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  • joelha
    joelha

    Guest Editorial: Why did audio stop being about audio?

    How many forum threads on this site (and others) devolve into heated exchanges about whether people actually hear what they say they hear? Without “proof”, listeners are often mocked, insulted and their experiences discredited.


    Challenges range from assuming the listener has been influenced by expectation bias (I believe it will sound good, so it does sound good) to faulting his unwillingness to rely on measurements or blind testing.


    What bothers me most is reputations are attacked so casually. Everyone from Chris Connaker (one of the most decent people I’ve known in the industry) to reviewers and manufacturers are accused of lying, cheating and taking bribes. People, whom I suspect in most cases haven’t even heard the product they’re attacking, will smear the reputations of others they probably don’t know. Those who are attacked rely on their reputations to earn a living. That’s to say nothing of the personal attacks on the listeners themselves. And the attackers attack anonymously. Unless the case is black and white i.e. I sent you money and you never shipped my product or there are repeated, unresolved product defects, trying to ruin a person’s name is evil. Nothing will undo a person’s life faster and more effectively than giving him a bad reputation. And doing it anonymously and without hard evidence is cowardly and arrogant. In such cases, it’s highly likely the charge is far more unethical than the action being charged.


    Some will say measurements make their case open and shut. But there are too many examples of how measurements fall well short of telling the whole story. There are tube amps with 3% - 5% distortion that sound better to many than amps with far better measurements. Are those products a scam? Vinyl doesn’t measure nearly as well as digital and yet many strongly prefer its sound. Should fans of vinyl be told that turntable, tonearm and cartridge makers are scamming them as well?


    For some of my audio choices, some would say I’m deluding myself. Let’s say I am. If I’m happy with my delusion, why should the nay-sayers care? It’s an audio hobby. Why can’t I enjoy my system and post about my experiences, allowing others to judge? The nay-sayers might say “That’s fine, we’re just posting to protect others from being taken in.”


    Fair enough. But these are not always cases of “I have one opinion and you have another”. Many of the arguments are too heated, personal and frequently repeated to only be about audio.


    I believe these debates are about religion and before you conclude that I’ve lost my mind, consider the following:


    Many claim they have experienced God or have witnessed miracles with little or no evidence. The debates concerning those claims are often very intense and personal. Challenges commonly include: Where’s your evidence? Where’s your data? Only because you want to believe do you believe.

     

    Sound familiar?


    This is why I believe the challengers care so much. Allowing audiophiles to post their subjective conclusions without proof brings them one step closer to accepting those who relate their religious experiences without proof. For them, science is god and a subjective conclusion upends their god and belief system. They fight hard so that doesn’t happen.


    This is audio folks. Whether I think I hear something or not isn’t that important. If my audio assessment matters that much to you, I’m guessing you’re anti-religion and/or anti-God. That’s fine. But that explains why something as innocuous as describing the sound of someone’s ethernet cable could elicit such strong and often highly inappropriate comments.


    I’m old enough to remember this hobby when people would meet at audio stores to just listen and schmooze. We’ve lost too much of that sense of camaraderie. We may differ on what we like, but we all care about how we experience music.


    Whether I’m right or wrong about any of the above, would it hurt to return to the times when people’s disagreements about audio were friendly? Can we stop assailing the reputations of the people who rely on this industry to care for their families and employees? Can we respect the opinions of those who differ with us by not trying to shut them down with ridicule?


    It’s not about “religion”. It’s just about audio.

     

    - Joel Alperson




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    4 minutes ago, mansr said:

    What is the minimum price that counts?


    who said anything about price?

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    6 minutes ago, mansr said:

    Well, what criteria decide what counts? Percentage silver in cables? Number of "quantum" in names of components? What?


    ‘As I said: owning any audio system. Show me what you got. Very eager to learn, and share experiences. That’s what this hobby is all about, right?

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    5 minutes ago, thyname said:


    ‘As I said: owning any audio system. Show me what you got. Very eager to learn, and share experiences. That’s what this hobby is all about, right?

     

    I would describe my system this way:

     

     

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    1 minute ago, crenca said:

     

    I would describe the my system this way:

     

     


    ‘I thought so. You proved my point. 
     

    Are you and The Troll the same person? I thought I was replying to them

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    40 minutes ago, thyname said:


    ‘Only to those I mentioned. Not to all objectivists. My post was especially targeted to those who don’t even own an audio system, or don’t even listen to music.

     

     

    The above is what you said, not the revisionist post later.

     

    I would like to know if there is such a person on here.  Or Not.

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    1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

     

     

    The above is what you said, not the revisionist post later.

     

    I would like to know if there is such a person on here.  Or Not.


    As I said: owning any audio system. Show me what you got. Very eager to learn, and share experiences. That’s what this hobby is all about, right?

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    30 minutes ago, thyname said:


    ‘As I said: owning any audio system. Show me what you got. Very eager to learn, and share experiences. That’s what this hobby is all about, right?


    See my thread new workstation sound.

     

    PS be careful of your response.

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    Just now, crenca said:

     

    I was jesting with you.  If your sincerely interested:

     

    I am currently an all HP guy, though in my office I do have KEF Q350's powered by a Parasound amp that I tell my wife are "computer speakers", but the room nodes of my office make them too gimped for any critical listening.

     

    My main HP system currently (changes as I buy and sell) is iFi IDAC2/Airist R2R/Schiit Gungnir MB "A2 {second revision}" >>> Schiit Saga >>> Schiit Jot/Eddie Current BW2 >>> ZMF Eikon/ZMF Verite/Focal Clear/Focal Elegia/Hifiman XX (these suck)/Sennheiser HD650

     

    All fed by Roon (mostly), sometimes HQPlayer and/or JRiver with various VST DSP plugins.  For magic pixie dust on my PC source, I stick with just Lasso and various solutions from Synergistic Research...


    Thanks for sharing. Now we are talking. I used to be big on Headphones. Not anymore. From your current gear you have, I used to own the Airist headphones amp and ZMF Eikon. Lots of other HP stuff I used to own, including Senn HD800, Focal Utopia, Headamp GS-X MK2, Holo Spring KTE, Schiit Mjolnir, and more. Big Roon fan, and lifetime sub on year three. For what’s worth I am a fan of R2R DAC technology too. Nothing scientific, purely subjective, the type of sound I like.
     

    My kids grew up, so I am back into speakers. Does not mean I will never go back into HP. Cheers!

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    7 minutes ago, thyname said:


    Thanks for sharing. Now we are talking. I used to be big on Headphones. Not anymore. From your current gear you have, I used to own the Airist headphones amp and ZMF Eikon. Lots of other HP stuff I used to own, including Senn HD800, Focal Utopia, Headamp GS-X MK2, Holo Spring KTE, Schiit Mjolnir, and more. Big Roon fan, and lifetime sub on year three. For what’s worth I am a fan of R2R DAC technology too. Nothing scientific, purely subjective, the type of sound I like.
     

    My kids grew up, so I am back into speakers. Does not mean I will never go back into HP. Cheers!

     

    Yep, I want to own the Utopia, but the delta between it and the Clear is not enough to justify the price, though street prices this year fell quite a bit so...

     

    As much as I like the Eikon's tonality/timbre, the speed/detail is lacking, but the Verite (Closed in my case) brings Focal speed/detail to that warm ZMF house sound, which itself is polarizing.  With kids, I am chasing the closed back dragon.  "Face tweeters" like the HD800 bother me, though I get why folks who mostly listen to classical are drawn to this sound.  

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    1 minute ago, crenca said:

     

    Yep, I want to own the Utopia, but the delta between it and the Clear is not enough to justify the price, though street prices this year fell quite a bit so...

     

    As much as I like the Eikon's tonality/timbre, the speed/detail is lacking, but the Verite (Closed in my case) brings Focal speed/detail to that warm ZMF house sound, which itself is polarizing.  With kids, I am chasing the closed back dragon.  "Face tweeters" like the HD800 bother me, though I get why folks who mostly listen to classical are drawn to this sound.  


    ‘My HD800 were SDR modified (superDupont Resonator). They were my go-to headphones until I got Utopia. Street price on Utopia is way lower than MSRP. I remember I paid something like $2,500 or $2,600 all in a few years ago, brand new.

     

    A local guy I know is friendly with Zach at ZMF, so I was familiar with his cans. Good stuff for sure 

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    1 minute ago, tmtomh said:

     

    I'm sorry, but that's never, ever going to happen here. 

     

    The reason is that the entire point of objectivism is that individual experience owning and listening to gear is not, by itself, a reliable measure or indicator of anything except, well, that individual's experience. Experience is valuable and essential, but it is limited when it comes to communicating sonic characteristics and performance facts that are likely to be repeatable by others.

     

    As for limiting posts about measurements to gear that the individual has measured themselves, that is equally nonsensical in the context of what objectivism is about: repeatability of measurement is what makes measurement meaningful. Who does the measurement is irrelevant - and by definition one's own measurements are not more important or valid than anyone else's. Since not everyone has the time, money, and expertise necessary to own and properly operate good-quality testing equipment, we necessarily rely on those who do own and know how to operate that equipment to supply the testing data.

     

    In sum, what your comment here does is say that objectivist commentary is fine with you - as long as it's limited in such a way as to turn it into subjectivist commentary. There's nothing open-minded about that. So if that's your position, then I would suggest you kindly take a seat in this discussion.


    I am so sorry, but your reply to me does not make sense.

     

    Are you stating that current owners of a piece of equipment don’t need to share their experience with what they own simply because their experience with said gear may not be repeatable by others?

     

    Further, are you saying the only opinion that counts is that of His Majesty, “who do own and know how to operate that equipment to supply the testing data”?

     

    With outmost respects, this is by far the most ridiculous statement I have ever read. Utterly nonsense 

     

     

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    40 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

    At this point is it fair to say that the original article failed to bring about a change in behavior?  Haven’t we seem enough evidence that suggests these individuals feel their behavior is justified?  I’m not trying to stir up the dust with these questions as I think we’ve done enough talking about the problem.  I’m just thinking it be time to shift the discussion to possible solutions. 
     

    The ideal solution would have been for certain individuals to agree to moderate their own behavior. But as they are either unwilling or unable to do this, might there be a solution that doesn’t have to burden others with the task of moderation?  Or do we do nothing and just allow things to continue as is?

     

    I have several friends who could make wonderful contributions here that would help us all better enjoy listening to the music we love, but they either avoid posting here or do it sparingly because they have the exact same complaints that were raised in the article.  As such I hope we can find an agreeable solution.

     

    I agree that "certain individuals should moderate their own behavior."  For example, if someone disagrees with some claim about cables, you should pay attention and not Rage On like a snowflake in Hades.

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    2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    I think you may have misunderstood what @tmtomh’s point was. Hopefully he can follow up. 


    ‘I surely hope you are right, although I doubt it. What is your understanding of what he said? 

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    2 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

    Owners of a piece of equipment don't need to share their experiences - but they certainly can do so


    Then what would be the point in discussing with other people in a hobby forum like this? This is definitely not a need, like nutrition, or thirst. It’s a hobby. We are here to discuss with each other about the hobby. This is not a life or death situation.

     

    5 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

    Rather, I am saying that it does not make sense to claim - as you did - that people should only post comments here about measurements if they made those measurements themselves.


    ‘You really took my measurement comment in the most serious context. All I was saying is that the opinion of an objectivist, or of anyone for that matter, is totally acceptable by me if that person has actual personal experience with something. Not simply because he read some measurements that His Majesty posted in the Internets. Does it make sense? Or are you really implying that if someone who has those special instruments, and measures this stuff, is the absolute authority in all audio, and 100% of the population should buy what he determined to have the most superior measurements?

     

    11 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

    as for the fact that you find my prior post ridiculous, if I were you I wouldn't be so sure that's a commentary on the content of my post.


    ‘Sorry, I don’t get it. My comprehension skills are lacking with this one

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