Is there any sonic advantage to leaving stereo gear turned on at all times?

[StephenJK]

Recent discussions on this topic resulted in a number of responses that can be summarized as "because the manufacturer says so", and yeah, I get that.  

 

My question is - how can there possibly be any sonic benefit from leaving your stereo turned on at all times?  And, I should add, for those who would reply "Why not?" I can only think of living in the forest in Northern Ontario and the gear that's been spiked from power bumps, lightning strikes and brownouts.  Not my stereo gear, I always had some type of surge protector, but if a big storm was on the way I would err on the side of caution and just shut the whole thing down.  

 

I do understand that any power component or tube gear needs to warm up - but that's something that I believe can happen in a few minutes.  With solid state gear it really shouldn't be a big deal.  I ran with Audio Research tube gear for many years, and, I think at the end with an LS-27, PH-5 and a VS-110 had a good understanding of that.  But, when I wasn't using it, I turned it all off. 

 

This is the stereo I have now, not that it matters other than for purposes of discussion.  The Transparent Audio Power Isolator on the very bottom of the rack didn't come with a power switch.  I took it apart, machined a rectangular slot on the left side and installed a load rated power switch.  Now, when I want to shut it down, that does it.  I don't care that the Devialet monoblocks have a programmable sleep mode, I don't want anything left turned on when it isn't being used.  

 

Is there is any scientific evidence or proof of why we should leave our gear on at all times?  I haven't been able to find anything.  If there is any proof I would be pleased to hear it.  But please, don't post up copies of text from manuals that say you should do just that.  

 

If I was a card-carrying Green Party member, I would have added something about power vampires and think of the children, but I'm not, and so I won't.  :)

 

Your thoughts are welcome.  

 

 

[robocop]

Turn it on turn it off. The main reason to keep it on is to hear a consistent sound if you listen everyday which I do. Some components seem to need 2 to 3 days to get back to a happy listening place. This is clearly audible.

If you are an inconsistent listener don't worry about it. I do turn my DAC and computer of from time to time and this also helps maintain a happy sound. 

 

One technical reason for leaving ones equipment on is a lot of component failures can happen at cold turn on, which I have experienced. One of my JL Audio subs died at cold turn on caused by an input capacitor expiring. Radio stations leave equipment turned on when they go off air and recording studios.

 

Certainly turn it off and disconnect mains supply plugs in the face of any storms. Sleep mode is not desirable for the best listening although everything warms up after about 20 minutes in my system.

As far as I know there isn't a technical study to verify this but thousands of listeners have heard it.

 

Its really down to how fussy you are with always hearing the best sound when you sit down. I do and I'm happy to pay the power bill which I guess is about $20US a month in a country with lots of power generated by river dams.

 

At the end of the day its optional and certainly best practise if you want the best sound. 

 

Robert

 

[One and a half]

For DACs and external clocks where the clock needs thermal stability to occur for several hours, 24/7 operation is recommended, and these devices do not consume gobs of power. As a favour to my cat, a DAC is always on in the office, the warmth is just enough for her to be happy to stay there for hours.

 

The EtherRegen needs 24/7 operation, for similar reasons, and power cycling has drama now and again with lost connections. It's a network switch as well, and devices like that are meant to be on 24/7.

 

For the rest of audio components, switch them off and on when needed, power amps have inrush current limiters, saving transformers and caps from pain.

 

Music Servers, hmm. depends on the software and any custom power supplies or clocks. For example Roon takes quite a while to boot and be available, whereas MinimServer takes less than 30s from a  cold boot. Control or player software can be switched on demand.  

 

Now this recommendation is for existing burned in equipment. 

[fas42]

There won't be "scientific evidence" available, because it depends on the equipment. My original good system needed at least  2 days of on time before it began 'to sing', and if I switched it off for some extended time, the same 2 day ritual was required. Yes, it worked from turn on; but the SQ at start up was pleasant, rather than special - the latter was what I was interested in, so I left stuff on 24/7. OTOH, current rig, being a completely modern design, delivers SQ worth listening to from the moment the music starts; if anything, it starts to lose some qualities over the course of a day, because certain areas are not yet optimised as well as they could be.

 

The why is because the materials used for the parts in an audio system do not have a set of properties which remain invariant no matter what is happening around them. The behaviours so beloved in textbooks are only an approximation, and unfortunately the varying characteristics are often on the edge of being enough to be audible; if you're a person sensitive to that, you'll find a compromise you can live with; if you can't hear the differences, then you are fortunate , and you might as well treat the rig like a TV ...

[StephenJK]

2 hours ago, robocop said:

Turn it on turn it off. The main reason to keep it on is to hear a consistent sound if you listen everyday which I do. Some components seem to need 2 to 3 days to get back to a happy listening place. This is clearly audible.

If you are an inconsistent listener don't worry about it. I do turn my DAC and computer of from time to time and this also helps maintain a happy sound. 

 

One technical reason for leaving ones equipment on is a lot of component failures can happen at cold turn on, which I have experienced. One of my JL Audio subs died at cold turn on caused by an input capacitor expiring. Radio stations leave equipment turned on when they go off air and recording studios.

 

Certainly turn it off and disconnect mains supply plugs in the face of any storms. Sleep mode is not desirable for the best listening although everything warms up after about 20 minutes in my system.

As far as I know there isn't a technical study to verify this but thousands of listeners have heard it.

 

Its really down to how fussy you are with always hearing the best sound when you sit down. I do and I'm happy to pay the power bill which I guess is about $20US a month in a country with lots of power generated by river dams.

 

At the end of the day its optional and certainly best practise if you want the best sound. 

 

Robert

 

I listen to music all day, every day.  Can you explain what you mean by "This is clearly audible."  Have you tried turning your system off, and then not doing that, and then heard a difference some days later?  Doesn't that go against that whole objective/subjective AB argument about how our memory for sound works?

[StephenJK]

20 minutes ago, fas42 said:

There won't be "scientific evidence" available, because it depends on the equipment. My original good system needed at least  2 days of on time before it began 'to sing', and if I switched it off for some extended time, the same 2 day ritual was required. Yes, it worked from turn on; but the SQ at start up was pleasant, rather than special - the latter was what I was interested in, so I left stuff on 24/7. OTOH, current rig, being a completely modern design, delivers SQ worth listening to from the moment the music starts; if anything, it starts to lose some qualities over the course of a day, because certain areas are not yet optimised as well as they could be.

 

The why is because the materials used for the parts in an audio system do not have a set of properties which remain invariant no matter what is happening around them. The behaviours so beloved in textbooks are only an approximation, and unfortunately the varying characteristics are often on the edge of being enough to be audible; if you're a person sensitive to that, you'll find a compromise you can live with; if you can't hear the differences, then you are fortunate , and you might as well treat the rig like a TV ...

I admire you offering a theory as to how or why there could be a difference, but I'm sure you would agree that is just a theory you are proposing, not verifiable fact or anything accepted by others.  Could you explain the difference you hear in your system 2 days later when it begins "to sing"?  What is that difference, and can you actually remember what it could be over two days?

[StephenJK]

1 hour ago, One and a half said:

For DACs and external clocks where the clock needs thermal stability to occur for several hours, 24/7 operation is recommended, and these devices do not consume gobs of power. As a favour to my cat, a DAC is always on in the office, the warmth is just enough for her to be happy to stay there for hours.

 

The EtherRegen needs 24/7 operation, for similar reasons, and power cycling has drama now and again with lost connections. It's a network switch as well, and devices like that are meant to be on 24/7.

 

For the rest of audio components, switch them off and on when needed, power amps have inrush current limiters, saving transformers and caps from pain.

 

Music Servers, hmm. depends on the software and any custom power supplies or clocks. For example Roon takes quite a while to boot and be available, whereas MinimServer takes less than 30s from a  cold boot. Control or player software can be switched on demand.  

 

Now this recommendation is for existing burned in equipment. 

Why does a digital circuit need several hours to achieve thermal stability?  This is the whole point of my post.  People make pronouncements they believe to be true, but offer no evidence to support that.  I'm familiar with the EtherRegen, but the issues you're talking about are more related to connectivity, not to the overall sound quality of your system.  

[fas42]

1 hour ago, StephenJK said:

I admire you offering a theory as to how or why there could be a difference, but I'm sure you would agree that is just a theory you are proposing, not verifiable fact or anything accepted by others.  Could you explain the difference you hear in your system 2 days later when it begins "to sing"?  What is that difference, and can you actually remember what it could be over two days?

 

If you do some simulation of how circuits actually work in real life, using a tool like a Spice program, then it becomes easy to see how the behaviour alters ... most such simulation throws in things like "perfect"voltage rails ... ummm, no, that's not how you work out what the real world is like! Replace that 100% fixed voltage with what a real power supply is like, and everything changes!! I once did that with power amplifier design by a respected designer, and the high frequency distortion figures were then worse, by a factor of 100! Now, one key part of old style, linear power supplies is that they rely on electrolytic capacitors to "smooth" the rail - and the very worse behaved type of capacitor is, you guessed it, electrolytic ... if you push some designs a little bit, the internal workings start becoming chaotic; they work well enough to get the right numbers, but I certainly wouldn't consider them examples of, "good engineering".

 

Subjectively, after 2 days, the low level detail was far better defined; a track which was rather boring initially, because the sound of the instruments blended together, started revealing so much more of what individual musicians were doing - it became easy to follow all the lines of the mix, and focus on individual strands of sound elements. Think of the difference when looking at the night sky with a beginner's telescope, versus a highly refined, professional instrument - the stars are the same, you're observing the identical thing, but the optimised device provides so much more meaningful information.

[robocop]

Quote

I listen to music all day, every day.  Can you explain what you mean by "This is clearly audible."  Have you tried turning your system off, and then not doing that, and then heard a difference some days later?

Yes definitely and the longer its off the longer it takes to get back to normal. I agree totally with fas42's description above. I certainly turn mine off particularly with longer breaks than a weekend. When I travel for extended times I must admit I'm so happy to be home it sounds amazing anyway. 

[One and a half]

6 hours ago, StephenJK said:

Why does a digital circuit need several hours to achieve thermal stability?  This is the whole point of my post.  People make pronouncements they believe to be true, but offer no evidence to support that.  I'm familiar with the EtherRegen, but the issues you're talking about are more related to connectivity, not to the overall sound quality of your system.  

Digital circuits depend on power supplies and passive components to work, they cannot exist otherwise. 

 

You do realize that resistors can change resistance with temperature? Compensate for that when designing noise floor calculations on clock circuits and the world will rush to your feet. Analysing digital circuits like gates, FPGA etc. on their own is too abstract and they don't really care if they are on or off, but passive components behave differently.

 

[GregWormald]

Studies on things like this are expensive to run and the difference between a "stabilised" circuit and one that isn't stabilised may be almost impossible to detect with test equipment.

 

Capacitors do "form" while heating up but what differences there are between 20 minutes and 2 days is the real question.

 

If you want to second guess the designer and manufacturer then go ahead—leave on or turn off at your convenience. If you can't hear a difference then the phrase: "A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all.—William James", applies to you.

 

Btw my preamp's standby consumption is 4 watts, my active speakers (800 watts/channel in 3 separate amps/channel) have a standby consumption of less than 1 watt/channel. I doubt that that is a significant input to global warming. Both manufacturers recommend turning off for extended periods or during electrical storms.

[yamamoto2002]

I don't hear any sonic benefit at all from always powered on audio devices.

I switched off the power distributor of my audio equipment when it is not used.

[StephenJK]

10 hours ago, GregWormald said:

Studies on things like this are expensive to run and the difference between a "stabilised" circuit and one that isn't stabilised may be almost impossible to detect with test equipment.

 

Capacitors do "form" while heating up but what differences there are between 20 minutes and 2 days is the real question.

 

If you want to second guess the designer and manufacturer then go ahead—leave on or turn off at your convenience. If you can't hear a difference then the phrase: "A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all.—William James", applies to you.

 

Btw my preamp's standby consumption is 4 watts, my active speakers (800 watts/channel in 3 separate amps/channel) have a standby consumption of less than 1 watt/channel. I doubt that that is a significant input to global warming. Both manufacturers recommend turning off for extended periods or during electrical storms.

I get all that.  It's not that I want to second guess the manufacturer's - I understand warm up times but I do question how or why any solid state gear could take more than 20 to 30 minutes to get up to speed.  I can also understand a manufacturer, knowing that, would simply state you should leave it on all all times so that it will always sound its "best."

 

What I don't get is when people tell me their stereo sounds better (after that initial warmup period) by leaving it on all the time or after 48 hours.  My understanding of digital and analog circuits just doesn't support that belief.  

 

Oh well.  I thought it could be a worthwhile discussion, as this comes up over and over again and I've yet to hear how or why something should sound better if left on at all times - ither than people saying so.  However, I don't have an issue with "we're right and you're wrong" as it wasn't meant to be anything other than a friendly discussion.  

 

Happy Easter.  

[firedog]

There have been studies showing that clocks can take anywhere from a couple of hours to a full day to achieve stablility. So leaving your DAC on might have a benefit. Of course, we don't know for sure that clock stability or lack thereof is actually audible.

[StephenJK]

19 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

If you do some simulation of how circuits actually work in real life, using a tool like a Spice program, then it becomes easy to see how the behaviour alters ... most such simulation throws in things like "perfect"voltage rails ... ummm, no, that's not how you work out what the real world is like! Replace that 100% fixed voltage with what a real power supply is like, and everything changes!! I once did that with power amplifier design by a respected designer, and the high frequency distortion figures were then worse, by a factor of 100! Now, one key part of old style, linear power supplies is that they rely on electrolytic capacitors to "smooth" the rail - and the very worse behaved type of capacitor is, you guessed it, electrolytic ... if you push some designs a little bit, the internal workings start becoming chaotic; they work well enough to get the right numbers, but I certainly wouldn't consider them examples of, "good engineering".

 

Subjectively, after 2 days, the low level detail was far better defined; a track which was rather boring initially, because the sound of the instruments blended together, started revealing so much more of what individual musicians were doing - it became easy to follow all the lines of the mix, and focus on individual strands of sound elements. Think of the difference when looking at the night sky with a beginner's telescope, versus a highly refined, professional instrument - the stars are the same, you're observing the identical thing, but the optimised device provides so much more meaningful information.

Coming from someone who recently reviewed Klipsch speakers by listening to them on YouTube, I'll have to take your comments with a grain of salt.  

[fas42]

Review? Klipsch? ... Hmm, must have been an alternate universe that you were tuning in to ...

[fas42]

4 hours ago, StephenJK said:

I get all that.  It's not that I want to second guess the manufacturer's - I understand warm up times but I do question how or why any solid state gear could take more than 20 to 30 minutes to get up to speed.  I can also understand a manufacturer, knowing that, would simply state you should leave it on all all times so that it will always sound its "best."

 

What I don't get is when people tell me their stereo sounds better (after that initial warmup period) by leaving it on all the time or after 48 hours.  My understanding of digital and analog circuits just doesn't support that belief.  

 

Oh well.  I thought it could be a worthwhile discussion, as this comes up over and over again and I've yet to hear how or why something should sound better if left on at all times - ither than people saying so.  However, I don't have an issue with "we're right and you're wrong" as it wasn't meant to be anything other than a friendly discussion.  

 

Happy Easter.  

 

Answers are pretty simple:

 

The engineering of most audio gear is not good enough, full stop - done well enough to pass simple measuring tests, because you have to get product out the door, to keep the business going.

 

Human hearing is extremely sensitive to anomalies, especially when something creating sound is pretending to be the "real thing". Ask someone who likes acoustic piano how good all the electronic keyboards are at faking such, say ...

 

No-one measures properly what's going on; so everyone is blundering through a fog of misunderstanding about what matters; just insisting that "It shouldn't be so!" ain't gonna change things ...

[botrytis]

Oh, Frank, you don't know good or bad engineering if it bit you on your big toe. If engineering was so bad, we wouldn't have audio equipment last 50 years or more. If it was bad engineering, it would fall apart.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, botrytis said:

Oh, Frank, you don't know good or bad engineering if it bit you on your big toe. If engineering was so bad, we wouldn't have audio equipment last 50 years or more. If it was bad engineering, it would fall apart.

 

Okay, consider these options:

 

A) Equipment which doesn't do the job, properly, but lasts forever - because it's well built, for what it does do

B) Equipment which does the job, but is very fragile - breaks easily

 

You don't get an option C) - which is, obviously, the best of A) and B)

 

Which do you choose?

[GregWormald]

3 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Okay, consider these options:

 

A) Equipment which doesn't do the job, properly, but lasts forever - because it's well built, for what it does do

B) Equipment which does the job, but is very fragile - breaks easily

 

You don't get an option C) - which is, obviously, the best of A) and B)

 

Which do you choose?

Good, but too simple IMO.

This diagram stolen from a motor vehicle article and modified for hi-fi stereo.

Choose a point.

[Mercman]

I recently discovered that my Ayre MX-R Twenty amps benefit sonically from continuous on. In fact, the sound continues to improve over 3 days. A knowledgeable engineer friend suggested that the long warm-up might be related to the fact that the MX-R Twenty does not normally run very hot. 

 

 

 

 

[Archimago]

17 hours ago, fas42 said:

Answers are pretty simple:

 

The (1) engineering of most audio gear is not good enough, full stop - done well enough to pass simple measuring tests, because you have to get product out the door, to keep the business going.

 

Human (2) hearing is extremely sensitive to anomalies, especially when something creating sound is pretending to be the "real thing". Ask someone who likes acoustic piano how good all the electronic keyboards are at faking such, say ...

 

(3) No-one measures properly what's going on; so everyone is blundering through a fog of misunderstanding about what matters; just insisting that "It shouldn't be so!" ain't gonna change things ...

 

(1) and (3) are quite extreme statements which you have not qualified with any detail. Care to explain with examples?

 

(2) is true to an extent but again let's not take it to extremes.

 

Given your extreme statements, it's hard to take this seriously.

 

[Summit]

28 minutes ago, Archimago said:

 

(1) and (3) are quite extreme statements which you have not qualified with any detail. Care to explain with examples?

 

(2) is true to an extent but again let's not take it to extremes.

 

Given your extreme statements, it's hard to take this seriously.

 

No one does.

[botrytis]

11 hours ago, GregWormald said:

Good, but too simple IMO.

This diagram stolen from a motor vehicle article and modified for hi-fi stereo.

Choose a point.

 

Not always true. There are no absolutes in this hobby. I mean, Emotiva amps are inexpensive and bullet proof. 

 

I find it ironic that Frank agrees with you, Mr. Cheap himself.

[Archimago]

2 hours ago, botrytis said:

Not always true. There are no absolutes in this hobby. I mean, Emotiva amps are inexpensive and bullet proof. 

 

I find it ironic that Frank agrees with you, Mr. Cheap himself.

 

I was also thinking about the Technics SL-1200 line of turntables. "Cheap" at least back in the day especially compared to "audiophile" turntable prices these days. The direct drive mechanism is very accurate and quiet. And of course these things take a beating whether it be for DJ uses or at home.

 

I still have my old SL1200 M3D and these days Technics milking it with their latest iterations. ;-)