Uptone Regen and your DAC. What DAC do you use?

[4est]

I've been preaching about flat pack dual bobbin xformers for this for years. In fact, it came from researching a noisy flat pack transformer in the Berkeley Alpha DAC I had at the time.

AlexC

I wasn't guessing, which is why I accentuated the "IF"

My suggestion was mainly aimed at any DIY person contemplating making a small Linear PSU for USB use.

I have found, just as John has, that there is capacitive coupling back to the mains via the transformer which does degrade USB performance to some extent.

 

Regards

Alex K

[4est]

Oh, I am not suggesting they are better. As a diyer, I have chosen them in part because they are very inexpensive whereby allowing me to use separate transformers for elements as opposed to just separate windings on the same bobbin. Just my simpleton approach.

I've been preaching about flat pack dual bobbin xformers for this for years. In fact, it came from researching a noisy flat pack transformer in the Berkeley Alpha DAC I had at the time.

[sandyk]

I have chosen them in part because they are very inexpensive whereby allowing me to use separate transformers for elements as opposed to just separate windings on the same bobbin.

 

They aren't so easy to get here though, whereas I can go to a local Jaycar or Altronics store and get a toroidal over the counter. Even Farnell /Element 14 and RS Components don't have anything suitable (if any) in dual bobbin either, or R-core.

[Pascal64]

Amber REGEN and Atoll DAC 200

good SQ improovment !

[RichB]

AMBER ALERT! (sorry, could not resist the pun). Courtesy of a good customer I am building up a Mac mini computer audio machine for, I have his Amber and my Regen Green. :-)

 

So far I have been using the Regen(s) with our Wavelength Audio Cosecant (Denominator DAC module) USB dac as this is my main/reference DAC... need to get some time so I can try it with some of the other DACs I have in house (Rega & iFi Audio in particular). As it is I have only had hour or so to compare the Amber to the Green last night on the Cosecant last night and in short the improvements Alex mentioned are there... presentation has the same clairty imporvements as before, but now (to my ears) it sounds better balanced top to bottom.

 

Some pics of the current mess of the Regen, DAC and listening room at the present moment.

 

 

 

[REShaman]

AMBER ALERT! (sorry, could not resist the pun). Courtesy of a good customer I am building up a Mac mini computer audio machine for, I have his Amber and my Regen Green. :-)

 

So far I have been using the Regen(s) with our Wavelength Audio Cosecant (Denominator DAC module) USB dac as this is my main/reference DAC... need to get some time so I can try it with some of the other DACs I have in house (Rega & iFi Audio in particular). As it is I have only had hour or so to compare the Amber to the Green last night on the Cosecant last night and in short the improvements Alex mentioned are there... presentation has the same clairty imporvements as before, but now (to my ears) it sounds better balanced top to bottom.

 

Some pics of the current mess of the Regen, DAC and listening room at the present moment.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19201[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19202[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19203[/ATTACH]

 

Enjoyed visiting your website. I am awaiting my order from UpTone Audio and vicariously enjoy that others are already experiencing the magic and medicine their components provide. I have on order a JS-2, MMK and Regen Amber (first Regen). And patiently check my inbox for that missive from Alex.

 

Enjoy the music,

Richard

[Superdad]

Oh, I am not suggesting they are better. As a diyer, I have chosen them in part because they are very inexpensive whereby allowing me to use separate transformers for elements as opposed to just separate windings on the same bobbin. Just my simpleton approach.

 

You mean like these?:

 

 

 

And two can be seen in the upper deck (I think the above pic is from the supplies that went in the lower deck along with the rest of the "dirty" computer stuff and CDROM drive) of this pre-production prototype of the Hovland DMS-1 (Digital Music Source). That product, which Chris C. and many others saw and heard at CES 2008, never went into production (we closed the Hovland doors in 2009), but it was waaaay ahead of its time:

4.3" color LCD, CompuLab credit-card size Linux computer, data-mode CDROM buffering and playing CDs as if it was a regular CDP (CD players were still big then and our overseas customers were behind the curve on the burgeoning CA scene), NOS quad of PCM1704K DACs feeding an all-discrete balanced output stage, 7 power supplies, USB and Ethernet inputs, USB thumb drive input, internet database lookup of the inserted CD, internet radio (okay these last two were part of the spec but we never got to the programming stage--and the Ethernet input had unanswered questions).

 

 

What you are looking at was also the fruits of my first collaboration with John Swenson. I found him (2004/'05) on Audio Asylum--generously sharing his broad and deep engineering knowledge as he has always done and continues to--and reached out for his help with what became a very ambitious project. My Hovland partners and our distributors thought they just wanted a CD player to go with a flagship preamp to match our big Stratos mono-block amps, but as soon as we put our heads together with John--and based on our own early computer audio experiences--it morphed into the crazy-for-its-time design described above. We put John on a nice retainer and flew him down to our L.A. offices several times. The analog side of the piece was Hovland Co. (credit the very sharp Hovland engineer Peter Russell for his "discrete op-amp" design--it is what's in my reference, earlier prototype DAC to this day; designer Jeffrey Tonkin has the magnificent sounding quad-PCM1704K unit you see in the picture), and the digital boards and computer side were all John Swenson.

 

Sorry for the off-topic trip down memory lane. Yeah, flat-pak dual-bobbin transformers are nice to work with, though they are not available in larger sizes. Terrific for low current stuff.

 

Ciao,

--Alex C.

 

P.S. Can't resist posting this pic of the above piece alongside the pre-production HP-300 at CES. The front buttons on the DMS-1 were so cool: sliced aluminum "leaves" would actuate micro-swithes--and they were back-lit. Pure Jeff Tonkin genius.

 

[rah50]

AMBER ALERT! (sorry, could not resist the pun). Courtesy of a good customer I am building up a Mac mini computer audio machine for, I have his Amber and my Regen Green. :-)

 

So far I have been using the Regen(s) with our Wavelength Audio Cosecant (Denominator DAC module) USB dac as this is my main/reference DAC... need to get some time so I can try it with some of the other DACs I have in house (Rega & iFi Audio in particular). As it is I have only had hour or so to compare the Amber to the Green last night on the Cosecant last night and in short the improvements Alex mentioned are there... presentation has the same clairty imporvements as before, but now (to my ears) it sounds better balanced top to bottom.

 

Some pics of the current mess of the Regen, DAC and listening room at the present moment.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19201[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19202[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19203[/ATTACH]

 

You could answer a lot of questions from everyone here by putting that Regen Green directly into that Regen Amber and letting us know if two Regens are better than one!

[soundbloke]

You've got me thinking I might be better off powering the Regen (and my DAC beyond) with a LiPo battery pack, like my Anker Astro 3, which offers 5V, 9V, and 12V output.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19199[/ATTACH]

 

I'll have to add this to my test plan. :-)

 

Mike

 

What most people don't realize is that these consumer battery packs contain cheap switching regulators, you are NOT getting a direct battery output.

 

John S.

 

One of my first experiments upon getting the iFi Gemini cable was to try connecting its power head to my Anker battery, which did make a noticeable difference when compared to plugging into one of my PC's (very dirty!) USB ports - mostly positive in terms of the soundstage opening up, but OTOH dynamics (esp in the bass region) may or may not have suffered in complex, very busy passages...note that this was without a REGEN in the chain.

 

John S. had explained at the time why going down the mobile charger battery route may not yield quite the optimal results as one would assume (see below), and had also warned about the potential danger of high voltage differentials between different ground references if a dual-headed cable doesn't have its power end connected to the same gear as the cable's data end.

 

 

Just out of curiosity btw, is there something that a well-designed LPS does which works better for audio than say, a battery source? Better shielding, more reserve power perhaps? From a layman's perspective such as mine, I'd actually have guessed that a battery source would provide cleaner power...but what do I know?!

 

 

 

It's not just noise that is important. The capability of the supply to handle multiple closely spaced transients I have found to be very important to the sound, particularly for digital audio. Many batteries by themselves have too high an impedance to handle this properly. A battery with a large cap, feeding a good regulator feeding an intermediate sized cap will work well, but it is unusual to find this off the shelf.

 

In particular battery devices designed to charge cell phones may have very poor implementations for digital audio.

 

Many LPS designs have a lot of capacitance, which handles the first part well, but OTOH a power supply which feeds a large cap (without the choke such as I use) can feed a lot of noise back into the AC mains.

 

It's an interesting aspect of all this, but a very well designed switching supply can actually send less noise back into the mains than most LPS designs. Unfortunately they can also be much worse, and that is not a spec you will NOT find in any catalog!

 

John S.

 

btw JS' reasoning above now has me idly wondering if the (much-speculated-upon) powering upgrade option for the REGEN may involve a LiPo battery pack retrofitted with "a large cap, feeding a good regulator feeding an intermediate sized cap" (+ perhaps a choke to reduce the noise getting back into the AC mains), in which case the stock Mean Well can be called upon to charge this battery?

 

Nah, probably too conventional and off the mark completely once again lol, but it's always a fun exercise to wildly speculate and dream about whatever is being cooked up in that garage of theirs

[zilch0md]

What most people don't realize is that these consumer battery packs contain cheap switching regulators, you are NOT getting a direct battery output.

 

John S.

 

I remember that Mike was powering TBI Millenia MG3 with 22.2V LiPO Venom RC, how about the 7.4V flavor?

 

http://www.amazon.com/Venom-5000mAh-7-4V-LiPO-Hard/dp/B000VUF3O2

 

Maybe a pair of LiFePO4 could be another alternative since each cell should work anywhere between 3V (fully discharged) and 4.2V (fully charged) so basically that's from 6V to 8.4V.

 

There are a couple of problems with using RC LiPo packs...

 

First, the rated voltage is the "nominal voltage" one sees when each cell is charged to 3.7V. A "2S" pack like the one at the link you've provided has two cells in series. When fully charged it can deliver 2 * 4.2V = 8.4V. When fully discharged (no lower than the minimum safe voltage of 3.0V per cell), the pack would still be delivering 2 8 3.0V = 6.0V.

 

This range of 6.0V (when fully discharged) to 8.4V (when fully charged) would serve the USB Regen well, even when using a USB-powered DAC, but two additional devices are required to manage a "dumb" RC LiPo battery:

 

1) An intelligent "balanced" charger, similar to the Thunder AC6, that can independently charge each cell to 4.2V.

 

2) A voltage monitoring alarm that will sound whenever one or both cells in the pack reach the minimum safe discharge voltage of 3.0V. (You do not want the voltage of even once cell to fall below 3.0V or it might end up refusing to take a charge or even starting a fire. If a LiPo battery begins to look swollen, take it to your local hazmat disposal center. It's done, but don't stick a fork in it. :-)

 

But there's still a potential problem: These batteries can deliver a lot of current - way more current than the USB Regen would ever need, and potentially enough current for an arc to air-jump between two traces on the PCB or burn out a relay or who knows?

 

The "20C" rating seen on the battery at the link you provided is a measure of the battery's continuous current capability. Just take its mAh rating, divide by 1000, then multiply by the C rating. For the battery in question, that's 5000 / 1000 * 20 = 100 Amps! And that's 100 Amps continuous, without overheating the battery.

 

Ideally, we'd have a current-limiting circuit of some kind, in between the battery and the USB Regen, but with every device for which I've used such powerful batteries, I've put calls into the designers to ask if they think it's OK and been given the green light (from Jan Meier, for his Corda Stepdance portable amp, and from Jan Plummer, for his TBI MG3 speaker amp, for example).

 

A safer approach in the absence of a current limiter would be to just buy a couple of smaller 7.4V 2S LiPo batteries that typically won't have so high a C rating.

 

This 2400 mAH battery, for example, has a 5C rating, which means it can deliver only 12A (vs. 100A) continuous. (2400 mAh / 1000 * 5 = 12 amps continuous)

 

One could be charging while the other is in use.

 

:-)

 

Mike

[zilch0md]

^^ Thanks for your most recent post, above, soundbloke!

 

Mike

[Superdad]

btw JS' reasoning above now has me idly wondering if the (much-speculated-upon) powering upgrade option for the REGEN may involve a LiPo battery pack retrofitted with "a large cap, feeding a good regulator feeding an intermediate sized cap" (+ perhaps a choke to reduce the noise getting back into the AC mains), in which case the stock Mean Well can be called upon to charge this battery?

 

Nah, probably too conventional and off the mark completely once again lol, but it's always a fun exercise to wildly speculate and dream about whatever is being cooked up in that garage of theirs

 

You are right, too conventional. Besides, I hate batteries. Bad for the environment.

[jtwrace]

You are right, too conventional. Besides, I hate batteries. Bad for the environment.

 

If only you would move out of CA. ;-)

[wanta911]

Got my Amber today.

 

My setup is:

 

Auralic Aries >>> Totaldac D1 USB cable >>> Regen >>> DEQX PreMate

 

All working flawlessly from the start

[seeteeyou]

There are a couple of problems with using RC LiPo packs...

 

This 2400 mAH battery, for example, has a 5C rating, which means it can deliver only 12A (vs. 100A) continuous. (2400 mAh / 1000 * 5 = 12 amps continuous)

 

One could be charging while the other is in use.

 

:-)

 

Mike

Thanks Mike. How about a couple of 18650 cells since they're also ranging from 6V to 8.4V?

 

http://www.amazon.com/Holder-Build-Protection-Circuit-Module/dp/B00HHUFTDY

 

Then terminate that with Oyaide DC-2.1G

 

 

---

Some battery packs are also available

 

http://www.tenergy.com/Site/7-4V-Li-Ion-Battery-Packs

[Superdad]

Then terminate that with Oyaide DC-2.1G

 

You like those connectors? I might be Oyaide's biggest North American wholesale buyer of the DC-2.5G and DC-2.1G. The one you pictured is their old style, before they added the knurling on the shell. Here is a mass of DC cables I slaved over for 14 hours this past weekend:

[seeteeyou]

You like those connectors? I might be Oyaide's biggest North American wholesale buyer of the DC-2.5G and DC-2.1G. The one you pictured is their old style, before they added the knurling on the shell. Here is a mass of DC cables I slaved over for 14 hours this past weekend:

That's such an impressive amount of work, mission accomplished and congrats.

 

I do like DC-2.1G since Oyaide might be the only decent choice for nice DC connectors.

 

---

And I also found more 7.4V battery packs, hopefully without cheap switching regulators

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/ANSAI-Rechargable-7-4-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Battery/dp/B003VXABM0

http://www.amazon.com/Venture-Heated-Clothing-Li-Ion-Battery/dp/B006RQCLRG

 

They looked pretty much like 18650 cells in 2S1P / 2S2P / 2S3P packages etc.

 

http://www.gerbing.eu/bestanden/handleidingen/eng/Manual_B7V-2500.pdf

http://www.gerbing.eu/en/products/7v-products/7v-batteries/bat-li-722-7-4v-2-2a-oplaadbare-batterij

http://www.amazon.com/Gerbings-7v-Lithium-Battery-Red/dp/B00J13T08A

http://www.amazon.com/Gerbing-Extended-Life-Rechargeable-Battery-Remote/dp/B00EEJ1OU8

 

http://www.thewarmingstore.com/gerbing-extended-life-battery-with-remote.html

http://www.thewarmingstore.com/gerbings-heated-clothing-rechargeable-battery.html

http://www.thewarmingstore.com/gerbing-lithium-ion-battery.html

http://www.thewarmingstore.com/gerbing-next-gen-battery.html

[4est]

I haven't bothered looking much into it, but I am thinking I would try this route- http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/202/Ioxus-iKIT60MM_121019-471074.pdf

 

 

That's such an impressive amount of work, mission accomplished and congrats.

 

I do like DC-2.1G since Oyaide might be the only decent choice for nice DC connectors.

 

---

And I also found more 7.4V battery packs, hopefully without cheap switching regulators

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/ANSAI-Rechargable-7-4-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Battery/dp/B003VXABM0

Amazon.com: Venture Heated Clothing 7.4 Volt Li-Ion Battery - White: Automotive

 

They looked pretty much like 18650 cells in 2S1P / 2S2P / 2S3P packages etc.

 

http://www.gerbing.eu/bestanden/handleidingen/eng/Manual_B7V-2500.pdf

BAT-LI-722 7.4V 2.2A Oplaadbare Batterij - Gerbing: Leading in Heated Clothing

Amazon.com: Gerbings 7v Lithium Battery(Red): Automotive

http://www.amazon.com/Gerbing-Extended-Life-Rechargeable-Battery-Remote/dp/B00EEJ1OU8

 

Gerbing 7V Extended Life Battery with Remote - The Warming Store

Gerbing's Heated Clothing Extended-Life Rechargeable Battery

Gerbing's Rechargeable Li-ion Battery - Replacement Battery

Gerbing Next Gen Lithium Battery Pack - The Warming Store

[rah50]

Urrrgh!

 

Received my HD-Plex LPS last night and hooked it right up to the Regen Green. Nothing, bad 9 volt output.

 

Wish I could have afforded a JS-2!

[pl_svn]

please don't tell me so: I'm waiting for one (to power my NAS and ethernet switch)

 

Regen, though, powered by a JS-2

[rah50]

Excellent service though! Larry responded within 30 minutes of my email saying a new unit will be in FedEx today. Can't complain too much except I was excited to hear what the HD-Plex would add to the Regen. The HD-Plex will be powering my Regen, Fiber Media Converter and my HQ Player NAA.

[pl_svn]

I asked for a double 12v rail so mine is taking longer

 

once it finally gets here (next week, I hope) will compare Regen powered by JS-2 and HD-Plex and report

[REShaman]

Urrrgh!

 

Received my HD-Plex LPS last night and hooked it right up to the Regen Green. Nothing, bad 9 volt output.

 

Wish I could have afforded a JS-2!

 

Hello rah50,

 

Understand your pain. When it comes to electronic equipment, anything is possible. I recall ordering a Marchand Electronic Crossover to add to my system to handle high pass to my KEFs and low pass to my JL Audio F112.

 

Excited to receive the Marchand, hot off the press, in the first few seconds after properly setting up the Marchand, the next experience was a screeching heart-stopping sound through my system. I was aghast! And feared my system had blown up.

 

It turned out that the power supply in the brand new Marchand was defective and no one, in my opinion, bothered to test it, or, between the test and the delivery, the power supply decided to wait for me to start it up and then blow up. I returned it and requested a refund. My solution was to spent the price of a Bryston at nearly five (5) times the cost of the Marchand. That was in 2011. Not one issue with the Bryston. And stuff happens!

 

I am awaiting delivery or at least notice of for the JS-2, MMK, Regen Amber and DC cable to power Regen from JS-2.

 

Sorry for your troubles. Good fortune with whatever you choose as your next step.

 

Best,

Richard

 

PS

Did not notice your resolution until after I posted. All's well that ends well. (Smile.)

[Superdad]

It turned out that the power supply in the brand new Marchand was defective and no one, in my opinion, bothered to test it, or, between the test and the delivery, the power supply decided to wait for me to start it up and then blow up.

 

100% (i.e. EVERY unit) full test and multi-hour thermal burn-in has always been my operating procedure. Only one field failure (intermittent caused by bad solder joint) ever so far with JS-2.

 

Every REGEN gets a quick test too (that's the sort of piece that either works or doesn't, so no burn-in testing required; found 1 bad board in 600 so far).\

 

--Alex C.

 

P.S. Richard: Your JS-2 and other goodies will be shipping this Friday, right on schedule, along with the units of the other 5 people promised JS-2s for the 19th. I love working hard towards self-imposed deadlines--as long as I am realistic for myself.

[EuroDriver]

The NAD D3020 is well known for so so almost poor performance over USB. It usually sounds best with Toslink input

 

Well Corning USB + Regen Green knocks the SQ out of the ball park for this little DAC amp with Hypex power amp module. Oodles more bass, and more clarity

 

HQ Player 3.8 Beta 3 on Win 8.1 in Realtime priority on Surface Pro 3 upsampling to 24/96 Polysinc and TPDF. Regen powered by JS-2 at 7 volts

 

The NAD D3020 would not work with the Corning by itself, but with the Regen no problem

 

Now I know what to get my 2 sons for Christmas :-)