Tuttle et al v Audiophile Music Direct

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

On geography and world view, Steinberg's famous "View from 9th Avenue" 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

40 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

This is the environment of the American consumer.

This is the environment of the American consumer. 
 

[The Computer Audiophile]

After seeing so many releases tout use of the/a “master tape” over the years, I assumed they were all in decent shape. I thought the tape deterioration talk was overblown. 

[Iving]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

After seeing so many releases tout use of the/a “master tape” over the years, I assumed they were all in decent shape. I thought the tape deterioration talk was overblown. 

 

https://www.richardhess.com/tape/history/HESS_Tape_Degradation_ARSC_Journal_39-2.pdf

 

 

 

[Rt66indierock]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

Last night on one of the multiple channels that exclusively show old movies as programming, Grand Hotel was featured, released in 1932. This is the environment of the American consumer.

 

I worked closely with the IT department of a major business segment of my employer, a Fortune 10 company, for 24 years, and remained blissfully unaware of tape backup horror stories.

 

And you watched a movie you can buy at Walmart from a digital copy. Think you could ever watch it in a theater?

 

Jud and Chris, I think your sample size is too small. 36 years of public accounting tells me a different story and my focus is tax not consulting and IT. I began my career with an assignment at a helicopter manufacturer. Started by famous reclose and sold off. Those tapes were an adventure is all I can say.

[Jud]

50 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

And you watched a movie you can buy at Walmart from a digital copy. Think you could ever watch it in a theater?

 

Of course. Most theaters have converted to digital. (Had a friend who managed a theater, and I remember the huge platters that were used back then.)

[PYP]

1 hour ago, Iving said:

 

https://www.richardhess.com/tape/history/HESS_Tape_Degradation_ARSC_Journal_39-2.pdf

 

 

 

Perhaps we will soon see a new headline which explains that Tuttle et al have apologized to MoFi since they now understand the public service that preserved the music they love.   

 

Why doesn't MoFi issue a refund to all purchasers as a way to try to rectify some of the damage?   What say you esquires?  

[Account Closed]

Only in theoretical quantum physics is information never lost. In the real world all data storage systems whether digital or analog are subject to decay and corruption and the data eventually is no longer able to be recovered. This is a fact and the only hope is to continue to move the data to a newer storage medium ( the intermediate digital transfer) and do it with a minimum of copy error.

 

There will likely never be a truly permanent storage and retrieval system. Stone erodes, papyrus crumbles, metal corrodes and so on and on.

 

If anyone ever creates a truly eternal data storage and retrieval system, he or she would quickly become wealthy beyond comprehension. 

 

 

[Iving]

5 minutes ago, PYP said:

Perhaps we will soon see a new headline which explains that Tuttle et al have apologized to MoFi since they now understand the public service that preserved the music they love.   

 

Why doesn't MoFi issue a refund to all purchasers as a way to try to rectify some of the damage?   What say you esquires?  

 

Maybe this is a great time to flat-DSD analogue masters - and we music lovers can be grateful that this has happened.

 

Those who have performed this valuable service could try to recoup their costs by selling digital products n steps away from that flat-DSD, advertising their products according to the principles which justify their engineering decisions. People will know what they are buying. Might even be a customer myself.

 

If they think's there's enough demand they could also sell DSD vinyl - advertising it as exactly that. I wouldn't buy it but so what. Many others might like to scrape a needle across digits stamped onto plastic.

 

The last thing that should happen is that DSD vinyl should be sold by stealth - to unsuspecting buyers - whether you think they are foolish or otherwise for not suspecting tape deterioration so advanced that "Original Master Recordings" are not possible - Figure 1 doesn't support a broad folly argument.

 

So there are no grounds for apologies from plaintiffs - no.

 

Is a refund an adequate response the correct way around?

 

I think the net outcome of this will be that MoFi will lose a lawsuit.

 

Their reputation will be broken and their best engineers will migrate elsewhere.

 

There will be scepticism in the industry until someone makes an honest job of preserving analogue masters in digital format(s).

 

A good thing waiting to happen ...

[Jud]

14 minutes ago, PYP said:

Why doesn't MoFi issue a refund to all purchasers as a way to try to rectify some of the damage?   What say you esquires?

 

They've already offered, if I understand correctly. But it also depends on whether all the purchasers can be found and asked if they want refunds. If not, class certification might be granted. (Class actions are done where it is impossible, impractical, or unduly expensive to provide individual notification to all who may be affected.) So whether a class is certified is going to depend on how many people bought these LPs, and how easy it will be to track down current contact information for them.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

After seeing so many releases tout use of the/a “master tape” over the years, I assumed they were all in decent shape. I thought the tape deterioration talk was overblown. 

 

To put things in perspective...

 

There's tape deterioration, there's a lot of music for which master tapes have simply been lost or destroyed, and finally those who own tapes are not always willing to ship them out to the record producers. 

 

The older the music, the less chance there is of finding good quality tapes. Fortunately you can also find very good condition 78s or LPs from which digital copies can be made. For this older music, the quality of the restauration work/mastering is critical. Most of the labels reissuing this music are working with digital. I assume it simply provides much more control. The results can be excellent. 

 

Here's a recent example with Mosaic's box set of the Black & White label, where they describe the challenges of sourcing the material. 

 

https://www.mosaicrecords.com/product/classic-black-white-sessions/

 

If the master tapes are missing, and you are only left with poor quality CD versions, then there is little that can be done. So paradoxically, you can often get better quality audio from older music than from the CD era. 

[Iving]

5 minutes ago, hopkins said:

Fortunately you can also find very good condition 78s or LPs from which digital copies can be made.

 

True

 

These may be the best instances that exist of some recordings. Even, arguably, LZs I and II.

[The Computer Audiophile]

48 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

Maybe this is a great time to flat-DSD analogue masters - and we music lovers can be grateful that this has happened.

 

Those who have performed this valuable service could try to recoup their costs by selling digital products n steps away from that flat-DSD, advertising their products according to the principles which justify their engineering decisions. People will know what they are buying. Might even be a customer myself.

 

If they think's there's enough demand they could also sell DSD vinyl - advertising it as exactly that. I wouldn't buy it but so what. Many others might like to scrape a needle across digits stamped onto plastic.

 

The last thing that should happen is that DSD vinyl should be sold by stealth - to unsuspecting buyers - whether you think they are foolish or otherwise for not suspecting tape deterioration so advanced that "Original Master Recordings" are not possible - Figure 1 doesn't support a broad folly argument.

 

So there are no grounds for apologies from plaintiffs - no.

 

Is a refund an adequate response the correct way around?

 

I think the net outcome of this will be that MoFi will lose a lawsuit.

 

Their reputation will be broken and their best engineers will migrate elsewhere.

 

There will be scepticism in the industry until someone makes an honest job of preserving analogue masters in digital format(s).

 

A good thing waiting to happen ...

Why DSD flat transfers? Are you using the logic that less is more, rather than going by what nearly all professionals say about flat transfers?

[fas42]

8 hours ago, PeterG said:

 

Sonics wise, Ella At The Hollywood Bowl sounds very good all things considered — it is after all a 60-plus year old analog tape captured from the soundboard, recorded live without a net. I enjoyed listening to it on vinyl a bit more than I did the high resolution 96 kHz, 24-bit stream on Qobuz (click here) which sounded a bit bright. So the vinyl presentation helps to warm things up — a little bit. Curiously, the album was not completely available yet on Tidal but the couple of songs that are there (click here) sounded a bit less bright (if you will), streaming at 48 kHz, 24-bit resolution.  It is also streaming on Apple Music (click here for Hi Res Lossless).

I do suspect this original tape source was digitally remastered for this release. In the album liner notes, a company called Izotope — which manufactures digital audio workstation type software — is credited. I don’t view this as necessarily bad but the result is a more modern sounding release than one might expect from a 1958 live concert captured on analog reel-to-reel tape. This production style is probably a 21st century necessity if this recording was to have any chance at a life on the Internet as well as modern day radio and TV applications. So, analog purists do set your expectations accordingly.

In the world of Grateful Dead tape traders, this is what people used to call “a crisp soundboard.” 

 

This is an excellent example of why it's important to extract maximum accuracy from a playback chain - I have plenty of recordings that fall in this category; that is, if the setup integrity is only, say, 98% as good as it needs to be then the listening can be a torture session, that last 2% are absolutely vital to get right and if in place then everything turns around: the listening is thrilling, and this becomes a favourite album.

 

I would use this recording as a demonstration of what's possible, with a well sorted playback chain ...

[fas42]

4 hours ago, hopkins said:

On geography and world view, Steinberg's famous "View from 9th Avenue" 

 

 

First and only time in America was a very short stopover in New York ... I felt I was partaking in an episode of The Twilight Zone ...

[fas42]

As regards archiving, I have zero fears about this ... so long as a few CDs survive, are around, even if done right at the beginning of the digital era, and are hopelessly scratched and mangled, then the music "has been saved". I have done many recovery 'operations' on some messes; and with enough patience and TLC the music emerges full and rich, ready to last as many centuries as you want ...

[kumakuma]

9 minutes ago, fas42 said:

As regards archiving, I have zero fears about this ... so long as a few CDs survive, are around, even if done right at the beginning of the digital era, and are hopelessly scratched and mangled, then the music "has been saved". I have done many recovery 'operations' on some messes; and with enough patience and TLC the music emerges full and rich, ready to last as many centuries as you want ...

 

Some art restoration experts started their projects with the same confidence...

 

[DuckToller]

4 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Some art restoration experts started their projects with the same confidence...

 

Just 2%, man!

[fas42]

11 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Some art restoration experts started their projects with the same confidence...

 

 

There's a difference between restoration, and recovery. First step, get as close as you possibly can to the data as it existed at the time of the creation of the version - in the case of a digital capture of some musical event there are all sorts of techniques that can ensure an extremely close replication of what has gone missing from loss of many bits ... that's the recovery. Restoration is then an interpretation of the completed recovery; and can always be redone to suit the differing tastes of interested parties.

[Rt66indierock]

36 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

First and only time in America was a very short stopover in New York ... I felt I was partaking in an episode of The Twilight Zone ...

 

American’s feel the same way, except for those that liken it to visiting a zoo.  

[PYP]

4 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

American’s feel the same way, except for those that liken it to visiting a zoo.  

To be fair, a zoo with some great music venues, museums, great food and theatre.    Of course, it is crazy expensive to live there and the density and pace isn't for everyone.  

[Rt66indierock]

5 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

This is the environment of the American consumer. 
 

 

The Tuttle and Stiles cases are going be decided by Captain Crunch’s Crunch Berries and Fruit Loops cases. Audiophiles ruled Fruit Loops. That will go mainstream.

[MarkusBarkus]

53 minutes ago, fas42 said:

First and only time in America was a very short stopover in New York

...we flagged your passport and hid all the good stuff. But come back any time...it gets more interesting every four years.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

First and only time in America was a very short stopover in New York ... I felt I was partaking in an episode of The Twilight Zone ...

We felt the same way when you walked off the plane. 
 

 

Only kidding Frank :~)

[botrytis]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

We felt the same way when you walked off the plane. 
 

 

Only kidding Frank :~)

 

You were? 🤣