Those who own Audioquest cable...what do you think?

[Teresa]

…If listening is for differences is such a chore, you may be in the wrong hobby.

 

I also find listening evaluations a strenuous, tedious activity. I hate comparing stuff with a purple passion, however I'm not willing to give up enjoying the music I love because of it.

 

When I find it necessary to add something new to my audio/video system, I listen long-term, at least several weeks, using lots of different kinds of music. Once I decide I like or dislike whatever the change is I can go back to listening for enjoyment. This is one reason I generally don’t replace anything audio related until it dies or becomes too expensive to repair. I almost never replace something I like, thus I will likely keep all my cables until I die.

[semente]

I also find listening evaluations a strenuous, tedious activity. I hate comparing stuff with a purple passion, however I'm not willing to give up enjoying the music I love because of it.

 

When I find it necessary to add something new to my audio/video system, I listen long-term, at least several weeks, using lots of different kinds of music. Once I decide I like or dislike whatever the change is I can go back to listening for enjoyment. This is one reason I generally don’t replace anything audio related until it dies or becomes too expensive to repair. I almost never replace something I like, thus I will likely keep all my cables until I die.

 

My philosophy is not too far from yours although I do try do improve the performance of the system from time to time, usually as budget allows, but only if I can determine what is wrong with the current equipment and I am reasonably confident that the replacement will be an improvement.

 

But I have moved abroad about 18 months ago and the only thing I brought with me was the amplifier and some wire that I use as cable.

I was forced to sell a pair of speakers that I liked and to rip all my CD while leaving them back with a very good CD player.

It was a difficult new start: new room, new source (a temporary budget D/AC), new speakers.

 

The first pair was speakers was a mistake but my current pair is really quite good, and managed to improve on some of the shortcomings of the speakers that I had before moving whilst performing worse in some other aspects which are perhaps in the current room not as taxing.

I intend to upgrade them in the future but I can enjoy my music despite the limitations; I am quite demanding by my audiophile cravings don't

 

Since the evolution of my current file transport system has reached a reasonably high plateau of performance the next logical step is to replace the D/AC.

For the past 8 years I have been using a very high performance custom-made amplifier and a modified and much improved CD player (the price/performance ratio for both items is unbeatable).

I have listened to the filterless PCM-only D/AC designed and built by the same craftsman and will soon listen to his Sabre DSD-able prototype.

The performance and listening impressions will determine which one I will keep, although I am currently torn between the getting the more affordable PCM-only or stretching the budget a bit further and get the DSD-able model.

 

From what I have read here and according to Miska's opinion it looks as though I can get better performance and sound from converting my Redbook music library to DSD during playback...

 

 

As for cables, I will only improve on what I'm currently using if I see evidence that there are better construction/topology architectures; and only if they can be had cheap from retailers or, even better, DIY-able.

Audio cables are the least of my worries (I don't care about power cables at all).

 

R

[Jud]

Sal and Dennis (esldude): Glad to see you agree with what I've been saying for a couple of pages now, and that you, too, have experienced it or heard it in others' systems: A factor like shielding can make a significant difference in the sound of a cable, depending on the location and system it's in. (By the way, though I agree with both of you that the cables with the ribbon conductors should be vulnerable to induced hum, in my situation with the particular location of the cables when the hum occurred, and the nature of the hum, I'm pretty sure it was a good ol' ground hum. )

[semente]

I don't think this was the case. They performed with no problem at all (and continue to do so) everywhere else I've had them in my system; it was on that basis I decided to try them with my newly purchased turntable.

 

 

 

The ones with which I experienced a ground hum are an older version of these:

 

Clearview Ultrathin Digital Ribbon Interconnect with PLUS Upgrade-shop.mapleshadestore.com

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24445[/ATTACH]

 

Hi Jud,

 

My knowledge is limited but I have the impression that if the live and ground conductors are not at a constant distance throat the length of the conductor you will get a ground loop...

 

Could this be the cause of that hum?

 

 

The ones I replaced those with are much older (~25 years), from Omega Mikro, the higher end cable side of Mapleshade. Their construction uses a hair thin center conductor inside a thin metal tube shield. From an old review:

 

 

 

Here's a photo showing them in a system (not mine) - sorry the photo is rather small:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24446[/ATTACH]

 

 

I have trouble accepting that the condutor is only 56-gauge/0.01249mm thick... Are you sure of this?

That's very thin.

 

My curent DIY IC is made of Ø=0.40mm single solid core copper, PTFE insulated, wires with 10mm spacing between them that came from an Ethernet cable.

Only one of the conductors has a ground wire (the grounds of the sockets are soldered together), so in total I have 3 wires in my IC.

 

R

[Jud]

Hi Jud,

 

My knowledge is limited but I have the impression that if the live and ground conductors are not at a constant distance throat the length of the conductor you will get a ground loop...

 

Could this be the cause of that hum?

 

I have trouble accepting that the condutor is only 56-gauge/0.01249mm thick... Are you sure of this?

That's very thin.

 

R

 

Hi Ricardo.

 

As you can probably tell from the picture, it's pretty much impossible to keep those conductors equally spaced through their entire length. Nevertheless, I've had no problem with them in various other parts of my system over the 15-18 years I've had them. And I have cables with the identical construction several other places in my systems causing no problem (DAC to pre, pre to amp, coax connection from HDMI hub to DAC, DAC to pre in the upstairs desktop system, probably other places I'm not thinking of at the moment).

 

I can tell you the conductor in the older cable is indeed that thin. After I'd had it 15 years or so, I flexed one of the terminations one too many times and the connector came off the end. There indeed was the hair-thin connector. By the way, the ribbons are extremely thin as well, more on the order of metal leaf than foil.

[CR250]

You really need to up your game there CR250. What a wretched example.

 

You may be right. I was aiming for ridiculous, not wretched.

[CR250]

I also find listening evaluations a strenuous, tedious activity. I hate comparing stuff with a purple passion, however I'm not willing to give up enjoying the music I love because of it.

 

When I find it necessary to add something new to my audio/video system, I listen long-term, at least several weeks, using lots of different kinds of music. Once I decide I like or dislike whatever the change is I can go back to listening for enjoyment. This is one reason I generally don’t replace anything audio related until it dies or becomes too expensive to repair. I almost never replace something I like, thus I will likely keep all my cables until I die.

 

That response was meant to be directed at only the person I quoted. If you re read his entire statement, his whole process doesn't allow for success. He doesn't like to critically listen, so he looks for specs that won't help him, so he ends up buying cheap stuff based on guesses and not reality. Given that, my comment was literal. If every aspect is approached from a point of negativity, audio ceases to become an enjoyable hobby. Its just not for everyone.

 

If he were to say something like, I'm confused and I'm not sure if I can hear differences between cables, so I'm going to hold off buying anything expensive until that changes, that's another matter. We've all been there and its completely reasonable to not buy something if you don't see the value.

[semente]

That response was meant to be directed at only the person I quoted. If you re read his entire statement, his whole process doesn't allow for success. He doesn't like to critically listen, so he looks for specs that won't help him, so he ends up buying cheap stuff based on guesses and not reality. Given that, my comment was literal. If every aspect is approached from a point of negativity, audio ceases to become an enjoyable hobby. Its just not for everyone.

 

If he were to say something like, I'm confused and I'm not sure if I can hear differences between cables, so I'm going to hold off buying anything expensive until that changes, that's another matter. We've all been there and its completely reasonable to not buy something if you don't see the value.

 

You are wrong.

For one, I don't look for specs but measurements - some of them actually correlate with sound.

And I do listening evaluations whenever is possible...but I don't enjoy it.

I buy according to my budget, and according to how much a particular part of the chain (equipment or accessory) will affect the signal.

I also try to understand what technical causes are responsible for differences in sound or shortcomings in performance.

 

R

[CR250]

"For one, I don't look for specs but measurements - some of them actually correlate with sound."

 

This is a discussion on cables. I didn't mean to imply my comments were for other types of components.

[Sal1950]

Sal and Dennis (esldude): Glad to see you agree with what I've been saying for a couple of pages now, and that you, too, have experienced it or heard it in others' systems: A factor like shielding can make a significant difference in the sound of a cable, depending on the location and system it's in. (By the way, though I agree with both of you that the cables with the ribbon conductors should be vulnerable to induced hum, in my situation with the particular location of the cables when the hum occurred, and the nature of the hum, I'm pretty sure it was a good ol' ground hum. )

 

Oh yes, that was a hard $ lesson I learned long ago. A more expensive cable won't get you better sound than any properly designed cable, but it may buy you worse. Contrary to Kimber's marketing spins, the advertisement influenced glowing reviews in Stereophile, TAS, etc; their cables proved to be of poor design. I believe if you ask any honest EE, he would have told us that unshielded cables are a bad idea and would definitely cause problems in some installations. You can blame your hum on ground loop or induced hum but in any case that unshielded ribbon cable also proved itself to be a poorly designed cable. When replaced with a more conventional shielded design the hum went bye bye. So yep poorly designed cables can definitely sound different, as will cables whose LCR characteristics are incorrect for their intended use.

I could go on with stories of some Esoteric Design cables I got to replace the PBJs, but that's just more bad news with expensive cables that would waste space here, but only once more reinforced my education.

So in the end I stand behind what I have said for many years now, all PROPERLY DESIGNED cables will sound the same. That "properly designed thing" is the part of our beliefs that you are choosing to ignore.

[semente]

It seems, though, from this conversation that we don't yet know what 'properly designed' means in relation to cables... At least not everyone agrees that it's all down to LCR.

 

R

[Sal1950]

It seems, though, from this conversation that we don't yet know what 'properly designed' means in relation to cables... At least not everyone agrees that it's all down to LCR.

 

R

I believe the LCR qualifier is mainly used in discussing speaker cable thou it is a factor in all cabling.

I fell into the trap of believing marketing spin as many audiophiles are still vulnerable to today. I had a little prior knowledge from working with RF cables that made me scratch my head at the time, (humm this don't sound right), I really shoud have known better, but I fell for the lies and spin. I believe any honest engineer would agree that a unshielded interconnect is a poor design and there are some things you wouldn't think you have to qualify on top of LCR, there are some things you think would just be common sense but obviously not. Folks like Jud with much more education in the field than me fell for the ribbon cable spin too. Try using that for a 10 meter transceiver antenna connect and see how it works for ya. LOL

[gmgraves]

It seems, though, from this conversation that we don't yet know what 'properly designed' means in relation to cables... At least not everyone agrees that it's all down to LCR.

 

R

 

 

If we assume that interconnects do have a sound, then we must also assume that we don't know why. Even the manufacturers don't know why, which means, quite literally, that by definition, the manufacturers don't know what they're doing. They're just stumbling around in the dark which is an interesting engineering model, not to mention business model! How's this for a possible analogy: "We don't why airplanes fly, we just keep trying different things until we find a design that works."

 

Well, here's the problem with LRC. The effect that X_l and Xc have on conductors is very well characterized from over a hundred years of applied science. We can calculate and measure exactly how much of both a length of cable will have, and we can also calculate and measure how those characteristics will affect any frequency that we wish to pass through that length of cable. It is not possible that a measurement and a calculation will tell us that a certain interconnect cable will attenuate 20 KHz by 0.02 dB (which nobody can hear) relative to 1 Khz, and for the reality to be closer to 2 dB (which might be audible to some). Anyone who thinks that something like this is going on, is simply grasping at illusionary straws or simply doesn't know what they're talking about. The amounts of any of these three characteristics in any length of audio interconnect is simply too microscopic to affect any audio cable in any way. It ain't possible, McGee!

 

That being the case, the explanation for any change in sound caused by an interconnect cable must lie elsewhere. It simply cannot have anything at all to do with LRC cause there essentially, isn't any.

[sandyk]

George

Why do you keep bashing the LCR aspect in what comes across as an effort to prove that people are hearing something imaginary, while only paying lip service to the far more important RF/EMI rejection aspect, and the interaction of the cable with the source's output stage especially ?

This thread should have died long ago except for the efforts of a few members who take great delight in trying to put down all subjective reports !

 

[gmgraves]

Oh yes, that was a hard $ lesson I learned long ago. A more expensive cable won't get you better sound than any properly designed cable, but it may buy you worse. Contrary to Kimber's marketing spins, the advertisement influenced glowing reviews in Stereophile, TAS, etc; their cables proved to be of poor design. I believe if you ask any honest EE, he would have told us that unshielded cables are a bad idea and would definitely cause problems in some installations. You can blame your hum on ground loop or induced hum but in any case that unshielded ribbon cable also proved itself to be a poorly designed cable. When replaced with a more conventional shielded design the hum went bye bye. So yep poorly designed cables can definitely sound different, as will cables whose LCR characteristics are incorrect for their intended use.

I could go on with stories of some Esoteric Design cables I got to replace the PBJs, but that's just more bad news with expensive cables that would waste space here, but only once more reinforced my education.

So in the end I stand behind what I have said for many years now, all PROPERLY DESIGNED cables will sound the same. That "properly designed thing" is the part of our beliefs that you are choosing to ignore.

 

 

Here's a story. An audiophile friend of mine from Olympia Washington, has a local audio buddy who is rather well off (both are Psychologists). My friend's friend is a dyed-in-the-wool believer in interconnect sound and a rabid audiophile. One weekend, my friend's buddy asked him to look after his dog while he was out of town for a few days (apparently my friend always takes care of this widower's dog when he is out of town). The buddy had just bough a pair of Nordost Valhalla 2 interconnects to go between his Pass preamp and his Pass power amps and was bragging for all to hear about what an incredible difference it made to the sound of his system. My friend thought it was a bunch of hooey, and so, while the guy was out of town, he exchanged the Nordost for a pair of RG59U audio cables from MyCableMart.com (~$6). The guy never noticed! About a month later, the guy in question had to go out of town again for a couple of days, and my friend, again, engaged in feeding the dog, swapped the Nordost back. The guy didn't notice that swap either.... Interesting story but merely anecdotal, of course.

[Allan F]

... Interesting story but merely anecdotal, of course.

An 'interesting' story that is most likely made up and offered by one similar to certain proselytizing members of this forum with a particularly rigid point of view.

[Jud]

I believe the LCR qualifier is mainly used in discussing speaker cable thou it is a factor in all cabling.

I fell into the trap of believing marketing spin as many audiophiles are still vulnerable to today. I had a little prior knowledge from working with RF cables that made me scratch my head at the time, (humm this don't sound right), I really shoud have known better, but I fell for the lies and spin. I believe any honest engineer would agree that a unshielded interconnect is a poor design and there are some things you wouldn't think you have to qualify on top of LCR, there are some things you think would just be common sense but obviously not. Folks like Jud with much more education in the field than me fell for the ribbon cable spin too. Try using that for a 10 meter transceiver antenna connect and see how it works for ya. LOL

 

I'm using 8 foot ribbons for my speaker cables. Like 'em better than shielded Audioquest they replaced.

 

And Sal, did you miss the part where I have those unshielded ribbons all over the rest of my system, including pre to amp (i.e., right behind the amp's big transformer), where they're doing just fine?

 

By the way, I had ground hum problems with a previous turntable at one time with shielded phono cable. Turntables are often subject to ground loops because they offer multiple grounds (cartridge, chassis, ground screw from chassis to pre or other system ground, possibly power cable or power strip... ).

 

So the cable isn't detective, it simply had a different ground potential than the one I replaced it with.

[semente]

George

Why do you keep bashing the LCR aspect in what comes across as an effort to prove that people are hearing something imaginary, while only paying lip service to the far more important RF/EMI rejection aspect, and the interaction of the cable with the source's output stage especially ?

 

Has any research been made about the importance of RF/EMI rejection in a 20 or 50cm interconnect?

 

I'm not overly confident of my assessments with cables but when comparing shielded vs. unshielded I preferred the latter.

 

My current ICs are just three parallel conductors floating in space...

 

R

[Sal1950]

Here's a story. An audiophile friend of mine from Olympia Washington, has a local audio buddy who is rather well off (both are Psychologists). My friend's friend is a dyed-in-the-wool believer in interconnect sound and a rabid audiophile. One weekend, my friend's buddy asked him to look after his dog while he was out of town for a few days (apparently my friend always takes care of this widower's dog when he is out of town). The buddy had just bough a pair of Nordost Valhalla 2 interconnects to go between his Pass preamp and his Pass power amps and was bragging for all to hear about what an incredible difference it made to the sound of his system. My friend thought it was a bunch of hooey, and so, while the guy was out of town, he exchanged the Nordost for a pair of RG59U audio cables from MyCableMart.com (~$6). The guy never noticed! About a month later, the guy in question had to go out of town again for a couple of days, and my friend, again, engaged in feeding the dog, swapped the Nordost back. The guy didn't notice that swap either.... Interesting story but merely anecdotal, of course.

I love your story George, please tell us another.

[Sal1950]

I'm using 8 foot ribbons for my speaker cables. Like 'em better than shielded Audioquest they replaced.

 

And Sal, did you miss the part where I have those unshielded ribbons all over the rest of my system, including pre to amp (i.e., right behind the amp's big transformer), where they're doing just fine?

 

By the way, I had ground hum problems with a previous turntable at one time with shielded phono cable. Turntables are often subject to ground loops because they offer multiple grounds (cartridge, chassis, ground screw from chassis to pre or other system ground, possibly power cable or power strip... ).

 

So the cable isn't detective, it simply had a different ground potential than the one I replaced it with.

 

It's your money my friend and your free to waste it in any way you choose.

What ever make you happy tickles me to death. LOL

[Sal1950]

My current ICs are just three parallel conductors floating in space...

 

R

 

R, Where did you come up with that idea? OMG your killing me..

[CR250]

It seems, though, from this conversation that we don't yet know what 'properly designed' means in relation to cables... At least not everyone agrees that it's all down to LCR.

 

R

 

I know why you would say that, but I don't think its entirely true. On a basic level, if a cable is working properly and passes the signal, then by definition, its properly designed. Where I think some people are getting hung up on the issue, is when they try to figure out what the best design is on paper, but don't get the results they expect, in actual use. There are so many variables at play, there is no best design. So 2 cables that have very different design characteristics can both be designed properly. I could get good results with a pair of cables, you may hate them in your system and a 3rd person may hear no difference at all. Regardless of whatever science is at play, that's just the way it goes. And because of this, the only way to reliably tell if a cable will work for you, is to try it in your system. I believe that you're most likely right in stating that we don't yet know everything there is to know about cable design. Until we do, listening is the best option.

[Jud]

It's your money my friend and your free to waste it in any way you choose.

What ever make you happy tickles me to death. LOL

 

[Allan F]

I'm not overly confident of my assessments with cables but when comparing shielded vs. unshielded I preferred the latter.

While you may have preferred the particular unshielded cables you had in your system, extending that generally to shielded vs unshielded cables is not justified. In more cases than not, the opposite would likely be true.

[gmgraves]

George

Why do you keep bashing the LCR aspect in what comes across as an effort to prove that people are hearing something imaginary, while only paying lip service to the far more important RF/EMI rejection aspect, and the interaction of the cable with the source's output stage especially ?

This thread should have died long ago except for the efforts of a few members who take great delight in trying to put down all subjective reports !

 

 

1) I'm not saying that you and others don't hear differences in cables.

 

2) I'm not saying that the differences you hear aren't real. It's very possible that they are.

 

3) I am saying that those differences cannot possibly be the result of the X_c and X_l and the R of the cable. This is the only point I'm trying to get across.

 

4) I am saying that if interconnect sound does exist, it's due to some other, unknown factor.

 

I'm not bashing anything but people keep bringing-up this LRC thing when it's tantamount to saying that since chlorine bleach is poisonous, an eyedropper drop of bleach in a a gallon of water will kill someone. It's about that level of scale.