CA Readers Are, "clueless, equally bitter and uninformed"

[The Computer Audiophile]

I've given my depiction of the event using facts (repeated at the bottom for simplicity). For Michael Fremer's opinion please read the quoted text below.

 

 

 

Michael Fremer:

 

"I participated in three seminars: two turntable set-ups and one "Meet the Editors" panel moderated by The Absolute Sound's Editor-in-Chief Robert Harley. The other panelists were David Robinson, Positive Feedback online, DigitalAudioReview.net's John Darko and Chris Connacker (sic), editor of Computer Audiophile.

Mr. Connackermust have been having his "time of the month" because the mere mention of the word "vinyl" had his lips curled and him lashing out dismissively. In fact, I'd say of the dozens of panels I've sat on—many of which were contentious—Connacker's demeanor was easily the most unpleasant.

He's having none of "the vinyl resurgence", which he claimed was (in my words) the equivalent of a pimple on the ass of the great, new digital world.

Connacker mocked my claim that vinyl was "huge" except that I never made such a claim. "Rewind the tape" he retorted, which surprised me. Tape??? From a digital guy?

He went on to say vinyl is but a few percent of total sales and I agreed! It's gone from 1% to 2% to now 6% of the physical software market and tens of millions of records sold—and who knows where it will be next year— but Connacker wasn't buying.

"It's still tiny" he insisted. "So is gourmet food compared to fast food and in fact," I went on and not at all cordially you can be sure, "you might as well dismiss the entire high end audio industry and this show too, because it's tiny compared to Bose and what the average person listens to, but so what? What does that have to do with quality?"

Believe me, I got the better of the snarky, unpleasant Mr. Connacker. He's one of those guys who just can't stand the fact that some of us get pleasure from analog and vinyl, whereas even Mr. Darko who writes for a digital site, enjoys vinyl as does David Robinson who was there extolling the virtues of Quad DSD.

Connacker could have said he's not into vinyl and left it at that but he was there to pick a fight and he got one from me, no holds barred.

Robert Harley graciously credited me for being among vinyl's staunchest supporters even during the dark days of "perfect sound forever." The dyspeptic Mr. Connacker, not so much!

If you go to the computer audiophile website and read his show coverage you'll read a reference to the "huge" vinyl statement I never made and please read the vinyl comments from his clueless, equally bitter and uninformed readers (unless you too believe that the "vinyl resurgence" is a couple of mustachioed hipsters).

As I aways say when reading such "stuff", why are these people so bitter about how others get pleasure? Maybe they're not having as much fun listening to digital as they think they are, which is why I think they are always "on the rag" about vinyl."

 

Source: Analog Planet

 

 

 

 

My Text:

 

"Can we get a little perspective please? I took part in a panel with editors of other high end audio publications this afternoon. Right away the discussion moved into vinyl territory and talk about a so-called huge resurgence of vinyl was being thrown about. Before I continue I must say that I think vinyl is cool and I encourage everyone to listen to it. Vinyl isn’t something I prefer but I have no issue at all with those who do. The discussion also went to quad DSD being the sonic holy grail, but I stayed out of that discussion for the most part. My only suggestion to the audience member who asked the original question was that he should not consider the sample rate as an indicator of sound quality and that the people involved in making the recording are what really matter. In most cases and in my experience sound quality is a human factor and not a matter of technology. This seemed to fall on deaf ears among some panelists. I will take a product (music or audio component) from a good engineer using the worst parts or supposed inferior format any day over a bad engineer using the best components and the highest sample rate known to man. Does it have to be either or? No, but how many recordings of our favorite music recorded and mastered by the best engineers and in high resolution formats exist? Not many. Back to vinyl. After a member of the audience brought up the vinyl resurgence and the conversation was in full swing about vinyl’s popularity and the “fact” that kids were into it because of quality, I mentioned that the whole vinyl resurgence wasn’t really that big, kids were into it because it’s a fad and a cool thing to have right now, and that Taylor Swift had outsold all of vinyl herself last year. Meaning that Taylor Swift sold more albums than all vinyl albums put together. This caused a shit-storm with some on the panel and a few members of the audience. One panelist told me I was wrong and that 33 million albums were pressed last year. I didn’t believe the 33 million number but couldn’t hold up the entire panel just to look up numbers. Thus, after the show and dinner this evening I looked for the numbers about vinyl sales and Taylor Swift sales. Honestly, if I was incorrect I didn’t want to keep touting wrong information and look like a fool. So, here are the numbers. Taylor Swift’s album 1989 was on sale for only the last nine weeks of calendar year 2014. The album sold 3.66 million copies in those nine weeks according to Nielsen SoundScan. Looking at vinyl, 9.2 million records were sold in all 52 weeks of 2014 according to Nielsen SoundScan data. As it turns out, both I and the other panelist had incorrect sales numbers. However, I stand by my opinion that the vinyl resurgence is cool, but not very large and not very significant in the big picture. The only reason I brought up this issue in the first place was to give the conversation a little perspective. Talking about a resurgence of something in a vacuum of like-minded people can lead one to a slightly skewed view of reality. It was my intention to offer an additional data point for perspective. My opinion had absolutely nothing to do with the sound of vinyl or its efficacy as a physical medium that many people love."

 

Source

[InfernoSTi]

Chris,

 

You put up with more $hit than I could ever imagine...thanks for being professional not engaging at the lowest common denominator.

 

John

[new_media]

In my experience, the vinyl resurgence has been more about fadism than sound quality.

 

I would have to dig for the article, but I recall reading recently that sales of turntables have been pretty static, meaning a lot of the vinyl being bought up is for collecting and not listening.

 

I drank a bit of the kool-aid myself the last couple years, but I am determined this year to buy high-res digital whenever it is available, and limit vinyl purchases to things only available on vinyl.

[sandyk]

I mentioned that the whole vinyl resurgence wasn’t really that big, kids were into it because it’s a fad and a cool thing to have right now, and that Taylor Swift had outsold all of vinyl herself last year.

 

Hi Chris

I don't doubt that the younger generation is finding vinyl cool, but they are unlikely to have gear capable of getting anywhere near the best from vinyl. Most vinyl addicts with gear capable of extracting the best from good vinyl pressings are likely to be middle aged or older.

High quality performance from high res. PCM and DSD is far more affordable and easier to achieve than from a similarly priced vinyl set up. The highest quality playback from a decent vinyl set up also requires very careful adjustment of VTA, tracking force etc. and the tools to do it properly. The younger generation would need to have suitable mentoring to do this , or have it set up in situ by a well informed Dealer.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

[Adyc]

I wonder what is the percentage of audiophiles have vinyl in their systems . 10% or 20%. Unless the percentage goes up to 30% or 40%, vinyl remains a niche market. It will never die but will not come back to its heyday 30 or 40 years ago.

[esldude]

Hi Chris

I don't doubt that the younger generation is finding vinyl cool, but they are unlikely to have gear capable of getting anywhere near the best from vinyl. Most vinyl addicts with gear capable of extracting the best from good vinyl pressings are likely to be middle aged or older.

High quality performance from high res. PCM and DSD is far more affordable and easier to achieve than from a similarly priced vinyl set up. The highest quality playback from a decent vinyl set up also requires very careful adjustment of VTA, tracking force etc. and the tools to do it properly. The younger generation would need to have suitable mentoring to do this , or have it set up in situ by a well informed Dealer.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

Mentoring is old school. Consider this the new variety.

 

 

Hour long video by Michael Fremer on TT setup. His is not the only one. There are dozens of videos of varying quality. As soon as some hipster tells another his rig has the wrong VTF or VTA, hipster #2 will look for how to bring his rig up to competitive spec. He probably will pick one of the 15 minute vids instead of Fremer's, but he will get the low down easily enough.

 

Shorter TT setup

 

While I didn't learn it this way, and videos aren't the same as learning directly. They do help and you can get up to speed on lots of things that us old heads didn't hear about for years or wondered about for years before learning what was what. Doesn't work that way any more.

 

You can also download a variety of cartridge protractors to print out and use.

http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml

 

Or here including strobe speed adjusting templates.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/freestuff.htm

 

There are phone apps to adjust speed and plenty of resources for any hipster wanting to learn the finer points of TT setup.

[toddrhodes]

I bought a reasonable turntable, a Music Hall, two years ago. Purchased some new vinyl off Amazon (I didn't know any better) and prepared myself for the rapture. I was using a Bryston 2 channel amp and a McCormack preamp with a very good phono stage. This all ran through a set of Energy Connoisseur speakers I am very familiar with, had them for 12 years at this point. I was so excited to get it all going. Then I turned on the album I know best, in all its vinyl glory - Metallica - Ride the Lightning. Yea, not audiophile stuff but that's not the point. I've heard various Redbook, digital, what have you versions of this album dozens of times, every track on it. What I heard severely disappointed me. Flat, hollow sound. No dynamics, no presence, just a completely flat experience. To be clear - this is NOT a matter of it being on vinyl. It's a matter of it being a very poorly mastered version pressed to vinyl for everyone to lap up during this "vinyl resurgence." Point is, as Chris stated - it's about what goes into the medium that counts. I'm sure if I had a well-mastered original copy of RTL, I'd have been enthralled, maybe even moreso than my FLAC copies of the Gold edition of the same album in Redbook. In fact, after two and a half songs, that's exactly what I switched to (through a humble Modi v1 DAC mind you) and all that I love about that album came flooding back.

 

Fact is, vinyl is a fantastic format but it's not immune to cash grabs from recording houses who will throw any old shitty master onto a pressing and expect people to claim it's amazing simply because it's a vinyl record.

 

I no longer own a turntable.

[wgscott]

Mr. Connacker must have been having his "time of the month"

 

The ultimate loser autophool insult: imply your antagonist is a woman.

 

That pretty much tells us how seriously we need to take the rest of his rantings.

[Jud]

Mr. Connacker must have been having his "time of the month"

 

- because everyone knows how damned unpleasant and illogical those wimmen are when they have their "time of month."

 

Hi, Mr. Fremer, it's the 19th Century calling, they'd like their misogynistic attitude back.

[Jud]

The ultimate loser autophool insult: imply your antagonist is a woman.

 

That pretty much tells us how seriously we need to take the rest of his rantings.

 

Great minds....

[jtwrace]

Wankers.

[esldude]

- because everyone knows how damned unpleasant and illogical those wimmen are when they have their "time of month."

 

Hi, Mr. Fremer, it's the 19th Century calling, they'd like their misogynistic attitude back.

 

Would the 21st century version be to say he is having a bad time in life like Bruce (Caitlyn) Jenner?

[Jud]

I am just completely dang ignorant and am bitter because my ambition to progress to merely clueless and uninformed hasn't come to fruition.

[sandyk]

Mentoring is old school. Consider this the new variety.

 

Dennis

I am aware of that, and the cardboard tools have been around for a long time too. The fact is that it doesn't matter how much adjustment is done, the SQ will still be well below what can be achieved from a similarly priced digital set up that most younger people can afford.

 

Alex

[ErikM]

I don't really see the point of this, it really just continues the unneeded drama. I suspect that both egos got in the way of good behavior.

[esldude]

I don't really see the point of this, it really just continues the unneeded drama. I suspect that both egos got in the way of good behavior.

 

So are you asking that Chris ban himself for starting the thread?

[NipperDog]

My kids moved out of the house years ago but I've been around my nieces and nephews enough times to know that it's the cool factor with vinyl that makes it so appealing. They tell me that it's a hipster thing.

[ErikM]

So are you asking that Chris ban himself for starting the thread?

 

That's funny.. No my point really was that it comes off as sort of petty. Fremer the vinyl guru, vs Chris the digital guy both trying to argue for their chosen formats superiority.. Seems like it got out of hand and egos have started to battle, rather than just moving on.

 

But I'm not going coment anymore since it drags it out and this silly spat needs to die, no one benefits

[wgscott]

- because everyone knows how damned unpleasant and illogical those wimmen are when they have their "time of month."

 

Hi, Mr. Fremer, it's the 19th Century calling, they'd like their misogynistic attitude back.

 

Along with their vinyl.

[wgscott]

I don't really see the point of this, it really just continues the unneeded drama. I suspect that both egos got in the way of good behavior.

 

The evidence does not appear to support this assertion.

[pawel8]

The evidence does not appear to support this assertion.

There is no evidence.

 

I have been semi reprimanded for liking more Dean Martin vinyl edition when compared to a digital version during Newport Show(please see my comment to day 2).

Are we allowed to like vinyl songs on this forum?

I have digital only at home and am using DCS.

[wgscott]

There is no evidence.

 

I have been semi reprimanded for liking more Dean Martin vinyl edition when compared to a digital version during Newport Show(please see my comment to day 2).

Are we allowed to like vinyl songs on this forum?

I have digital only at home and am using DCS.

 

Vinylphiles are quite well-represented here, and good-sounding DACs are described as sounding "almost analogue."

 

I don't see any evidence that Chris's ego (which I also see very little evidence for) got in the way of his remarkably diplomatic behavior and under-stated reply.

 

Fremer is behaving in a way that is ... unsound.

 

Edit: I just went back and read Chris' reply to you: Your preference is your preference.

 

What on earth is wrong with that? If you say one thing sounds better, that is your opinion. If I say something else sounds better, it is mine. Neither of our opinions establish that one or the other really is better.

[pawel8]

Quote Originally Posted by pawel8 View Post

Chris

I was there yesterday but did not have luck to meet you.

Re vinyl

Went to Kubala room and listened to Fremer,s Dean Martin 192 followed by newly reissued vinyl:there was no doubt about vinyl sounded much,much better.

Great to hear you like the vinyl. I've never had an issue with people's sound quality preferences.

 

I wonder if the two versions were from the same master or as Joel asked, if the digital was a vinyl rip. Either way, your preference is your preference :~)

 

Why to comment on my impression of 1 song?apparently it was a big deal to Chris.

There are some people on this forum who claim that their cheap dacs are better than more expensive ones and better than high end vinyl.

I think they should undergo hearing tests.

[gldgate]

Fremer thinks he is the self appointed messiah of vinyl and has a huge chip on his shoulder. I'm a vinyl lover and think the musical tent is big enough for everyone. I do disagree with those who think vinyl is just a fad. In the audiophile circles I frequent it's the baby boomers and gen x who have the disposable income to drive sales of high end turntables, electronics and "audiophile" pressings. I personally prefer my vinyl rig a tad bit better than my digital but (a) the gap has closed tremendously over the last few years, (b) I will admit my analog rig is probably more euphonically "colored" than my digital is and © there is no question in my mind that the advancements on the digital side over the next few years will be more exciting than what is happening in the analog realm.

 

Just wanted to say Fremer does not speak for all of us who enjoy vinyl. He took the low road and sound more and more like a bitter old man.

[DanRubin]

In the SF Audiophile Society, 60% of members have turntables. Our demographic does skew a bit older.

 

Fremer breaks out the attack dog persona in print with some regularity. Generally he brings a lot to the table, but I wonder if this behavior wins him any friends...or arguments.