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Should blind testing discussion be banned on CA? POLL


Should blind testing discussion be banned on CA?  

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Sorry, assuming you are human, your ears can fail you too.

 

I never said it had to be all or nothing. Stop putting words in my mouth. It can be both. When the two disagree which one are you going to think is right? Well it will depend on the circumstances. Maybe weasel words to you, but more like someone who knows it is rarely black or white.

 

Ah - I see now what you are truly irritated about. It is that everyone isn't agreeing with you on a subject you see so clearly and plainly.

 

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, like usual. Are you willing to admit that sighted listening tests at least *can be* as valid as DBTs, and that a DBT can and sometimes will return false results? If so, the whole issue just goes away, doesn't it?

 

If you contend that *only* DBTs can be used to judge a piece of equipment, and all results other than DBTs are bogus or "highly suspect" or some other wording that means anecdotal and unacceptable, then I am afraid that a lot of people are not going to agree with you. Regardless of how many times or ways you restate it, or how obvious it seems to you.

 

Yours,

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Yes, that's very effective. Chris does give thread starters leeway in that regard, and I've used it in some threads I've started to tell people in no uncertain terms that the direction they're taking is unwelcome.

 

I have to disagree about the "Chris... give thread starters leeway in that regard" part. My experience of the unwritten rule, that a thread starter (OP) is allowed to set the terms of behavior in 'his' thread, is that it evolved out of the community organically, blessed by usage, a little discussion, and general acceptance, of which Chris was just another vote. Through I don't recall the initial seed that sparked it.

 

 

Glad to see this thread back on topic. I am sick to death of all the yak about DBT details :(

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I have to disagree about the "Chris... give thread starters leeway in that regard" part. My experience of the unwritten rule

 

I recall Chris stating this explicitly.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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My experience of the unwritten rule, that a thread starter (OP) is allowed to set the terms of behavior in 'his' thread,

 

I don't think our thread starter in this case was even able to explain what this thread is to be about. Asking didn't help either.

It is a poll which is all I can tell.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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If your definition of "troll" is "anyone who wants to discuss ABX," then I suppose that's a big problem. I on the other hand think overuse of the t-word is at least as big a problem.

 

I try not to think of people as 'trolls', but recognize that some posters engage in troll-like, or trolling behavior. We may all have been guilty of that at some time or other. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, Dennis rolled out a couple of trolling posts in his own thread :)

 

It is when someones posts are all or mostly troll-like that we start to think of them as being 'trolls', rather then just acting like one, and it becomes hard to shift gears when they then post something non-troll-like. My point is to focus on the posting behavior, regardless of the subject of them, to effectively deal with that form of unwanted forum behavior (both objective and subjective POV's have been guilty).

 

 

Seems to me it's easy enough not to participate in a thread that's headed somewhere you think unprofitable; easy enough to react quite reasonably or, again, simply ignore it when someone brings up DBT in a thread in which you're already participating. Too often the first reflex is to argue...

 

Sure, you can tuck your tail between your legs and slink away from a sinking thread. But trying to save what is good about the thread, seems the better option to me.

 

Case in point is the late, lamented "Who's afraid of DBT's" thread. That sucker was headed downhill from post #1, it was full of trolling, ugly responses, ill will, etc. Yet, as you have commented to me, it contains some of the richest information and links of any thread concerning DBT's on CA ! Did you walk away from it ? No. You stuck it out, suffering abuse from the OP, even as you tried to keep him engaged in the technical discussion, and even feel welcome. My guess is that you probably feel the effort was worth it*. So I'm not sure why you seem to be advocating the opposite of your own behavior ?

 

 

* Too bad Chris threw out all that good info with the bathwater :(

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I try not to think of people as 'trolls', but recognize that some posters engage in troll-like, or trolling behavior.

 

Me. In here.

Now I am going to read your post.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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If I may be serious for one post ...

 

Case in point is the late, lamented "Who's afraid of DBT's" thread. That sucker was headed downhill from post #1, it was full of trolling, ugly responses, ill will, etc. Yet, as you have commented to me, it contains some of the richest information and links of any thread concerning DBT's on CA !

 

This is not how I see it for part I. For part II we only agree (without really seeing it). IIRC that thread started out with me responding very similar as I do now in here. Say trolling in itself. Now maybe I am wrong, but what came from it was a very focused response to and from everyone, just because "something" deemed it necessary.

 

/serious

 

Doesn't happen in this thread. Not at all.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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* Too bad Chris threw out all that good info with the bathwater :(

 

I don't think so: they may still be retrievable and stored somewhere. They are just not visible currently.

 

So, one day, maybe. Or ask Chris politely and be patient.

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I recall Chris stating this explicitly.

 

I do not, but then I can't say that I've read every thread on CA for the last 4 years :)

 

Can you point me to where he said that ?? I doubt it. I am not doubting your word, only saying that that information is not readily accessible to us. So that thritio would not have known of the 'rule' unless someone commented on it.

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Case in point is the late, lamented "Who's afraid of DBT's" thread. That sucker was headed downhill from post #1, it was full of trolling, ugly responses, ill will, etc.

 

Yet, as you have commented to me, it contains some of the richest information and links of any thread concerning DBT's on CA ! Did you walk away from it ? No. You stuck it out, suffering abuse from the OP, even as you tried to keep him engaged in the technical discussion, and even feel welcome.

 

Think about that for a minute. "[H]eaded downhill from post #1," yet "contains some of the richest information and links of any thread concerning DBT's on CA!" I guess it wasn't downhill all the way then. Participants obviously helped to provide that information and those links and give some positive value to the thread.

 

I did not feel abused by the OP (perhaps I'm just not smart enough to recognize it when it happens); you can ask mmerrill if he did.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Can you point me to where he said that ?? I doubt it. I am not doubting your word, only saying that that information is not readily accessible to us.

 

Nope.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I don't think our thread starter in this case was even able to explain what this thread is to be about. Asking didn't help either.

 

Peter,

 

thritio posted about 1/3rd of the way into the thread (and again later), in a bemused manner, that his goals for the thread had already been met and all the rest was just more fun for him.

 

I suspect that his 'goal' was to identify the teams; who was on his side, and who was against him (I doubt he recognized any middle ground). I thought that he didn't want to reveal this secret and was cagey while being amused at fooling us.

 

After he knew who 'played' for what 'teams', he could proselytize, criticize, whine about being persecuted, play the martyr, and bask in the adulation of the DBT camp followers, while posting all over CA like kudzu.. In other words what he had really wanted all along.

 

While it may have seemed to some like he was coming around toward the end, I seriously doubt it. I reached out to him last Friday, but he did not respond. Then I noticed him popping up in most of the 'New Posts' threads, and those things bummed me out enough to stay away from CA all Saturday. By Sunday he was gone...

 

I would be very happy, except for the collateral damage...

 

 

So where the hell is Chris C's explanation ????

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Think about that for a minute...

 

I thought about it when i wrote it :) I don't have a big problem holding two (or more) mutually exclusive ideas in my head at the same time. And that thread had lots of conflicting ideas and aspects !

 

BTW, Nice deflection of the point from your 'do as I say not as I do', to my 'starts bad, ends up (kindda) good'. :)

 

 

I did not feel abused by the OP (perhaps I'm just not smart enough to recognize it when it happens); you can ask mmerrill if he did.

 

Some of his posts to you just made me cringe, where he attacked you on some ridiculous small point, after you had time and time again defended his posts, not changing his 'attack enemies' tone in the slightest :(

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thritio posted about 1/3rd of the way

 

Dave, thank you for your time. I could not be worth it. But the thread I was talking about with no clear objective is the one we are typing in right now ...

 

 

I don't think our thread starter in this case was even able to explain what this thread is to be about. Asking didn't help either.

It is a poll which is all I can tell.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

Link to comment

Some of his posts to you just made me cringe, where he attacked you on some ridiculous small point, after you had time and time again defended his posts, not changing his 'attack enemies' tone in the slightest :(

 

I'm a big boy (gettin' kinda old, actually), so no one needs to worry on my behalf, except those none-too-rare times I say something dumb.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Dave, thank you for your time. I could not be worth it. But the thread I was talking about with no clear objective is the one we are typing in right now ...

 

My reading is that Dennis wondered whether we could have any sort of decent discussion about anything to do with DBT, or whether any mere mention of it would provoke something like this (about 1 minute in):

 

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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re: cringing

 

I'm a big boy (gettin' kinda old, actually), so no one needs to worry on my behalf,

 

Jud,

 

I feel what I feel, regardless of your reactions.

 

Perhaps, as a lawyer, you no longer have any feelings, so he never had a chance of getting to you ?

:)

 

 

 

 

(please, please, it's only a joke, a bad joke !!!!)

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re: cringing

 

 

 

Jud,

 

I feel what I feel, regardless of your reactions.

 

Perhaps, as a lawyer, you no longer have any feelings, so he never had a chance of getting to you ?

:)

 

 

 

 

(please, please, it's only a joke, a bad joke !!!!)

 

I am an attorney, and thus know more and funnier lawyer jokes than you. ;)

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I am an attorney, and thus know more and funnier lawyer jokes than you. ;)

 

I'm there with you totally on this, Jud. :)

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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No it should not be banned, but it also should not hijack threads where people are discussing listening experiences and differences they say they do hear.

Some DBT proponents can be like rude guests who crash a wine tasting party and insist that unless everybody puts on a blindfold and conforms to rigorous procedure then they are all deluding themselves and that there opinions on which wines taste better are just worthless anecdotes. Never mind that half the people there are vintners and the other half are sommeliers with decades of experience. Such incidents can become a big turnoff to new people just discovering fine wine tasting.

 

Aaaaah.....interesting example using the subjective experience of wine tasting.

 

And correct me but...isn't it exactly what happened where the fancy pants abilities to distinguish premium wine were exposed for nonsensical posturing?

 

Listen Alex, I get it....really I do. The mystique of tweeking is held in the highest of reverence for you and the success of your business. It's really a niche' market and shrinking quickly. Anything you and others who share your position can do is certainly a worthwhile effort. Noble work certainly recognized by our host who permits you to tag your signature with a link to your company.

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I am an attorney, and thus know more and funnier lawyer jokes than you. ;)

 

The attorney said to the lawyer that he was a crook

The lawyer said to the attorney that he was a thief

The judge said now that you introduce yourself can we proceed with the case.

 


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Peter,

 

thritio posted about 1/3rd of the way into the thread (and again later), in a bemused manner, that his goals for the thread had already been met and all the rest was just more fun for him.

 

I suspect that his 'goal' was to identify the teams; who was on his side, and who was against him (I doubt he recognized any middle ground). I thought that he didn't want to reveal this secret and was cagey while being amused at fooling us.

 

After he knew who 'played' for what 'teams', he could proselytize, criticize, whine about being persecuted, play the martyr, and bask in the adulation of the DBT camp followers, while posting all over CA like kudzu.. In other words what he had really wanted all along.

 

While it may have seemed to some like he was coming around toward the end, I seriously doubt it. I reached out to him last Friday, but he did not respond. Then I noticed him popping up in most of the 'New Posts' threads, and those things bummed me out enough to stay away from CA all Saturday. By Sunday he was gone...

 

I would be very happy, except for the collateral damage...

 

 

So where the hell is Chris C's explanation ????

 

Dave, does he own an explanation, he after all "owns" this business. Or as the saying goes "he is the master of his domain...." :)

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place". George Bernard Shaw.

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My reading is that Dennis wondered whether we could have any sort of decent discussion about anything to do with DBT, or whether any mere mention of it would provoke something like this (about 1 minute in):

 

Finally someone who understood perfectly what the purpose of the poll was.

 

I also have come to the conclusion that in general in the open forum we cannot have discussion about it at a level of decency and usefulness that I would prefer. As I have written earlier, I do consider blind testing a method of last resort. So no need to go to the last resort on a forum like this.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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