LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

[wklie]

@Liam 1. Yes.  See this post:

 

2. You may compare the Leedh digital volume against the pre-amp analog volume and let us know which sounds better to you.

 

3. I don't think there are compatibility concerns, but in extreme cases some setups could have too much gain (limiting the usable volume range) while others have too little gain (not loud enough).

[wklie]

16 minutes ago, further said:

The presentation appears more dynamic but loudness can very much influence that perception.

 

Yes, please use a free sound meter app on smartphone to keep the sound level similar when doing A/B comparison.

 

16 minutes ago, further said:

slide bar for Leedh like is present for Volume.

 

When Leedh volume setting is enabled, your main volume slide bar is the Leedh volume control.

 

The Max Volume % setting is a different thing to protect speakers, it works regardless of whether Leedh volume is enabled or not.

[wklie]

From user PM about his Lumin T2:

Quote

I am impressed with the subtle yet noticeable improvement with the new firmware.

 

[wklie]

From Lumin X1 user https://www.audioshark.org/lumin-169/lumin-leedh-ing-way-18376-page2.html#post304499

 

Quote

installing the V13 Firmware and activating the Ledh volume and the Lumin app, I managed to improve the sound in general. All the changes I notice
1. Quieter background
2. Treble much smoother
3. The precent bass but without making a ball of bass.
4. The Lumin X1 sounded exceedingly good before the V13 but now it sounds exceptional, I enjoy the music more.

 

Quote

After installing V13 the treble is softer and the bass is present but does not rumble as before, it is more controlled.

 

[dark]

10 hours ago, wklie said:

 

I would invite Lumin users to try it and let us know what you think of it - better, same, or worse than your preamp.

Not one user in Russia, as I know, has not received a new firmware.

[wklie]

3 minutes ago, dark said:

Not one user in Russia, as I know, has not received a new firmware.

 

For users whose internet firmware upgrade is not working (due to ISP or other internet issues), please e-mail [email protected]

[wklie]

From a Lumin T2 user https://www.audioshark.org/lumin-169/lumin-leedh-ing-way-18376-page2.html#post304521

 

Quote

In my particular case, a Lumin T2, the change was very noticeable.
I really used the volume of the app, since I have an integrated valve amplifier without remote control, it is an EICO ST 40 from the 60s, which I opened from its original box back in the 90s, and I still keep it with little use, since I started using it about 8 years ago. (I do not permanently use this system, since there are other systems sharing the space).
The speakers connected to this amplifier are original Tannoy Cheviots from the late 1970s, in their second version. (with original Tannoy recone made approximately 5 years ago and crossover upgrade).

The change is really very noticeable.
- More controlled bass with greater impact.
- Greater separation of instruments
- Higher level of detail in general
- Smoother and more natural treble
- Higher level of silence.

 

It brought a lot of musicality to this particular system, now I will begin to evaluate it with my other systems, although in a brief listening with Vincent SV-700 + Tannoy 615 MKII I also share those concepts, with the obvious differences in timbre and characteristics of each of these systems.

Music is really much more enjoyable.

 

[mrkoven]

Any audible changes from V12 to V13 if using Roon and not Lumin app?

[wklie]

5 minutes ago, mrkoven said:

Any audible changes from V12 to V13 if using Roon and not Lumin app?

 

Leedh Processing Volume is supported on Lumin even if you use Roon.

[psme]

The story of LUMIN and Leedh Processing Volume Control.

 

We have a long relationship with Joël of 6Moons reviewer. We see each other during each year Munich show. During High End show 2018. Joël kept bugging me with this new end-of-the-world revolutionary new Volume Control algorithm, Leedh Processing! Frankly I was not that interested at that time. But Joël was raving about it so I kept it in mind.

 

In 2018 Sep, we had a tour visiting many dealers in Europe. We were in Paris and visited Joël setup in his home. Joël bought along the inventor of Leedh Processing and gave us a demo using their evaluation system. The difference was night and day IMO! Joël said he compared to many software and hardware (pre-amp) volume control and nothing came close.

 

But my teams were not that convinced. We audiophile all have very different taste! So the development was stalled a bit. I want to push this feature ASAP. But our engineers said from a technical point of view, it is nothing special. Just another way to do volume calculation!

 

And there was the cost issue! It's not free! Another big Hi-Fi brand charge a premium for this feature upgrade! We had discussed how to market to users. In theory we can setup a system to charge for this new feature. So the development stalled more.

 

Eventually, I said cut the crap and just do it! So we had a test version by the end of last year. Joël tried the test firmware with position feedback. It's certainly better than the original volume control in LUMIN, but there was still something not right. Leedh Processing party went to Joël's setup and did some measurement and found some volume adjustment were out of specs. Turned out our engineer took some shortcut, because that was easier (to integrate with our existing data flow) and the result "should" be the same!

 

So we re-did the whole thing from the ground up! After 6 months of hard work (to implement Leedh Processing on our whole LUMIN lineup), everyone is happy now!

 

According to our engineers, if you really study all the document from Leedh Processing web links, it's possible to work out the algorithm on your own (Sorry Leedh Processing party!). But we need to pay respect to where's credit due. So we pay license to Leedh Processing and offer free upgrade to all LUMIN users.

 

Enjoy the music!

 

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/lumin8/

 

[wklie]

7 minutes ago, psme said:

Turned out our engineer took some shortcut

 

Not me, for the record.

[psme]

IMO, use cases of Leedh Processing volume control are:

For Analog output
- normally use pre-amp or integrated amp volume control, but also very tempted to use LUMIN volume for quick adjust with the convenience. Before Leedh Processing, it's not preferable. Now we can have our cake and eat it without any ill effect.

- set pre-amp or integrated amp to unity gain (or at a fixed gain position), or use pre-amp/integrated amp "by-pass" input, then control LUMIN volume with Leedh Processing.

 

* if your pre-amp has no "by-pass" input, and you want to connect LUMIN player directly to the power amp, you may consider add a simple audio switch device like this:

https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/nobsound-3-in-1-out-xlr-audio-switch-review.11062/

And connect both pre-amp and LUMIN to the switch, then to the power amp.

- direct connect LUMIN to power amp and control LUMIN volume with Leedh Processing.

For Digital output
- before Leedh Processing, user is advised to NOT use volume control in LUMIN. Now it's free to use with Leedh Processing. User can try which way do they prefer.

The theory of Leedh Processing is to avoid too many bit of information. Because many least significant bits will be lose in DAC conversion, hence Leedh Processing try to use as little (number of) bit as possible to represent volume value, so that when the audio data reach DAC, many least significant bits are already at zero value, then the bit truncation in DAC conversion doesn't matter and the integrity of audio information is retained (lossless).

These are the 2 very different approach toward volume control calculation. Many bits (64bit for example) approach aims for accuracy (but some data will be lost in DAC conversion), while Leedh Processing approach aim for exactness (use as little bit as possible for an exact volume number).

The proof is in the listening! And it seems by actual listening, most people prefer the sound of Leedh Processing!
 

OK, I'll shut up now!

[Joel6m]

Hi all,

 

I am not a very active member of this forum but just to provide you with some further details:

It's important first to understand that the interest of the Leedh Processing is to purely withdraw the analog preamplifier from the playback chain. It's a very easy experience and it's completely meaningful about the level of coloration and distortion released by the best preamplifiers. At the early beginnings of the Leedh Processing tests, I had the opportunity to compare its efficiency and transparency versus some of the very best devices like the Ypsilon PST100 MK2 or the Robert Koda Takumi K10 for instance. All have been outclassed by this simple digital volume processing.

Unfortunately, sometimes people don't look for the ultimate transparency and will find that their colored preamp bring warmer voices, more convincing bass or whatever... It's a matter of choice and I completely respect this appoach. But if you look for the ultimate transparency, especially for classical music, which is in my opinion a more demanding musical genre in terms of high fidelity, then the Lumin streamers are definitely a highly commendable choice as they offer the best volume setting existing on the market for free.

I would like to precise also that I have found during my review of the X1 and Lumin Amps a bit more transparency when you let the maximum volume in the Lumin settings at full scale (100%) using only the usual circular controller on top of the Lumin app. I do not understand why, as Lumin engineers have used exactly the same attenuation values than the full scale volume, but that makes a difference in my system. So I would recommend to not use the maximum volume option for evaluation purposes.

If you desire to compare your analog preamplifier whith the Leedh processing, also ensure that you can set you analog preamp at full volume (adjusting then the desired attenuation from the Lumin app). You will then be able to reverse the test with the Lumin app set at 100% and the attenuation adjusted on the knob of your analog preamp. If you don't set your analog preamplifier at its max volume, then you should keep the distortion of your analog preamp. So in that case, it's better to directly withdraw your preamplifier from the playback chain to assess the performance of the Leedh Processing, especially if you use a tube preamplifier which generate noise at max volume...

 

My 2 cents...

Cheers,

Joël

 

 

[matthias]

1 hour ago, Joel6m said:

Hi all,

 

I am not a very active member of this forum but just to provide you with some further details:

It's important first to understand that the interest of the Leedh Processing is to purely withdraw the analog preamplifier from the playback chain. It's a very easy experience and it's completely meaningful about the level of coloration and distortion released by the best preamplifiers. At the early beginnings of the Leedh Processing tests, I had the opportunity to compare its efficiency and transparency versus some of the very best devices like the Ypsilon PST100 MK2 or the Robert Koda Takumi K10 for instance. All have been outclassed by this simple digital volume processing.

Unfortunately, sometimes people don't look for the ultimate transparency and will find that their colored preamp bring warmer voices, more convincing bass or whatever... It's a matter of choice and I completely respect this appoach. But if you look for the ultimate transparency, especially for classical music, which is in my opinion a more demanding musical genre in terms of high fidelity, then the Lumin streamers are definitely a highly commendable choice as they offer the best volume setting existing on the market for free.

I would like to precise also that I have found during my review of the X1 and Lumin Amps a bit more transparency when you let the maximum volume in the Lumin settings at full scale (100%) using only the usual circular controller on top of the Lumin app. I do not understand why, as Lumin engineers have used exactly the same attenuation values than the full scale volume, but that makes a difference in my system. So I would recommend to not use the maximum volume option for evaluation purposes.

If you desire to compare your analog preamplifier whith the Leedh processing, also ensure that you can set you analog preamp at full volume (adjusting then the desired attenuation from the Lumin app). You will then be able to reverse the test with the Lumin app set at 100% and the attenuation adjusted on the knob of your analog preamp. If you don't set your analog preamplifier at its max volume, then you should keep the distortion of your analog preamp. So in that case, it's better to directly withdraw your preamplifier from the playback chain to assess the performance of the Leedh Processing, especially if you use a tube preamplifier which generate noise at max volume...

 

I think gain matching of the complete set-up is most important as well because the Leedh Processing is not lossless with greater attenuation than 30dB.

 

Matt

[wobba]

I recently upgraded my T2 from firmware V12.0 to 13.0 and am convinced that there’s some divine intervention going on with the new firmware ☺  My T2 is connected directly to Purifi based amplification and speakers. Distortion is exceptionally low across my entire audio chain allowing it to resolve detail to a high level. I was already impressed by the performance of the T2 prior to the firmware upgrade but V13.0 with Leedh active has taken it up a notch, particularly when playing music at low to mid volumes (via Roon). The difference is not night and day since the T2 was already exceptional but the improved transparency is, nonetheless, very evident to me. Thank you sincerely to team Lumin for graciously offering this at no cost to your customers.

[BlueSkyy]

3 hours ago, psme said:

 

https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/nobsound-3-in-1-out-xlr-audio-switch-review.11062/

 

For some reason, for me at least, this link was broken.  This is what I've chosen to use:

 

https://www.kramerav.com/us/product/vs-4x

 

The switch is very well built and appears to use high quality parts.  One of two of the inputs is from the X1.  The other input is from the A/V processor that I use.  The output, of course, goes to the front L/R mono amps.

 

Thanks to PSME and Joel6M for providing some very interesting, and important, background.

[Joel6m]

3 hours ago, matthias said:

 

I think gain matching of the complete set-up is most important as well because the Leedh Processing is not lossless with greater attenuation than 30dB.

 

Matt

Yes in absolute terms you are correct, but you also should consider than the 30 dB attenuation is already a lot and that the lower values are less consuming in terms of bit length than most of the usual digital volume controllers available to the market...

Cheers.

Joël

[Liam]

11 hours ago, wklie said:

@Liam 1. Yes.  See this post:

 

2. You may compare the Leedh digital volume against the pre-amp analog volume and let us know which sounds better to you.

 

3. I don't think there are compatibility concerns, but in extreme cases some setups could have too much gain (limiting the usable volume range) while others have too little gain (not loud enough).

Thanks Peter for the clarifications. I am unable to turn the volume of my valve integrated full on due to noise, but I have turned it higher than normal and with the volume limiter set to 100% and normal listening level of around 60 on the circular app volume I am enjoying the result. Music is barely audible at 1 on the circular volume, so settings are probably optimum in the circumstances.  I upgraded my dac chip in the last week and with the V13 firmware upgrade as well there is a lot going on here, but I will be continuing with this setup while I investigate trading my integrated for a superior power amp. Despite my setup not being optimum I perceive welcome overall improvements.  Thanks to all for making this beneficial technology available, and at no cost will endear Lumin to many. 

[barrows]

5 hours ago, matthias said:

 

I think gain matching of the complete set-up is most important as well because the Leedh Processing is not lossless with greater attenuation than 30dB.

 

Matt

It should be noted that this holds true for analog volume controls as well.  An analog volume control is far from "perfect", and analog volume controls add their own noise and distortion to the signal.  The more attenuation one applies with an analog volume control, the more noise it will add (this is resistor noise, which increases with the amount of resistance).  So proper system gain matching is always advised for best performance.

An exception would be the analog volume controls which adjust the gain of the circuit directly, rather than just being an attenuation stage (Ayre, Mola Mola, PS Audio, maybe some others).  But it is important to note that these types of volume controls are not perfect either, generally speaking, every circuit is going to have a certain range of gain in which it performs its best, and large deviations away from that gain level will come with increased distortion and noise.

 

All this being said, in my experience, one can get an increase in transparency and overall fidelity, for sure, no matter how you achieve it, by getting rid of the preamp (assuming the DAC has a robust enough output stage to drive the amplifier's input stage properly).  And I feel, that given good implementation, and gain matching, a digital volume control, or an analog one, is not going to result in audible sonic problems if critical listening happens at -20 dB or above.  Just avoid pairing an amp with 30 dB of gain and 500 watts of power with 93 dB efficient speakers!

 

[wklie]

From Lumin X1 user PM at volume 100:

Quote

I worried that our source (Spotify) might not be good enough to reveal any difference. As things turned out, I was wrong.

 

We both heard an improvement in overall clarity. It's most noticeable in the midrange. There is more "presence" as if a veil had been lifted. (Less noise?) Bass notes might be a bit better differentiated. The stereo image is definitely bigger (height, width, depth). The system "sings" as if all connections had been cleaned and tightened.

 

[pl_svn]

5 minutes ago, barrows said:

An exception would be the analog volume controls which adjust the gain of the circuit directly, rather than just being an attenuation stage

... and what about a VC that works by, as its designer says, "variating DAC's voltage reference plan"? (Metrum Adagio)

[barrows]

2 minutes ago, pl_svn said:

... and what about a VC that works by, as its designer says, "variating DAC's voltage reference plan"? (Metrum Adagio)

I have no experience with this approach, and I have seen no measurements of a DAC which uses this approach to confirm or deny how well it works.  I can think of many potential problems with such an approach, such as varying impedance on the Vref supply rails which is contrary to my experience of how to get performance out of a DAC, but without measuring and seeing the results there is no way to know for sure.

[pl_svn]

ok, thanks

 

btw... as far as I understand it... this approach can only be used in r2r NOS DACs, as the Adagio is

[matthias]

22 minutes ago, barrows said:

It should be noted that this holds true for analog volume controls as well.  An analog volume control is far from "perfect", and analog volume controls add their own noise and distortion to the signal.  The more attenuation one applies with an analog volume control, the more noise it will add (this is resistor noise, which increases with the amount of resistance).  So proper system gain matching is always advised for best performance.

An exception would be the analog volume controls which adjust the gain of the circuit directly, rather than just being an attenuation stage (Ayre, Mola Mola, PS Audio, maybe some others).  But it is important to note that these types of volume controls are not perfect either, generally speaking, every circuit is going to have a certain range of gain in which it performs its best, and large deviations away from that gain level will come with increased distortion and noise.

 

All this being said, in my experience, one can get an increase in transparency and overall fidelity, for sure, no matter how you achieve it, by getting rid of the preamp (assuming the DAC has a robust enough output stage to drive the amplifier's input stage properly).  And I feel, that given good implementation, and gain matching, a digital volume control, or an analog one, is not going to result in audible sonic problems if critical listening happens at -20 dB or above.  Just avoid pairing an amp with 30 dB of gain and 500 watts of power with 93 dB efficient speakers!

 

 

This time we agree 🙂

 

Matt

[wolfenstein]

I am new owner of Lumin M1 - very happy with the purchase!

Using it together with Revel Performa3 F206 - it sound very good, nice and clear.

 

I have some question - is it possible to connect a subwoofer? (in previous setup i was using one, and bass was a little bit more present).

Maybe there is a way to use those USB ports+converter for sound out, i think i read this in some review...

Also, maybe in the future i will buy a dedicated amp - sound out will be great.