LUMIN - Audiophile Network Music Player

[Ropet]

13 hours ago, psme said:

The theory of Leedh Processing is to avoid too many bit of information. Because many least significant bits will be lose in DAC conversion, hence Leedh Processing try to use as little (number of) bit as possible to represent volume value

Maybe I misunderstood and if so please correct....

 

I read you sentence as Leedh filter out some information like 24 bit will be transferred to a lower figure, or is it the frequency of bits/sec that will be lowered. How does it deal with DSD Native vs DSD DoP?
 

13 hours ago, Joel6m said:

I have found during my review of the X1 and Lumin Amps a bit more transparency when you let the maximum volume in the Lumin settings at full scale (100%) using only the usual circular controller on top of the Lumin app.

Here is also something I do not get fully. When looking at Lumin’s homepage they write:

 

Note: Leedh Processing has no effect when LUMIN volume is set at 100%

[BlueSkyy]

Lumin X1 on F/W v13.0.  Maximum volume setting question:  I have my X1 set to run with the Volume Control: On, Leedh Processing Volume:  On,  Main Volume:  50.  Max Volume % is at 78.

 

When I try and set Max Volume % set to  80 I can do so but when I get out of the Lumin X1 settings page and go back in I find the Max Volume % is "automagically" set back to 78.  Is there some relationship between the Max Volume % and the Main Volume control that does not allow certain settings to be applied?

 

If there's a formula that must be adhered to please let us know.

 

Thank you!

[wklie]

2 hours ago, BlueSkyy said:

 find the Max Volume % is "automagically" set back to 78

 

This is not supposed to happen, and I'm not unable to reproduce it.  Probably an app timing affected by WiFi issue.

[wklie]

On 6/3/2020 at 10:09 PM, pl_svn said:

almost for sure better than Roon's vc

 

Here's response from Roon Labs CTO:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/lumin-music-leedh-processing/109190/51?u=wklie

 

Posting this for information only, and for interested to parties to read both sides of the argument.

 

I do not agree with the technical view in this post, but what I believe does not matter.  Ultimately it is up to users to decide whether the implementation of this technology in Lumin gives our users better SQ or not.

[wklie]

9 hours ago, wolfenstein said:

I am new owner of Lumin M1 - very happy with the purchase!

Using it together with Revel Performa3 F206 - it sound very good, nice and clear.

 

I have some question - is it possible to connect a subwoofer? (in previous setup i was using one, and bass was a little bit more present).

Maybe there is a way to use those USB ports+converter for sound out, i think i read this in some review...

Also, maybe in the future i will buy a dedicated amp - sound out will be great.

 

To connect a subwoofer to M1, you must use a subwoofer that has high level input because M1 only has speaker outputs.

 

The M1 USB-RCA adapter is for RCA input, not output.

 

If you buy a dedicated amp, you will need to use a different model of Lumin such as T2.

[wklie]

1 hour ago, wklie said:

 

This is not supposed to happen, and I'm not unable to reproduce it.  Probably an app timing affected by WiFi issue.

 

Edit: I'm unable to reproduce it.

[wklie]

7 hours ago, Ropet said:

Here is also something I do not get fully. When looking at Lumin’s homepage they write:

 

Note: Leedh Processing has no effect when LUMIN volume is set at 100%

 

Leedh Processing Volume is a volume attenuation algorithm.  It reduces the volume.  If you use max volume, there is no need to reduce it and therefore no need for Leedh Processing Volume.

 

(Likewise in typical preamp, the analog volume control typically reduces the volume too.)

[wklie]

From Lumin U1 MINI user: https://www.hiendy.com/hififorum/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=135050&pid=3010193

 

Quote

I have followed your advice and turn off the auto ref and leave the dB as 0 without adjusted and higher or lower. Basically bypass the pre amp function of the RME and use it as a pure dac only. At the same time I leave Lumin volume control to On and adjusted it to 95/100. On the integrated amp side I basically turn the volume up to the point that I think it’s reasonable to listen not super loud or super low. Then I started to control the volume by using the Lumin app.

Now the sound quality was dramatically different than what I had mentioned when I first did the quick test. The soundstage is now much wider and vocal sounds much more analogue, instrument doesn’t sound dull and it sounds very analytical and musical.

 

[BlueSkyy]

1 hour ago, wklie said:

 

Edit: I'm unable to reproduce it.

In my system configuration, I am able to reproduce it with regularity.  I also noticed that if I change the Max Vol from, say, 75 to 80 and immediately change the Leedh setting from on to off or off to on, the Max Vol reverts back to 75.  This happens maybe 80% of the time.

 

I also noted that several times while playing around with these settings, the Lumin app would bail out and I'd have to restart it.  When restarting the app, the app had "forgotten" my X1 and I'd have to re-select it to get going again.

 

Also, during this "playtime" another version for firmware, 13.0a, was detected and I updated.  No change to what I am experiencing.

 

If this is a wireless timing issue, what do you recommend?  Are you aware of some parameter or anything else in one's wireless configuration that could be changed?  Do you recommend changing the setting and waiting for a period of time before using the system in a normal manner?

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

[BlueSkyy]

Feature request:  The ability to set and remember, per output (analog, USB, S/PDIF), the parameters of Max Vol % and Main Volume and maybe Leedh.

[wklie]

1 hour ago, BlueSkyy said:

Feature request:  The ability to set and remember, per output (analog, USB, S/PDIF), the parameters of Max Vol % and Main Volume and maybe Leedh.

 

Although it makes sense to me, it may create a risk for other users who do not realize or remember volume levels are different for each output, and accidentally used a much larger volume than intended.

 

As for the app problem(s), we will continue to test those issues and improve it.

[wklie]

This is an evaluation of Lumin X1 Leedh Processing Volume by Wesley Miaw of Neko Audio LLC:

Quote

I strongly prefer the new firmware with Leedh Processing Volume. There is less blurriness / quicker decay and less masking of sounds across the entire audible spectrum. The overall presentation is more balanced (more midrange presence compared to the old firmware)—I suspect because there is less distortion which was creating more noticeable additional energy in the bass and treble. With better detail retrieval and clarity, it is much easier to understand vocals and to hear minute details that were previously hidden.

That being said, I can imagine some people who do not listen to those things wondering where the bass went, having become used to or to expect more bass presence at the expense of accuracy and precision. And maybe also feeling like there’s less “air” because the treble has been cleaned up.

Sounds are more realistic with the new firmware.

My process was to listen to a minute or two from each track of my test playlist, sequentially, using the old firmware 12. I did this twice, to get acclimated to the old firmware sound and ensure it wasn’t just listening to a track a second time that was changing what I heard.

I then switched to the new firmware with Leedh Processing Volume and listened to each track again, sequentially, for a minute or two. Then switched back to the old firmware, and finally again to the new firmware as a final confirmation.

Lumin X1 -> Lumin AMP -> Magico M2. The volume was set at 55/100 the entire time. The main listening position is about 9’ from the speakers, arranged so my ears are on-axis with the tweeters. The top of the seat back is below my ears to minimize immediate reflections. Room is heavily treated so reflections are minimized. Rear surface is a blackout curtain about 5’ away from the main listening position.

Here is my test playlist. I use these tracks because they highlight / focus on specific things, and can reveal weaknesses.

Weight of the World / 壊レタ世界ノ歌
河野万里奈 NieR:Automata Original Soundtrack

神様のいうとおり
いしわたり淳治 & 砂原良徳 + やくしまるえつこ 神様のいうとおり

Cups (Pitch Perfect's “When I'm Gone”) (Pop Version)
Anna Kendrick Ultimate Pitch Perfect

ラビリンス (Album Mix)
MONDO GROSSO 何度でも新しく生まれる

1.618
BT This Binary Universe

The Demon God
Joe Hisaishi Princess Mononoke

Madder
Groove Armada Lovebox

Teardrop
Massive Attack Collected

Highly Strung
Orianthi Believe

goodblue
school food punishment amp-reflection

Force [Live]
Superfly Force

Prokofiev: Piano Concerto #2 In G Minor, Op. 16 - 3. Intermezzo: Allegro Moderato
Yuja Wang; Gustavo Dudamel: Simón Bolívar Symphony Orchestra Of Venezuela Rachmaninov: Piano Concerto #3; Prokofiev: Piano Concerto #2

기억 (Original Mix)
윤하 Someday

意味/無/ジュニーク・ニコール
SQUARE ENIX NieR:Automata Original Soundtrack

片翼の天使
植松伸夫 Distant Worlds: music from FINAL FANTASY

Magic Hour
Ahn Trio Lullaby For My Favourite Insomniac

 

[matthias]

1 hour ago, wklie said:

This is an evaluation of Lumin X1 Leedh Processing Volume by Wesley Miaw of Neko Audio LLC:

 

Quote:

"The volume was set at 55/100 the entire time."

 

Can you please shed some light on the attenuation of this volume setting?

I suppose it is more than 30dB where Leedh processing is not lossless.

Thanks

 

Matt

[wklie]

@matthias For most Lumin models (except M1), volume levels between 10-100 use 0.5dB steps.  Therefore volume 55 = (100-55) * -0.5 = -22.5dB.

 

With Leedh Processing Volume it will be close to but not exactly -22.5dB.

[BlueSkyy]

3 hours ago, wklie said:

 

Although it makes sense to me, it may create a risk for other users who do not realize or remember volume levels are different for each output, and accidentally used a much larger volume than intended.

 

As for the app problem(s), we will continue to test those issues and improve it.

Always one who sees the glass half full rather than half empty, I'll take that as having at least a 1% possibility of making it into a future build 😉  In any event, thanks for continuing to be very responsive to our needs and keeping our toys as finely tuned as possible!

[BlueSkyy]

Peter, I've had too much coffee and I can't seem to stop thinking about things, but what, if anything, does going from "Normal" to "Low", or vice versa, in the Analog Audio Output Level do to the volume processing chain and your recommendations on where to leave it set?

[wklie]

For Lumin X1 and T2, please set Analog Audio Output to Normal if it does not cause too much gain in your system.

 

---

 

If you use Lumin S1 or other Lumin analog output models with a preamp or integrated amp (i.e. not direct connect to power amp), please do this test.

Setup:
- Firmware 13
- Digital Audio Output OFF (note: not default)
- Custom Re-sampling OFF
- Volume Control ON
- Leedh Processing ON
- Max Volume % = 100
- Volume = 100

(A) Please listen to a loud pop or rock music at Analog Output Level Normal.

(B) Stop the playback. Set Analog Output Level to Low, and turn the preamp volume up by 4.5dB. Repeat the same track. (If it is not clear how much preamp volume steps correspond to 4.5dB, please use a free sound level meter app on smartphone to help tune the sound level to be similar).

Please let me know which sounds better to you.

[wklie]

From Lumin U1 MINI user @mgs PM:

Quote

I bypassed Mytek's volume and used the Mini's volume. What a great feature to have! Not only is it very convenient, but it also sounds fantastic. Great resolution and no loss of SQ in general. If anything, I would say that with Leedh enabled, the system sounds great, and equally as dynamic, also at low volumes!!

 

This is the best digital volume control I have encountered! If I had not 2 analogue sources connected to my Manhattan II, I would definitely use the Mini's Leedh volume control all the time.

 

[EvilTed]

@BlueSkyy

 

Optical in.

Analog balanced out.

No DSD upsampling ever, it loses all the bite and attack for me.

 

I made a custom DC cable for mine using Duelund 20ga.

A huge improvement over the stock but a total PITA to build.

I used 5x twisted pairs and the pins of the connectors are so close it had to be soldered under magnification.

The sleeve is natural silk sock hand dyed with organic yellow dye.

I needed something to work on over lockdown and this was a cool project.

 

[wklie]

19 hours ago, wklie said:

@matthias For most Lumin models (except M1), volume levels between 10-100 use 0.5dB steps.  Therefore volume 55 = (100-55) * -0.5 = -22.5dB.

 

With Leedh Processing Volume it will be close to but not exactly -22.5dB.

 

I'd like to add that Leedh Processing Volume at Lumin volume 55 is roughly -22.6dB, i.e. lower volume than standard by 0.1dB.

 

It is generally accepted that a little higher volume would let people perceive something to sound better.  In this particular example, Leedh Processing Volume -22.6dB is actually at a theoretical disadvantage compared to the ES9038PRO volume -22.5dB.  When a trained listener prefers a digital volume algorithm at a lower volume than another digital volume algorithm at a higher volume, I believe it validates the superiority of the former.

 

I expect objectivists will come out and argue this is just an expectation bias.  But no, what I originally asked Wesley Miaw of Neko Audio LLC to do is to compare the SQ of two firmwares, without telling him what the differences are.  He did not know he was testing Leedh Processing Volume before we announce it in public.  His report above originally referred to the two firmwares as "beta firmware" and "release firmware" - for readability I changed the "beta firmware" to "new firmware with Leedh Processing Volume" and "release firmware" to "firmware 12".

 

In another case, I sent a beta tester a firmware that decreased the volume to comply with Leedh Processing Volume, but the beta tester said it sounded louder.  I guess this is caused by lowering of noise floor due to no longer suffering losses of least significant non-zero bits by the DAC.  This was the moment I know we are doing something right.

[BlueSkyy]

6 hours ago, EvilTed said:

 

The sleeve is natural silk sock hand dyed with organic yellow dye.

I needed something to work on over lockdown and this was a cool project.

 

Very interesting and, yes, it looks like those connectors would be a challenge to solder for sure!  Where did you find the connectors and what brand are they?  I'd love to shorten the length of my cable to just what's necessary as well.

 

On another note, did you try different colors of organic dye on the silk sock to determine what was the best choice?  (Just kidding 😉).

 

Nice job!

[wklie]

Web site http://www.processing-leedh.com added a white paper and a presentation done at the last AES of beginning of June by SUPSI (Swiss university).

[wklie]

Since our Spotify Connect integration was done in late 2017, even though we've already integrated the March 2020 SDK, we will carry out a complete retest of our Spotify Connect implementation against the latest Spotify test suite for integrators to ensure the Lumin Spotify experience is as perfect as possible. This will take a period of time.

[BlueSkyy]

Regarding the Lumin app and music selection:  In the "folder view", if I select "Genre", for instance, and then drill down to a particular genre, I press and select, "Jazz" and attempt to add the entire genre to the empty Lumin play list but nothing happens.

 

Is selecting an entire "Genre" level category not possible?  Same seems to hold true for the "Artist", "Composer" or any other category as well.

 

The only thing that seems to work from the top level folder view is "Highly Rated".

 

Am I doing something wrong?

[wklie]

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