CA Readers Are, "clueless, equally bitter and uninformed"

[gmgraves]

Hi David,

 

I'd like to address two points from your post where my experience says otherwise.

 

 

 

In some areas, definitely, such as signal-to-noise ratio, interchannel separation, low frequency response, etc.

But in my opinion, there are some quite significant areas where vinyl exposes the weaknesses of CD. Prime among these for me, is dynamic range. All too often, the signal-to-noise ratio is taken to be synonymous with dynamic range. While it may be so theoretically (difference between the noise floor and maximum level being the dynamic range), in practice it doesn't work out that way.

 

What I'm referring to specifically is the steep rise in distortion with diminishing signal level. Low-level sounds on CD are effectively represented by considerably fewer than 16 bits and the loss of information is, to my ears, quite significant where such does not occur with decent vinyl. Instrumental harmonics that are rich on vinyl become threadbare and "bleached" at low levels on CD. Spatial cues too get lost at low levels. Reverb tails tend to curve steeply downward in level toward their ends.

Yes dither helps with all of this a little but in my experience it is very little indeed.

 

So while the CD may *appear* to be able to present music all the way down to -96 dbFS (or with dither, perhaps -91 or -92), in fact, the distortion starts to become audible (for some folks, turning cellos into kazoos) at much higher levels, in my opinion making CDs *real* dynamic range effectively only about half (or perhaps more realistically a third) of its signal-to-noise ratio.

 

 

 

I don't know if you've cut any lacquers for vinyl. I have. And without compression. Just because a great many vinyl mastering engineers use dynamic compression (remember loudness pleases many of their clients), this should in no way whatsoever be confused with "has to be" because that is simply not true. If one accepts the playback volume control as the optimal way to adjust playback level (I do) then it is quite possible to cut lacquers for vinyl with no compression at all.

 

This is similar to what I've heard from a number of musicians and semi-pro recordists: that they *have* to EQ and they *have* to use compression in their recordings and mixes and mastering sessions. What I tell them all (and have shown to a great many) is that one must ask oneself what was done wrong in a prior step that they believe will be remedied by applying such a process and what they believe the application of the process will truly achieve (and at what sonic cost).

I know that many recordings *need* some EQ but they wouldn't if a better job was done earlier in the process.

 

***

 

All the talk about colorations of vinyl being what folks like about it misses the point that copying a master to vinyl will create results that sound orders of magnitude more like that master than even the finest CD transfer can. Folks may *like* the sound of one format or another and I'd never argue with that. But it sure seems like a lot of folks have not had the experience of fine vinyl playback, much less actually comparing a good transfer with one to CD.

 

Again, don't blame the format for what some mastering engineers do with it. And given the opportunity (granted a rare one), I suggest interested folks compare equivalent transfers to vinyl and CD with the source. I believe more folks having the chance to do so would eliminate a lot of the debate.

 

As always, just my perspective.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com

Barry Diament Audio

 

 

 

You are absolutely right about CD's low level performance. While analog can often resolve information that's actually below the noise floor, digital cannot. And while this is much more of a problem with 16-bit than it is with 24, it still represents an absolute bottom line on digital performance. Also, as you point out, at very low levels, where only a couple of bits are put into play, the distortion goes up by quite a bit as does the noise. And probably just as important with real low level sounds, the signal starts to be noise modulated. This sounds even worse than just the rise in distortion. This is one of the reasons why the charge leveled at CD early on, that it cannot do ambience very well, was found to be correct. Of course, dither helps here.

 

I also agree with you about the over use of EQ and other artificial tricks often used to "sweeten" a mix. Done right, in the first place, would lessen the need to "fix it in the mix", and when that is done, there is always a sonic cost. But lets face it, commercial recording is just that, a commercial enterprise, done for profit. The needs and desires of audiophiles are not even considered for the most part and the average Joe or Josephine doesn't seem to give a hoot. Given the way that modern pop recordings are EQ'd and compressed, it seems that the recording industry, as a whole, has become so cynical, that quality is simply not an issue. There are, of course, always exceptions to any rule, and I realize that my comments don't extend to everyone.

 

I still think that CD done right is better than vinyl done right, but, the fact is, that "done right" is rare in either case.

[InfernoSTi]

Dancing around a pole; squirrels, associated with nuts; how very, um, Freudian.

 

Sometimes a squirrel is just a squirrel....

[InfernoSTi]

George, was it you that described a recording that was made with tape at a concert with a backup made with a 16 bit digital and the low level comparisons were stark in their differences? That was a profound description for me... John

[gmgraves]

George, was it you that described a recording that was made with tape at a concert with a backup made with a 16 bit digital and the low level comparisons were stark in their differences? That was a profound description for me... John

 

 

Yep, it was me.

[Don Hills]

... I have often said "If you want to make CD sound better, stop listening to vinyl." ...

 

Good advice. It worked for me.

[mordante]

I like both digital and analogue sound.

 

But people that say that digital is easy and cheap are IMHO mistaken. Costs include tablets, NAS, routers, streamers, software of all kinds, DAC, cables etc etc.

 

Also easy? Setting up a digital system is far from easy. Lost of special software like minimserver, jplay, HQ player, Audiophile Optimizer etc. Then when you use DSD you can endlessly play with filter settings etc. To get a high end DSD setup you need a computer or science degree.

[Foggie]

I like both digital and analogue sound.

 

But people that say that digital is easy and cheap are IMHO mistaken. Costs include tablets, NAS, routers, streamers, software of all kinds, DAC, cables etc etc.

 

Also easy? Setting up a digital system is far from easy. Lost of special software like minimserver, jplay, HQ player, Audiophile Optimizer etc. Then when you use DSD you can endlessly play with filter settings etc. To get a high end DSD setup you need a computer or science degree.

 

I get the overall gist of your statements, but you have to realize what's hard for one person can be easy for another. It's all relative.

 

At a basic level one can setup with minimal effort and cost a CA system or a vinyl system. If one chooses to go all out with either medium, then surely things can get more complex. Whether those complexities inhibit ones ability to get to the end goal again, is all relative. There are many examples of ease of use and or complexities within each respective format - it's not either or.

 

Cheers

 

Sent from CA app

[petaluma]

Fremer is behaving in a way that is ... unsound.

 

 

Mr. Bill great to see you back! I've been out of the country and just got back. I am wondering if you are you referring to a pun on sound or calling for Captain Willard to head up river again to terminate Mr. Fremer's command...........

 

On topic, I use all formats when listening, and believe that its all about the quality of the recording. I have bought 192/24 recordings and new vinyl re-issues that were adequate at best.

 

I like that the vinyl option is still around and I might argue that they are using marketing terms like resurgence etc...because essentially the format has to a certain extent risen from the dead....so any increase in equipment and content sales is something to cheer about, but taking on the digital world ain't happening....

 

Having met Chris in May I find it hard to believe that he would have been as aggressive as he was made to sound......

 

Ciao

 

P.S. was in Istanbul and was looking for a local market, FYI Turkish wines are pretty damn good..., in the neighborhood where we were staying and walked around the corner and found a great music store! Had lots of cool stuff, picked up a full analog chain UK pressing of Muddy Waters that I am gonna listen to tonight as soon as I get back my head back on west coast time...Walked back in the apartment with it and my wife looked at me with an expression of WTF you found a record store? Might have been one of the best moments of the trip!

 

[BobSherman]

.

 

Having met Chris in May I find it hard to believe that he would have been as aggressive as he was made to sound......

 

!

 

The quiet guys from Minnesota can sometimes fool you...

 

Fremer is lucky he did not have a hammer with him.

 

 

[bluesman]

people that say that digital is easy and cheap are IMHO mistaken.

Indeed they are! Compare the number of times you've turned on your analog equipment and gotten no (or faulty) sound with the number of times you've turned on your computer-based rig and gotten no (or faulty) sound. Tubes go bad, connectors oxidize and break, cables get disconnected, styli break etc - but the downtime on a vinyl-driven analog rig has probably been well under 1 percent for me over 5+ decades. Few of us achieve that level of reliability in computer-based rigs, even if only because we have to reboot something to get past a glitch, re-establish a network connection, etc. I've had far more hard drives fail on me in the last 20 years than I have tubes or any other components in analog equipment in the last 50.

 

And compatibility issues abound in digital, from connectors and electrical characteristics to file types, input and output levels, etc. Digital is easy and cost-effective when it works - but it doesn't work as flawlessly and consistently or go as long between failures as analog. I don't mind the hassles because it's a lot of fun to coax great music out of little boxes like Chromeboxs, Beaglebones, Minis etc. Religion doesn't play much of a role in my life these days, but I say a silent prayer that music will come out every single time I click play - and I never ever gave it a second thought when all I had to do was drop the needle or hit the play button on my Crown tape transport.

 

Vinyl may be a ritual and require more physical effort than digital, but it's also much more about the experience - the music, the pictures and information on the jacket and sleeve, the culture of record reviews, the way we used to listen to our new records together, etc. Maybe our relationship with the whole process is part of what makes it so pleasurable for us.

[realhifi]

Mr. Bill great to see you back! I've been out of the country and just got back. I am wondering if you are you referring to a pun on sound or calling for Captain Willard to head up river again to terminate Mr. Fremer's command...........

 

On topic, I use all formats when listening, and believe that its all about the quality of the recording. I have bought 192/24 recordings and new vinyl re-issues that were adequate at best.

 

I like that the vinyl option is still around and I might argue that they are using marketing terms like resurgence etc...because essentially the format has to a certain extent risen from the dead....so any increase in equipment and content sales is something to cheer about, but taking on the digital world ain't happening....

 

Having met Chris in May I find it hard to believe that he would have been as aggressive as he was made to sound......

 

Ciao

 

P.S. was in Istanbul and was looking for a local market, FYI Turkish wines are pretty damn good..., in the neighborhood where we were staying and walked around the corner and found a great music store! Had lots of cool stuff, picked up a full analog chain UK pressing of Muddy Waters that I am gonna listen to tonight as soon as I get back my head back on west coast time...Walked back in the apartment with it and my wife looked at me with an expression of WTF you found a record store? Might have been one of the best moments of the trip!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19124[/ATTACH]

 

Great story about finding the record store! Nice display of Keith Jarrett albums in the window. I need a new copy of "My Song"! One of my all time favorites from him.

[Priaptor]

I get the overall gist of your statements, but you have to realize what's hard for one person can be easy for another. It's all relative.

 

At a basic level one can setup with minimal effort and cost a CA system or a vinyl system. If one chooses to go all out with either medium, then surely things can get more complex. Whether those complexities inhibit ones ability to get to the end goal again, is all relative. There are many examples of ease of use and or complexities within each respective format - it's not either or.

 

Cheers

 

Sent from CA app

 

For me regardless of cost between the two, which can be very similar or dissimilar depending upon the path you choose, the biggest benefit of digital (with current SQ capabilities of digital) is being able to sit on my ass and listen without jumping out of my chair to change records, locate tracks or even albums which used to be lined up against my wall by the 1000s.

 

Digital done right is a beautiful thing both sonically and ergonomically and truly enhances ones interaction with their music collection that vinyl just can't touch without huge effort.

[Jabs1542]

I like both digital and analogue sound.

 

But people that say that digital is easy and cheap are IMHO mistaken. Costs include tablets, NAS, routers, streamers, software of all kinds, DAC, cables etc etc.

 

Also easy? Setting up a digital system is far from easy. Lost of special software like minimserver, jplay, HQ player, Audiophile Optimizer etc. Then when you use DSD you can endlessly play with filter settings etc. To get a high end DSD setup you need a computer or science degree.

 

I would guess the early automobile was a crazy complication contraption just to get from point A to point B, and look at us now. I sort of think the whole purpose of this site is to educate people, it's new learning but it's actually not that hard once you dig into it - and Chris brings all this collected knowledge to our fingertips here at CA. And then there's Ted, this guy has put together some outstanding videos and documentation, he made it easy for me to customize JRiver the way I wanted to, and I would have never ripped an SACD without his simple recipe for what is essentially a complex process.

 

While Digital Audio has been around for decades we are still in the learning and growing years in Computer Audio. No one can doubt the convenience when everything is working, and it has its own "wow factor". There will be a few pains along the way while we pioneer through all this converging technology but the resulting sound really is worth it.

[Cycleman]

If I could figure out how to get it to stop notifying me than an update is available, I would be a very happy man.

 

 

Issue the command

sudo launchctl unload -w /System/Library/LaunchAgents/com.apple.notificationcenterui.plist

 

Followed by

killall NotificationCenter

 

Uh, you don't need Unix commands in Terminal to shut off the update notices.

 

Real simple: System Preferences > App Store -- and uncheck everything.

 

Maybe that works better when your Mac is a dedicated music computer, like my Minis.

 

My defense of vinyl is merely a plea for audiophiles to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Vinyl can sound better than many remember and to is another way to access music, often the only way to access some music.

 

And similarly, CDs are still often the only way to access a lot of newer music -- not available on vinyl, not available for download or if it is, costs more for the same 16/44.1 Red Book quality. Basically, I get a lot of music through CDs, rip them right away, and add them to my hard drive (actually SSD) library.

 

F'rinstance, right now I'm listening to a moody recording "Loyalty" by the group The Weather Station (which is actually an individual which is another trend that individual musicians record under the name of a group even though they're not), which is only available on CD or lesser quality MP3 downloads.

 

Dave, who also much agrees with the idea that once his computer music system is working he doesn't change anything except for updating Audirvana Plus and even then keeps the older copy just in case

[Cycleman]

Digital done right is a beautiful thing both sonically and ergonomically and truly enhances ones interaction with their music collection that vinyl just can't touch without huge effort.

 

Yes, now that I have my whole CD library ripped, about 2000 albums -- and also high-rez downloads -- I continue to discover music I've owned but didn't play (much) before.

 

The ease of access enhances my interaction with my music collection big time.

And that brings me more music pleasure...what it's all about!

 

Dave, who is catching up on this thread since he's been too busy cycling to read much of this forum lately and has also discovered that music often sounds better after a bike ride which probably has something to do with body chemistry

[InfernoSTi]

It's a wonder the automobile ever survived its infancy!

 

Or the United States. Or people, for that matter. I doubt these computers are going to catch on, however...

[InfernoSTi]

Mr. Bill great to see you back! I've been out of the country and just got back. I am wondering if you are you referring to a pun on sound or calling for Captain Willard to head up river again to terminate Mr. Fremer's command...........

 

On topic, I use all formats when listening, and believe that its all about the quality of the recording. I have bought 192/24 recordings and new vinyl re-issues that were adequate at best.

 

I like that the vinyl option is still around and I might argue that they are using marketing terms like resurgence etc...because essentially the format has to a certain extent risen from the dead....so any increase in equipment and content sales is something to cheer about, but taking on the digital world ain't happening....

 

Having met Chris in May I find it hard to believe that he would have been as aggressive as he was made to sound......

 

Ciao

 

P.S. was in Istanbul and was looking for a local market, FYI Turkish wines are pretty damn good..., in the neighborhood where we were staying and walked around the corner and found a great music store! Had lots of cool stuff, picked up a full analog chain UK pressing of Muddy Waters that I am gonna listen to tonight as soon as I get back my head back on west coast time...Walked back in the apartment with it and my wife looked at me with an expression of WTF you found a record store? Might have been one of the best moments of the trip!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19124[/ATTACH]

 

I thought that store was in Constantinople...I don't know, it's Greek to me.

 

P.S. not trying to be political or even politically incorrect. Just making reference to the song: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_(Not_Constantinople)

[petaluma]

I thought that store was in Constantinople...I don't know, it's Greek to me.

 

P.S. not trying to be political or even politically incorrect. Just making reference to the song: Istanbul (Not Constantinople) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Inferno, yep we were traveling with a good friend who is fond of the old standards and he would routinely sing the lyrics on the trip. Its quite a catchy tune...

[loop7]

Putting on our futurist hats, do we see vinyl ever becoming a majority? No way. However, I'm concerned lossless and high resolution are in the same boat.

[esldude]

Putting on our futurist hats, do we see vinyl ever becoming a majority? No way. However, I'm concerned lossless and high resolution are in the same boat.

 

Well I agree I think. Which is also another way lossless is more like reel tape than the LP. MP3 is like the LP of its time. One format is of higher fidelity than the other. One format is cheaper, far more widespread, convenient and inexpensive. Unlike the bad old analog days, subsequent technological development has rendered all the tangible reasons MP3 has an advantage almost meaningless. Its ubiquity is all that gives it a real edge right now in the market right now.

 

It also surprises me there is so little talk of Ogg vorbis hirez compressed. For those who do still need to conserve on file sizes. Ogg can do compressed versions of higher sample rates at least up to 192khz. Depending on quality it even maintains the full bandwidth while reducing file size. Haven't seen anyone even do a fair comparison of say standard MP3 at 256 or 320 mbps limited to 48 khz sample rates vs Ogg at 192 khz sample rates.

[tranz]

Here’s a different perspective after 11 pages of this thread…………..

 

In April 2014 Michael Fremer spent several column inches of his Stereophile “Analog Corner” criticising Alan Shaw's contribution to the Harbeth Forum thread (An honest appraisal of vinyl v.digital... reality v. romance? - Page 15) but ignored the general balance of the thread. I wrote to Stereophile:

 

“In 281 posts a variety of views have been aired. Two hard facts emerged:

 

1) On specification alone CD measures better than vinyl, with the possible exception of high-frequency extension.

 

2) A large number of audiophiles prefer the sound of vinyl.

 

Trying to understand why the latter is true produced some useful discussion: in particular the possibility that some of the 'faults' associated with vinyl playback may actually be perceived as producing a better listening experience. Three psychoacoustics aspects were noted:

 

1) Dynamic compression that has to be introduced when the vinyl master is cut effectively raises the level of low-level signals by 5-10 dB, which can be heard as increased detail in the music at a given volume setting.

 

2) Cross-talk between stereo channels. The cross-talk present on vinyl is of a similar level to that deliberately introduced by some commercial signal-processing products. When Stereophile reviewed one (the Signal Completion Stage) both you (John Atkinson) and Michael Fremer preferred the sound of the adulterated signal; you thought it improved the perception of soundstage and ambience.

 

3) Surface noise on vinyl. While this can be low its level remains close to the limit of audibility, in contrast to CD where the noise is far too low to be heard. Posts refer to evidence that adding low-level noise improves the perceived sound quality.

 

Michael Fremer responded:

 

“As usual it is vinyl's "faults" that must be at the root of its being a more pleasurable listening experience. I suggest that the specs are limited. They tell an incomplete story.”

 

One element that I do not read these editors talk about, which in my opinion is a key source of the difference in listening experience between vinyl and digital media, and is two-fold:

 

1. Impact of the high frequency noise, and its harmonics and reflections of all the digital chips in use in a digital playback system.

 

2. The individual's sensitivity to #1

 

It is hard to measure, but if you just plow through some of the threads here on what people do to, in the end, lower this noise floor it is clear that we are not there yet. (I am even running fiber optics now to play a song fer f*cks sakes )

 

It also accounts for many of the heated arguments as some are just not sensitive to it. It also accounts for people enjoying an LP that was sourced from a PCM master file, since the playback system is what creates most (if not all) of this digititus, which is non-existent when playing back that LP. Alternatively, you can put on a Blue Coast pristinely recorded DSD on a system that is not tuned and for some (sensitive to it) is a feeling of relief when turned off, and yet on another system this same DSD will sound far more relaxed.

[Hierge]

Thread police here. You are all under arrest.

[YashN]

Wise Men say that avoiding discussions of Religion and Politics is good for brotherhood.

[new_media]

So...

 

How about that vinyl resurgence?

[tranz]

So...

 

How about that vinyl resurgence?

 

It is absolutely massive!!