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  • joelha
    joelha

    Guest Editorial: Why did audio stop being about audio?

    How many forum threads on this site (and others) devolve into heated exchanges about whether people actually hear what they say they hear? Without “proof”, listeners are often mocked, insulted and their experiences discredited.


    Challenges range from assuming the listener has been influenced by expectation bias (I believe it will sound good, so it does sound good) to faulting his unwillingness to rely on measurements or blind testing.


    What bothers me most is reputations are attacked so casually. Everyone from Chris Connaker (one of the most decent people I’ve known in the industry) to reviewers and manufacturers are accused of lying, cheating and taking bribes. People, whom I suspect in most cases haven’t even heard the product they’re attacking, will smear the reputations of others they probably don’t know. Those who are attacked rely on their reputations to earn a living. That’s to say nothing of the personal attacks on the listeners themselves. And the attackers attack anonymously. Unless the case is black and white i.e. I sent you money and you never shipped my product or there are repeated, unresolved product defects, trying to ruin a person’s name is evil. Nothing will undo a person’s life faster and more effectively than giving him a bad reputation. And doing it anonymously and without hard evidence is cowardly and arrogant. In such cases, it’s highly likely the charge is far more unethical than the action being charged.


    Some will say measurements make their case open and shut. But there are too many examples of how measurements fall well short of telling the whole story. There are tube amps with 3% - 5% distortion that sound better to many than amps with far better measurements. Are those products a scam? Vinyl doesn’t measure nearly as well as digital and yet many strongly prefer its sound. Should fans of vinyl be told that turntable, tonearm and cartridge makers are scamming them as well?


    For some of my audio choices, some would say I’m deluding myself. Let’s say I am. If I’m happy with my delusion, why should the nay-sayers care? It’s an audio hobby. Why can’t I enjoy my system and post about my experiences, allowing others to judge? The nay-sayers might say “That’s fine, we’re just posting to protect others from being taken in.”


    Fair enough. But these are not always cases of “I have one opinion and you have another”. Many of the arguments are too heated, personal and frequently repeated to only be about audio.


    I believe these debates are about religion and before you conclude that I’ve lost my mind, consider the following:


    Many claim they have experienced God or have witnessed miracles with little or no evidence. The debates concerning those claims are often very intense and personal. Challenges commonly include: Where’s your evidence? Where’s your data? Only because you want to believe do you believe.

     

    Sound familiar?


    This is why I believe the challengers care so much. Allowing audiophiles to post their subjective conclusions without proof brings them one step closer to accepting those who relate their religious experiences without proof. For them, science is god and a subjective conclusion upends their god and belief system. They fight hard so that doesn’t happen.


    This is audio folks. Whether I think I hear something or not isn’t that important. If my audio assessment matters that much to you, I’m guessing you’re anti-religion and/or anti-God. That’s fine. But that explains why something as innocuous as describing the sound of someone’s ethernet cable could elicit such strong and often highly inappropriate comments.


    I’m old enough to remember this hobby when people would meet at audio stores to just listen and schmooze. We’ve lost too much of that sense of camaraderie. We may differ on what we like, but we all care about how we experience music.


    Whether I’m right or wrong about any of the above, would it hurt to return to the times when people’s disagreements about audio were friendly? Can we stop assailing the reputations of the people who rely on this industry to care for their families and employees? Can we respect the opinions of those who differ with us by not trying to shut them down with ridicule?


    It’s not about “religion”. It’s just about audio.

     

    - Joel Alperson




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    1 hour ago, wgscott said:

    @The Computer Audiophile

     

    Any chance we might be able to have a guest editorial from the opposite point of view?

     

    Absolutely 100%. 

     

     

     

    29 minutes ago, crenca said:

     

    What Big Crazy?  Nothing to see here, move along move along...

     

    You know Chris, I halfway expect you to soon start arguing that the labels are good corporate citizens, well run, and have the best interests of the artists and consumers at heart...

    How convenient. I ask for objective data and you shoot the messenger. What's next, pour water on the guy who pulled the fire alarm?

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    1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    What's next, pour water on the guy who pulled the fire alarm?

     

    Already did that to @kennyb123just above 😉  The cold water of the reality of audiophilia... 😂 

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    1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    Seriously, if you dislike it here so much, dislike 99% of the people here, dislike the hobby many people love, then it's time to move on. 

     

     

    What are you even talking about - is not part of your and the OP's complaint that objectivist revel in, even make a "religion" out of disagreeing with subjectivists?  

     

    Here is another cliche of the subjective/objective divide in the background of this conversation:

     

    Subjectivist get along and "like" their fellow audiophiles, where as objectivists are grumpy misanthropes who just can't get along...

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    Great article! And, great conversations!!  

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    7 minutes ago, crenca said:

     

     

    What are you even talking about - is not part of your and the OP's complaint that objectivist revel in, even make a "religion" out of disagreeing with subjectivists?  

     

    Here is another cliche of the subjective/objective divide in the background of this conversation:

     

    Subjectivist get along and "like" their fellow audiophiles, where as objectivists are grumpy misanthropes who just can't get along...

    If you're here just for the sport of arguing or making this the front line in your war on HiFi, it's time to move on. If you're here to increase your enjoyment of HiFi and music listening, then please stay, but start to act like this is why you're here. 

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    7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

    If you're here just for the sport of arguing or making this the front line in your war on HiFi, it's time to move on. If you're here to increase your enjoyment of HiFi and music listening, then please stay, but start to act like this is why you're here

     

    I'm not a good actor and so help me out here:

     

    Since for the OP and yourself "HiFi" is the subjectivist understanding of it, what would an objectivist-playing-the-subjectivist look like to you?  Or are you saying that I should undergo a religious (of the audio kind) conversion, one from objectivism to subjectivism?  I and every other objectivist have to know, because if such an ultimatum is issued we have to know how we are going to be graded and judged.  It's an honest question, since I enjoy being an audio objectivist, and don't have the slightest clue as how to enjoy being an audio subjectivist.

     

    Seriously, it just this sort of absurdity the divide leads to if either side demands capitulation and conversion from the other....wait, is that not exactly what the OP and yourself are saying is bad!

     

    @wgscottis right to call for an editorial from another perspective...I would enjoy that 😉

     

    p.s. I have been sporting the new ZMV Verite Closed for about a week now.  If you want I can do a (quite subjective) write up as I have been enjoying them very much! 

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    4 hours ago, firedog said:

    The corrective force quote was ARQ, not me.

     

    We don't need a corrective force.

     

    We need this:

     

     

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    32 minutes ago, crenca said:

    Seriously, it just this sort of absurdity the divide leads to if either side demands capitulation and conversion from the other....wait, is that not exactly what the OP and yourself are saying is bad!

    You've created the absurdity in your head. I never said anything like it.

     

    If capitulation means being civil and treating people well, then capitulate.

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    4 hours ago, crenca said:

    ...There are "objectivist" sites and there are "subjectivist" sites that shelter their respective constituencies from the uncomfortable audio divide...

     

    Exactly. I can only speak for myself. I read posts here as I like to read all sides of a topic.

     

    As you say if one wants to be sheltered from the other side they can join objectivists only or subjectivists only sites.

     

    P.S. No one is on my ignore list, I really do like to read all sides.

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    2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

     

    I think the added value you are searching for is called "physics"

     

    Just an aside: I just love physics evangelism, don't you? 

     

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    2 hours ago, thyname said:

    I have no issue with the "objectivists" posting about audio, as long as it is based on their own, actual experience, of owning and using (or measuring) the gear under review.

     

     

    Does this only apply to  "objectivists" as you define it - or to everyone???

     

    I am thinking of one non-objective individual in particular, who frequently disrupts threads with his angry posts, yet never comments on his own actual experience of the gear under discussion.  He also has a hearing loss.

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    @wgscott, how is the link with these threads, started by @joelha, on the same topic, are off topic?

     

    2 hours ago, christopher3393 said:

     

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    8 hours ago, crenca said:

    You could seek out a mono-culture hobby - one that does not have uncomfortable disagreements and thus evangelism? Anyone know of such a hobby?

    Whittling?

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    1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

     

     

    Does this only apply to  "objectivists" as you define it - or to everyone???

     

    I am thinking of one non-objective individual in particular, who frequently disrupts threads with his angry posts, yet never comments on his own actual experience of the gear under discussion.  He also has a hearing loss.


    ‘Only to those I mentioned. Not to all objectivists. My post was especially targeted to those who don’t even own an audio system, or don’t even listen to music.

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    2+2 always = 4. I don’t believe people must get out the paper and pencil in order to talk about it with others. Just my thoughts on this one. 
     

    I wish some of the objectivists talked more about their listening experiences but everyone has their specialty and I’m reluctantly OK with it. 
     

     

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    Just now, Ralf11 said:

    who here doesn’t even own an audio system, or doesn’t even listen to music ???


    ‘You will be surprised. And Alexa speakers or your car stereo does not count

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    5 minutes ago, thyname said:

    ‘You will be surprised. And Alexa speakers or your car stereo does not count

    What is the minimum price that counts?

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