Uptone Regen and your DAC. What DAC do you use?

[Mike Mcsweeney]

John,

I am also curious what you think about amps/avr's that have their own USB port (type a) using a flash drive? Would they have the same issues as PC's? Specifically i am talking about Marantz SR5009/6009/7009 that have capability to play flac and dsd files from their own usb type a? To me, flac and dsd files played from the usb port on the marantz sounds great.

[Superdad]

 

So if no cable is the best, what is the best of the cable connection options between Regen and DAC?

 

Well John and I were talking the other night about this, and he has a really cool idea for what could be the ultimate short USB cable: a custom flexible PCB. Not to be confused with FFCs (flat flexible cable), flexible PC boards allow for multi-layer and trace spacing to be entirely custom. So parameters like perfect 90 ohm impedance could be designed in, along with trace weight, spaced ground plane for entirely equal shield current, etc. PCB-mount USB 'A' plugs are available, but the 'B' end is a bit trickier. The are length limits for manufacturing, so even getting to a half-meter might not be practicable, but 6-8 inches should be no sweat. Only thing is, I think the initial costs--well more the quantity minimums--to have something like this made might scare me off. But I think we might look into it.

[odelay]

Shame you're not able to have USB B output so as to do alway with an A-B adapter.

If there was a more elegant solution to be found, I'd be happy to wait. ?

[jamesg11]

I tried a setup with the Corning from computer to Regen and Clearlink from Regen to DAC. Not as good as Corning and solid adapter supplied with Regen. There's no cable like no cable!

If the REGEN had the PS input somewhere else! I'd easily fit another adaptor 'tween mac mini & REGEN ie. no cables.

[hifial]

Well John and I were talking the other night about this, and he has a really cool idea for what could be the ultimate short USB cable: a custom flexible PCB. Not to be confused with FFCs (flat flexible cable), flexible PC boards allow for multi-layer and trace spacing to be entirely custom. So parameters like perfect 90 ohm impedance could be designed in, along with trace weight, spaced ground plane for entirely equal shield current, etc. PCB-mount USB 'A' plugs are available, but the 'B' end is a bit trickier. The are length limits for manufacturing, so even getting to a half-meter might not be practicable, but 6-8 inches should be no sweat. Only thing is, I think the initial costs--well more the quantity minimums--to have something like this made might scare me off. But I think we might look into it.

 

 

Alex, MOST DEFINITELY look into this, the sooner the better. I would think many/most Regen owners would be buyers of this. If you can get the length to a half-meter that would be great but anything near a foot could work for many. Obviously not an ideal length but the potential benefits would cause many to deal with the length as best they can.

Then there are also general buyers of USB cables looking for a USB connection to best what is currently out there at a reasonable price.

[Duke40]

Alex, MOST DEFINITELY look into this, the sooner the better. I would think many/most Regen owners would be buyers of this. If you can get the length to a half-meter that would be great but anything near a foot could work for many. Obviously not an ideal length but the potential benefits would cause many to deal with the length as best they can.

Then there are also general buyers of USB cables looking for a USB connection to best what is currently out there at a reasonable price.

 

+1

[AlainGr]

If the REGEN had the PS input somewhere else! I'd easily fit another adaptor 'tween mac mini & REGEN ie. no cables.

 

Hi James,

 

If I understand correctly the problem, maybe a 90 degrees DC power adaptor at the input of the Regen would do the trick ? Either side (female input of the adapter and male output to the Regen) should be 5.5mm x 2.1mm...

 

CNT-LC52

[JoseL]

What the world needs now is a short (~6") Supra USB cable. Perhaps UpTone audio could source a good batch from Supra. Superdad, is this doable?

Or perhaps we can do a group request to Supra.

JoseL

(anxiously waiting for my amber Regen)

 

Below is Supra's reply to my email regarding a shorter (~6") length of their USB cable:

 

 

"To make a special length of the USB cables we would need a bit larger quantities. Someplace in between 100-200 pcs. The lead time is also rather long to get these through ordinary production.

 

Please let me know if it would be interesting.

 

Best regards,

Patrik

Patrik Andersson

Assistant Export Manager

IT & Web Manager

SUPRA Cables / Jenving Technology AB"

 

I wish I have the time to organize a group bulk buy.

Anybody? UpTone Audio perhaps?

[ginetto61]

.... Going shorter still, there are a couple of cheap chinese USB cables at around .15m and .2m for a few dollars. I am sure they are not well specced, but does their shortness override this?

Could really short cheap cables be the next best thing to a hard adapter connection? and outperform slightly longer better specced cables? ...

 

Hi if you attach a link maybe there will be someone so brave to try them out

Thanks, gino

[matthias]

Well John and I were talking the other night about this, and he has a really cool idea for what could be the ultimate short USB cable: a custom flexible PCB. Not to be confused with FFCs (flat flexible cable), flexible PC boards allow for multi-layer and trace spacing to be entirely custom. So parameters like perfect 90 ohm impedance could be designed in, along with trace weight, spaced ground plane for entirely equal shield current, etc. PCB-mount USB 'A' plugs are available, but the 'B' end is a bit trickier. The are length limits for manufacturing, so even getting to a half-meter might not be practicable, but 6-8 inches should be no sweat. Only thing is, I think the initial costs--well more the quantity minimums--to have something like this made might scare me off. But I think we might look into it.

 

A VERY good idea !

KR Matt

[HumanMedia]

Hi if you attach a link maybe there will be someone so brave to try them out

Thanks, gino

 

I will track down some links. I have two of the cheap chinese cables in a cable bin here somewhere. One of them may even be the same as what ships with the Regen. I know I have seen a photo of the one that ships with the Regen in one of the discussions, but couldn't find the image when I went looking.

 

Maybe Superdad/Uptone could put an image / link to the one they provide?

 

That short Belkin is also a contender that I keep forgetting about.

[ginetto61]

I will track down some links.

I have two of the cheap chinese cables in a cable bin here somewhere. One of them may even be the same as what ships with the Regen. I know I have seen a photo of the one that ships with the Regen in one of the discussions, but couldn't find the image when I went looking.

Maybe Superdad/Uptone could put an image / link to the one they provide?

That short Belkin is also a contender that I keep forgetting about

 

Hi and thanks a lot for the kind reply.

I have had good experience with these ones in longer lengths ... based on Belden cables

 

U04 0 3M 1ft USB A to B DAC Belden Shielded Twisted Pair Cable HiFi Cable | eBay

 

i have removed the ferrite bead because i was advised to do so.

They seem well done. The price is inviting ...

[sandyk]

Hi and thanks a lot for the kind reply.

I have had good experience with these ones in longer lengths ... based on Belden cables

 

U04 0 3M 1ft USB A to B DAC Belden Shielded Twisted Pair Cable HiFi Cable | eBay

 

i have removed the ferrite bead because i was advised to do so.

They seem well done. The price is inviting ...

 

Belden 8723 is only 52 ohms impedance !!!

 

http://www.belden.com/techdatas/metric/8723.pdf

[ginetto61]

Belden 8723 is only 52 ohms impedance !!!

http://www.belden.com/techdatas/metric/8723.pdf

 

Hi and thanks for the info. Then what should be the right impedance for an usb cable ?

Found something ...

30 ohms to ground, 90 ohms differential between the USB data lines

 

and found one cable ...

http://wire-cable-tubing.wireandcable.com/item/coaxial-wire-cables/90-ohm-usb-aerospace-cables/w-3627-26

[sandyk]

and found one cable ...

http://wire-cable-tubing.wireandcabl...bles/w-3627-26

 

Looks promising, BUT, "To be supplied on bulk reels, 100 feet multiple lengths"

[fmak]

Shame you're not able to have USB B output so as to do alway with an A-B adapter.

If there was a more elegant solution to be found, I'd be happy to wait.

 

I just bought two of these:http://www.ebay.com.hk/itm/2x-3-3inch-Flat-USB-Male-A-to

-Micro-B-5-Pin-Data-Sync-Charging-Cable-WQUC091-/291474351153?pt=LH_

DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43dd39a431

 

Will dissect one to see what's inside.

 

I should not be difficult to create a high quality cable using something like Wireworld

flat cable. This has good Data line spacing control and provides good shielding of both

power and data lines. The important thing in my experience is good and careful termination.

 

The standard Wireworld termination leaves both the A and B ends partially unshielded.

Placing a copper tape ring around the plugs make a clear difference.

[Liam]

I already asked, and they politely refused. I don't recall the exact explanation, but they had technical reasons for not making anything shorter then their current minimum length USB cable.

 

edit: Here is the reply I got from Mapleshade back on 12/02/13:

"If we made a 1/2 m USB, you would hate the sound of it: a 1/2 m digital cable sounds MUCH worse than a 1 m. By our listening experiments, optimum length is between 1 and 2 m. If you're interested in more detail on our experiments and findings, feel free to call me at 410 867-7543.

Pierre"

 

Possibly because those lengths minimise impedance mismatch issues.

[JohnSwenson]

Belden 8723 is only 52 ohms impedance !!!

 

http://www.belden.com/techdatas/metric/8723.pdf

 

It's hard to tell which impedance is meant by the 52ohms in that spec sheet. There is the differential impedance (which is supposed to be 90 ohms in USB) and the impedance from one conductor to the shield. 52 ohms is very low for a differential impedance, but is normal for a single conductor to shield impedance. The differential impedance is usually a bit less than twice the single conductor impedance. Sooo if that number was for a single conductor, it makes sense, if it was for the differential impedance, it's not well suited for USB.

 

John S.

[JohnSwenson]

Hi and thanks for the info. Then what should be the right impedance for an usb cable ?

Found something ...

 

and found one cable ...

Item # W-3627-26, 90 Ohm USB Aerospace Cables On Whitmor/Wirenetics

 

For a shielded twisted pair the differential impedance can never be greater than twice the single conductor to shield impedance, so 30 ohms to ground and 90 ohms differential doesn't make sense. In the real world the differential impedance is usually a little less than twice the single ended impedance.

 

I found that cable a while back and Alex got some samples, its is VERY stiff, very difficult to bend. He wired a piece up to some connectors and didn't like the sound very much. That was before the REGEN existed, so it might be interesting to try it driving the REGEN.

 

John S.

[One and a half]

Hi and thanks for the info. Then what should be the right impedance for an usb cable ?

Found something ...

 

and found one cable ...

Item # W-3627-26, 90 Ohm USB Aerospace Cables On Whitmor/Wirenetics

 

Great cable...but! FEP with the small dimensions in a USB A or B connector is going to be a tough ask using standard hand tools, cause it's a stiff and rigid an insulation. Might ask our surgeon friends if they could help out.

[Superdad]

Shame you're not able to have USB B output so as to do alway with an A-B adapter.

 

Believe me, early on I searched high and low for a PCB-mount USB 'B' plug--they don't exist. (When you see a dongle device with a 'B' plug sticking out, they do that by machining a place for a cable plug to rest and be secured.) At one point John advocated for a very short cable to come off the board and out as an output "tail", but that too would limit flexibility of use for the REGEN, and with the labor involved, drive the price up. Not to mention finding a source for a worthy few inches of cable with USB 'B' plug attached (NOT hand soldering USB cable ends!!).

 

All that said, there really is nothing keeping someone from desoldering the surface-mount 'A' output jack from the REGEN PCB and soldering on a very short USB cable. Just don't ask ME to do it!

[Superdad]

Great cable...but! FEP with the small dimensions in a USB A or B connector is going to be a tough ask using standard hand tools, cause it's a stiff and rigid an insulation. Might ask our surgeon friends if they could help out.

 

 

It was not too bad to work with. Then again, I have a heat stripper for Teflon wire. But as John mentioned, compared to the Supra, the Wirenetics USB cable I made sounded nasty. Just a bit harsh. Might revisit it again with the REGEN.

[fmak]

Looks promising, BUT, "To be supplied on bulk reels, 100 feet multiple lengths"

 

That was why I gave up and bought 5 and 7m lengths of Wireworld Purple and Red to cut up. Even these cables can be of different versions from their originals.

[soundlogic]

OK, I took the plunge on ordering the Regen Amber...then upon further reading, I wonder if I reacted too quickly? I have a double headed USB cable, actually two...different manufacturers: Lavri Cables Silver and Light Harmonic Lightspeed. My source is a Aurallic Aries streamer and Dac is a PS Audio Directstream. Can anyone chime in as to whether my hardware/cable combo will benefit substantially from the Regan? I appreciate all comments. Thanks; Tim

[Theobetley]

OK, I took the plunge on ordering the Regen Amber...then upon further reading, I wonder if I reacted too quickly? I have a double headed USB cable, actually two...different manufacturers: Lavri Cables Silver and Light Harmonic Lightspeed. My source is a Aurallic Aries streamer and Dac is a PS Audio Directstream. Can anyone chime in as to whether my hardware/cable combo will benefit substantially from the Regan? I appreciate all comments. Thanks; Tim

 

Why wouldn't it. Just plug it in and try; my guess is you'll lov it.