ or soundstage. Because the signal hasn't been altered. If two different cables both manage to pass the signal without altering it again neither will alter sound quality.

 

Yes, that is axiomatic. However, many who post here believe that no two disparate cables do pass an audio signal unaltered. They believe that current physics just doesn't know what is being altered or how it is being altered. And some here seem to believe that the tiny fractions of a dB that different LRC values impart on different cable constructions are actually audible.

George

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In my home, if you place a cable in the vicinity of my workstation and 4K monitor you can get a very audible increase in hum -- the increase varies from cable to cable -- have to assume it's related to shielding.

 

This is interesting.

 

I don't have my PC anywhere near my HiFi gear but after reading a lot about not running power cables and interconnects/speaker cables parallel etc, I wondered if I was experiencing any negative effect that I just didn't recognise? I decided to clean up the mess behind my setup which apart from my 2 channel gear includes an LED TV, cable TV box, AVR & blu ray player. There were obvious instances of power & analog cables running parallel so I spent hours re-routing cables and creating gizmos to make sure that there was decent separation, especially between power and analog/digital.

 

The end result - absolutely no difference in SQ. So I guess this is due to one of 3 reasons:

 

 

  1. My cables have great shielding
  2. I am just lucky
  3. I am partially deaf ;)

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