Those who own Audioquest cable...what do you think?

[jabbr]

The weakest link is by far, by a huge margin, by at least a couple orders of magnitude the speakers and room. Stop looking for cables that can alter the sound. Other than speaker cables and phono cables from a cartridge they don't have an effect on sound. And the effect those exceptions have are.......yes................LCR effects and nothing exotic. If they somehow have an effect unaccounted for it will be of such supremely minor size as to be beyond trivial compared to anything else you can do like move yourself or your speaker a 1/4 inch.

 

Again, LCR is a first approximation but doesn't describe nonlinear effects ... if the world were linear you would have a much easier time understanding it....

 

But transfer function/impulse response/ room correction is all part of the same analysis.

[esldude]

So does this include being able to stop a honkin' big ground hum by switching one pair of a particular manufacturer's cables for a different pair of cables from the same manufacturer? (Same length, same general design philosophy, different implementation.) Yes, they were from my turntable, though the connection at the 'table was RCA rather than DIN.

 

Sounds like a defective cable to me. What were the differences in the cable construction?

[esldude]

 

But since so many people say that cables affect sound quality, I believe that some effort should be made to create measurements that might help determine what differences in performance are responsible for those effects.

 

R

 

There are none. Those differences are humans with brains which can be and are effected by other things. The same signal sounds different. You can't measure what isn't there in the cable itself.

[esldude]

I agree with all that.

I've bought 3 interconnects and 5 speaker cables of different topology in 25 years, and none of them cost more than a couple of CDs.

If anything I could be looking for cables that can't alter sound.

For now I am only interested in understanding why according to many people competent cables affect sound but none of the existing measurements is able to describe why...

 

R

 

Because of human susceptibility to expectation bias. A human tendency for our brains to pattern match for change. Leading us to hear a difference when there isn't one. You aren't going to get anywhere looking for what isn't in the cable. Obviously I am one who does not believe competent cables sound different.

[semente]

I am generally very sceptic, though hardly as much as you are, and didn't really expect to hear any differences in Mario's format comparison files and despite this, and much to my surprise, I was able to nail down what distinguished the 16/44.1 from 16/96 and 24/44.1 from 24/96.

 

It's because I find listening evaluations a strenuous, tedious activity that some measurements would be helpful in the case of cables; I think they'd help me to choose one topology over another.

Cables are not a priority for my system, though, and even when the time comes the slice of budget to be allocated will always be tiny.

 

R

[Allan F]

It's because I find listening evaluations a strenuous, tedious activity that some measurements would be helpful in the case of cables; I think they'd help me to choose one topology over another.

While critical listening to evaluate SQ of any audio gear may well be a strenuous, tedious activity, measurements don't tell the whole story and will never be a substitute. The best equipment designers use measurements, of course, but virtually all of them make final design decisions, e.g. choice of components, etc., based on actual listening.

[sandyk]

Are measurements of these parameters normally provided, e.g., on web pages at which a capacitor is displayed for sale, or at the manufacturer's web site?

 

 

 

Would you say the parameters you mention above, plus noise behavior, describe the sound quality of a capacitor to the exclusion of any other properties?

 

Hi Jud

Some of the better Capacitor Manufacturers even specify the Slew Rate of their larger capacitors for use in the main filter capacitor area of the PSU. The choice of electrolyte and other construction measures also influences the actual sound. Many series of capacitors from the various manufacturers

have a "House" sound, and they can even design in desirable properties such as a little added warmth in the mid range .

The Elna Starget capacitors, as an example, even when using a value as low as 100uF near a voltage regulator I.C, add a little extra warmth. Alex C continues to supply special capacitors from back in his Hovland days that have a well earned reputation for their sonic qualities. Ask Alex C for further info if you are interested in this subject.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

[semente]

While critical listening to evaluate SQ of cables or other gear may wll be a strenuous, tedious activity, measurements don't tell the whole story and will never be a substitute. The best equipment designers use measurements, of course, but virtually all of them make final design decisions, e.g. choice of components, etc., based on listening.

 

I have found that some measurements have a rough but informative correlation with my listening impressions and use them for shortlisting purposes but they will not supersede listening; for the two are complementary tools for assessing performance (I tend to focus on sound when listening critically, which is one of the reason why I find it boring).

 

R

[semente]

Hi Jud

Some of the better Capacitor Manufacturers even specify the Slew Rate of their larger capacitors for use in the main filter capacitor area of the PSU. The choice of electrolyte and other construction measures also influences the actual sound. Many series of capacitors from the various manufacturers

have a "House" sound, and they can even design in desirable properties such as a little added warmth in the mid range .

The Elna Starget capacitors, as an example, even when using a value as low as 100uF near a voltage regulator I.C, add a little extra warmth. Alex C continues to supply special capacitors from back in his Hovland days that have a well earned reputation for their sonic qualities. Ask Alex C for further info if you are interested in this subject.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

Jean Hiraga wrote a few articles for L'Audiophile about the influence of electronic components in sound:

 

Les composants passifs : leur influence sur le son.

 

R

[gmgraves]

I'm not asking about simple cables. You, apparently emphatically, agree that capacitors et al. have sonic signatures. What is the basis for those? LRC ... certainly not C because that's the value of the cap itself, so it's R or L? Do those solely determine the signature of the cap?

 

Sorry, I thought you were talking about the LRC in cables. The "sonic signature" of caps has to do, in part, with the cap material's dielectric absorption characteristics. For instance, you wouldn't want to design tantalum capacitors into your audio signal chain because they distort - aluminum electrolytics aren't much better. The dielectric material of choice, these days, in high-end gear, for capacitors in the audio signal path, is polypropylene. Resistors cause thermal noise. film resistors are the quietest, the old carbon composition resistors are the noisiest, but wire-wound can be noisy too. Inductors, can act like antennas and pick-up interference when used in certain circuit locations. And of course, all exhibit stray amounts off all three (LRC); although, usually in minute amounts that really aren't important. Power Supply electrolytic caps can act as resistors and sometimes that has to be factored into the design, but these tertiary characteristics are well known and usually spec'd on the makers specification sheet for the part.

 

 

Since I am simply posing questions they can't be right or wrong -- they are questions. Is the sonic signature 100% dependent on LRC?

 

They are dependent on issues that accompany their tasks as capacitors, resistors, and inductors, but aren't related directly to the fact that they are capacitors, inductors and resistors.

 

It happens to be relevant to the discussion if you will pause and answer the questions if you can.

 

Glad to add what I can to the discussion.

[PopPop]

First let me say that I am not a cable addict, but I am not necessarily a nay-sayer in all cases.

Despite all that we know about chemistry, the placebo affect has a real and beneficial effect on the health of some people in drug tests. So, why, despite all we know about electrical theory do we have to suspend belief that expectation bias doesn't create the same real and beneficial effect on some music listeners?

[CR250]

"It's because I find listening evaluations a strenuous, tedious activity that some measurements would be helpful in the case of cables; I think they'd help me to choose one topology over another. Cables are not a priority for my system, though, and even when the time comes the slice of budget to be allocated will always be tiny."

 

Read that again and ask yourself if that makes sense. If you can't hear a difference, why would you trust some type of measurements? And even if you have some measurements to go on, how sure are you that you would be measuring the right things? If listening is for differences is such a chore, you may be in the wrong hobby.

 

If you want the facts on cables here they are. Cables do make a difference, in spite of what some people insist. Its one thing to sit around and conduct thought experiments on how you can argue a position in an internet chat room, as opposed to knowing something from dealing with it in reality. So then, should you buy expensive cables? The answer is simple. Results are not always consistent, so if you listen to a cable and can hear a difference you think improves the sound of your system, consider the cost. If you judge the increase in SQ to be worth the price of the cable, buy it. If you can't hear a difference, or don't see the value, don't buy the cable. It would be foolish to do so. Just make a decision and move on. There's more to life than cables.

[PopPop]

There's more to life than cables.

 

Cherry pie

 

Single Malt Scotch

 

Mozart, in any format.

[jabbr]

Sorry, I thought you were talking about the LRC in cables. The "sonic signature" of caps has to do, in part, with the cap material's dielectric absorption characteristics. For instance, you wouldn't want to design tantalum capacitors into your audio signal chain because they distort - aluminum electrolytics aren't much better. The dielectric material of choice, these days, in high-end gear, for capacitors in the audio signal path, is polypropylene. Resistors cause thermal noise. film resistors are the quietest, the old carbon composition resistors are the noisiest, but wire-wound can be noisy too. Inductors, can act like antennas and pick-up interference when used in certain circuit locations. And of course, all exhibit stray amounts off all three (LRC); although, usually in minute amounts that really aren't important. Power Supply electrolytic caps can act as resistors and sometimes that has to be factored into the design, but these tertiary characteristics are well known and usually spec'd on the makers specification sheet for the part.

 

 

 

 

They are dependent on issues that accompany their tasks as capacitors, resistors, and inductors, but aren't related directly to the fact that they are capacitors, inductors and resistors.

 

 

 

Glad to add what I can to the discussion.

 

Right, so:

 

1) dielectric effects

2) thermal noise

3) antennae effects

 

among others, can affect sonic signature of passive components.

[Jud]

Hi Jud

Some of the better Capacitor Manufacturers even specify the Slew Rate of their larger capacitors for use in the main filter capacitor area of the PSU. The choice of electrolyte and other construction measures also influences the actual sound. Many series of capacitors from the various manufacturers

have a "House" sound, and they can even design in desirable properties such as a little added warmth in the mid range .

The Elna Starget capacitors, as an example, even when using a value as low as 100uF near a voltage regulator I.C, add a little extra warmth. Alex C continues to supply special capacitors from back in his Hovland days that have a well earned reputation for their sonic qualities. Ask Alex C for further info if you are interested in this subject.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

Oh, I'm quite familiar with Alex's caps. In fact it was my experience with them (and identically spec'd caps from another manufacturer) I was thinking of when I raised the sound of capacitors in this thread.

 

I think you may enjoy reading the linked page about that experience, Alex, if you haven't been there already (if you have I'm sure you'll remember quickly): Semi-Customized DAC, Part V: Rollin', rollin', rollin'... - Blogs - Computer Audiophile

[Jud]

Sounds like a defective cable to me.

 

I don't think this was the case. They performed with no problem at all (and continue to do so) everywhere else I've had them in my system; it was on that basis I decided to try them with my newly purchased turntable.

 

What were the differences in the cable construction?

 

The ones with which I experienced a ground hum are an older version of these:

 

Clearview Ultrathin Digital Ribbon Interconnect with PLUS Upgrade-shop.mapleshadestore.com

 

 

The ones I replaced those with are much older (~25 years), from Omega Mikro, the higher end cable side of Mapleshade. Their construction uses a hair thin center conductor inside a thin metal tube shield. From an old review:

 

The Ebony interconnect is equally bizarre. It consists of a solitary 56-gauge copper conductor inside a narrow silver tube, with the hot and return legs physically separated inside their own tubes. Stare inside the custom RCA jack. The space between the central prong and cuff is empty. Where'd the conductor go? Relax. The wire is simply too thin to be seen with the naked eye.

 

Here's a photo showing them in a system (not mine) - sorry the photo is rather small:

 

[sandyk]

Hi Jud

No., I hadn't read that as I normally stay well clear of reading Blogs from most members.

Your results do not surprise me in the least, as I have also heard obvious sound stage differences between generic Polypropylene capacitors and the better types from Soundlabs (Au.) etc.

That's why my own Class A Preamp and P.A. are direct coupled, without a capacitor in the NFB area either, and use D.C. Offset Correctors.

I would also use more naked bulk metal film resistors if they weren't so damn expensive.

Not only are they available in closer tolerances, but they are quieter in comparison with normal 1% metal film resistors too.

Kind Regards

Alex

[jabbr]

Several links which discuss non-linearities in resistors. Third harmonic distortion is a common finding. Needless to say, simplicity is a simplification

 

https://www.digikey.com/Web%20Export/Supplier%20Content/tt-electronics-welwyn-985/pdf/tt-electronics-thi-report.pdf?redirected=1

http://www.danbridge.com/Files/filelement30.pdf

How can a resistor "sound" good? - diyAudio

http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/design-note/dn502f.pdf

https://www.ieee.li/pdf/essay/basics_of_linear_fixed_resistors.pdf

[Sal1950]

So does this include being able to stop a honkin' big ground hum by switching one pair of a particular manufacturer's cables for a different pair of cables from the same manufacturer? (Same length, same general design philosophy, different implementation.) Yes, they were from my turntable, though the connection at the 'table was RCA rather than DIN.

Ground hum or induced hum? I had the same issue with Kimber PBJ cables years ago due to their lack of proper shielding. Running them anywhere close to my VTL monoblocks would pick up a good hum field. From the looks of the picture you put up that cable design doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy for their shielding design either.

[Sal1950]

Because of human susceptibility to expectation bias. A human tendency for our brains to pattern match for change. Leading us to hear a difference when there isn't one. You aren't going to get anywhere looking for what isn't in the cable. Obviously I am one who does not believe competent cables sound different.

I'm with you on the issue 110%..

[CR250]

First let me say that I am not a cable addict, but I am not necessarily a nay-sayer in all cases.

Despite all that we know about chemistry, the placebo affect has a real and beneficial effect on the health of some people in drug tests. So, why, despite all we know about electrical theory do we have to suspend belief that expectation bias doesn't create the same real and beneficial effect on some music listeners?

 

You have a friend that owns a blue car and is on their way over to your house. He didn't tell you that he bought a red car. When he pulls in your driveway, expectation bias would imply that you would see a blue car, and not a red one. If he tells you that his car is actually red, do you believe him? Or do you need scientific proof and compare the cars paint to a color wheel? (I'm assuming that color blindness isn't a factor)

[plissken]

the placebo affect has a real and beneficial effect on the health of some people in drug tests.

 

Actually the placebo does absolutely nothing. All that tells practitioners is to look for other data.

[PopPop]

You missed the point. It's the brain that creates the healing.

[esldude]

I don't think this was the case. They performed with no problem at all (and continue to do so) everywhere else I've had them in my system; it was on that basis I decided to try them with my newly purchased turntable.

 

 

 

The ones with which I experienced a ground hum are an older version of these:

 

Clearview Ultrathin Digital Ribbon Interconnect with PLUS Upgrade-shop.mapleshadestore.com

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24445[/ATTACH]

 

The ones I replaced those with are much older (~25 years), from Omega Mikro, the higher end cable side of Mapleshade. Their construction uses a hair thin center conductor inside a thin metal tube shield. From an old review:

 

 

 

Here's a photo showing them in a system (not mine) - sorry the photo is rather small:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24446[/ATTACH]

 

That all fits with my previous description. The cable will not effect the signal. The cable may be effected by noise or other interference. Shielding is apparently what was lacking in a place where you needed it. When you earlier said you replaced it with a cable with similar design ideas I assumed it was similar. Now one cable you show isn't twisted and had no shielding. If you ask me that is defective design. The other is a grounded tube with a center conductor. Nothing really similar about those.

 

Once went to a friend's house where he had gotten new interconnect for his amps. I think he was using 15 ft IC's as his amps were mono. He was dealing with a hum problem. I think it was Nordost though it could have been something else. It was $2k or more. I looked at it, a ribbon design. Asked about his AV system. Took some long regular IC's that looked to be RG6. Popped them in and quiet as can be with no hum. He had a look on his face I won't forget. Several times that afternoon he kept trying to find a solution that let him use his 'good' cables rather than the ones I plugged in.

[esldude]

You have a friend that owns a blue car and is on their way over to your house. He didn't tell you that he bought a red car. When he pulls in your driveway, expectation bias would imply that you would see a blue car, and not a red one. If he tells you that his car is actually red, do you believe him? Or do you need scientific proof and compare the cars paint to a color wheel? (I'm assuming that color blindness isn't a factor)

 

You really need to up your game there CR250. What a wretched example. In fact, your friend might pull up in the new color car and you would only know who it was when you see and recognize your friend rather than his car. You would not at that point see the wrong color, you would ask about his new car. And for a moment before seeing your friend is in the car, yes your expectation bias would prevent you from realizing it was your friend.