Is there any sonic advantage to leaving stereo gear turned on at all times?

[fas42]

5 hours ago, Archimago said:

 

(1) and (3) are quite extreme statements which you have not qualified with any detail. Care to explain with examples?

 

(2) is true to an extent but again let's not take it to extremes.

 

Given your extreme statements, it's hard to take this seriously.

 

 

Extreme? If one has experienced audio playback on a regular basis which allows one to engage fully with the recorded event, rather than view it through a piece of dirty glass, the 'signature' of the reproduction chain, then the word "extreme" is what one tends to apply to the attitude of the audio industry, in not evolving their thinking in ways similar to how nearly all other technologies move forward - just consider computing, say.

 

The glass you look through has to be as clear as possible - if the industry was even vaguely in the ballpark, then all higher performing rigs would sound almost identical on a particular recording - it can't be any other way, if they are to have any claim to being, accurate. Yes, it's fun to tart up a recording, to make it sound the way you want - but there needs to be a baseline of, well, accuracy.

 

If human hearing was not as sensitive as it is, then going to an audio show would be an exercise in boredom - all the equipiment would sound so close to each other, and the only point would be picking items with visual bling factors that appealed.

[botrytis]

Owning and knowing is different than going to a show for experience. Those are two different things and the latter gives no experience on ownership.

 

Please stop Frank. Your snake-oil comments do no one any benefit. That is all they are, no basis in science at all.

[fas42]

Okay, a little mental exercise ... find an accomplished acoustic guitar player, and record him with professional equipment, so that he has minimal acoustic space accompanying the playing. Then take that recording to a show, and play on all the setups. But, the big difference now is that you also take that musician with you, and have him stand between the speakers of each rig, and alternately have him play the piece, and have the recording of him put on - what should happen, and what does happen?

[botrytis]

Frank, I wouldn't do that because it is fools errand. I won't spend money on that equipment because that is not what I am interested in.

 

I don't want my system to sound like a live venue. You realize most live venues sound like crap and have horrible acoustics. If you want that, more power to you, but I don't give a rat's ass, sorry to blunt about it.

 

You are welcome to it. Delusions and all.

 

 

[mfsoa]

Very much agree, Bot.

I have never once in my life been to a live, amplified music event and wished my system sounded like that.

 

Why limit ourselves to trying to recreate the live experience when we can do so much better?

[fas42]

1 minute ago, mfsoa said:

Very much agree, Bot.

I have never once in my life been to a live, amplified music event and wished my system sounded like that.

 

Why limit ourselves to trying to recreate the live experience when we can do so much better?

 

Amplified? That's why I specifically said, acoustic guitar - as soon as you throw a PA, any sort of "sound reinforcement" rig into the picture, then it goes straight to the bottom of the junk pile ... in the distant mists of time, musicians were actually able to play in a venue, without any powered assistance ... Believe It, Or Not ... . 

[GregWormald]

10 hours ago, botrytis said:

Not always true. There are no absolutes in this hobby. I mean, Emotiva amps are inexpensive and bullet proof. 

No absolutes—agree.

Emotiva amps—I have no first-hand experience but from the reviews I've read they are indeed a bargain. However they don't match my understanding of the words "cheap" or "accurate" to a high degree. I reckon they fit in the middle of the triangle somewhere.

10 hours ago, botrytis said:

I find it ironic that Frank agrees with you, Mr. Cheap himself.

Frank says things with which I don't agree, and things with which I do agree—like most people. How does his agreement affect my statement?

 

Please people, a "response" is supposed to respond to something, not go in a different direction. Not that new directions are forbidden, but the connections to the original are likely missing. 

 

A bit of thought and logic also go a long way. For instance, comparing prices "back in the day" to "these days" to determine cheap doesn't seem relevant. I bought a fully set-up Linn Sondek, arm and cartridge for $700 (t/t still in use), and a Rolex Submariner Date for $270 (still on my wrist and has saved my life a couple of times). Compare those prices to today's prices.

[Confused]

I guess there are two ways of approaching this topic, subjective experience and / or objective measurements.

 

In terms of my subjective experience, I have some equipment that to my ears sounds noticeably worse when listened to from a cold start.

 

The most extreme example of this is an old Pure digital tuner that I have. These days I use this only on very rare occasions. Form a cold start, it sounds dreadful, but give it 15 minutes to half an hour, it improves markedly. It is impossible to know for sure, but I suspect that this relates to the clock warm up issue that @firedogmentioned earlier in this thread.

 

I would not state that the above is an absolute for all equipment that might rely on clocks. As another subjective example, I have an RME ADI-2 DAC fs as a desktop headphone amp. In a typical week for me this goes a few days without use, so I turn it off. Yet with the RME I find that subjectively it sounds just fine when listening from cold. OK, it could be that there is some improvement if left on for a while, but this is not something that I have noticed. A stark contrast to the old Pure tuner, that just plain sounds rough from cold. A little bit of speculation from myself, maybe the clock in the RME is just plain better than the one in the Pure, such that from cold the Pure is operating in a range that subjectively influences sound quality, whereas the even if the RME might not be at it's absolute optimum performance, it is still "good enough" not to exhibit anything subjectively noticeable. 

 

Perhaps relevant to the OP, I also have a Devialet amp. This can be100% tuned off, but by default it stays in a "stand by" mode. It is also a difficult thing to keep tuned on, as if you are not actually playing music through it for a period of time it will tun itself off into standby mode. With the Devialet I find that it does not sound at it's absolute best when tuned on from standby, and sounds a small step noticeably worse if started from a full cold tun off. That said, from stand by mode I find it takes maybe 10 to 20 minutes, no longer, to sound just fine, and half an hour is good enough from a full cold start. Sometimes if I know I am about to sit down for some serious listening, I will try and turn it on a few minutes in advance. Why not? Although this is not a big deal, it is still perfectly listenable immediately from a standby start.

 

What does puzzle me a little are the claims that something needs to be powered up for a number of days to sound at it's best. Just looking at this logically, if something has been running for say 12 hours or more, it will be at a fairly stable temperature, and the audio clocks will have done most of what they need to do to reach stability. It strikes me that after something has been powered up for a few hours, then temperature changes due to ambient conditions or due to the use of the equipment, say how much power you are demanding from an amplifier, are likely to have far more influence on temperature than more prior time being powered up.

 

I might be wrong with the above, there might be other factors I am not considering, but this seems logical to me.

 

 

[audiobomber]

IME, 20 minutes warmup does it, nothing more needed. 

[botrytis]

9 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

IME, 20 minutes warmup does it, nothing more needed. 

 

Well, I used to leave my Pioneer M-22 on, not because of the sound but because in winter, it helped to heat my cold room up. 🤣

[Lebouwsky]

Tubes, love them. But they need a minute to start up, take 5 minutes to become listenable and an hour to sound good. And after that it keeps getting better. 

 

My system contains 26 tubes, it costs me around 1000 dollar to replace them, which I do every 2 years. There’s no way I’m keeping the system on 24/7. Primaluna is very clear about that. 
 

The audio pc is powered by a Paul Hynes SR7t power supply. Paul advised me to keep it on for life span, but I never heard a degrade in sound when I turned it off and the next day on.

 

That said, my audio memory is very bad and my appreciation for this system is partly dependent on my mood. Beer is an excellent audio upgrader for example.

[ASRMichael]

Now with increased energy costs in uk (double since this time last year) I now leave my server & LPS on. But turn off my AMP & DAC. I have Crestron system, so, I program this to turn DAC & Amp on from a Monday to Friday at 16:00. Then shut down at 8pm. If I’m listening it’ll be from 17:30 to 20:00. Then at weekends it’s on from noon to 8pm.

Effectively giving the amp & DAC 1.5 hours to sound its best. 

 

Prior to this was on all the time. 

[bobbmd]

check out what the founders and their elves say at Schiit Audio- ie Mike Moffat and Jason Stoddard etal. They have said you can and should keep the DAC on always-mine being Yggdrasil GS(never even gets warm neither did all it's predecessors 99$ and up) and I do but don't have to shut down my Ragnarok 2(just the amp) at night-- and it never goes above room temp to my touch. There is something to be said about constantly turning these precise high end pieces on/off and Schiit alludes to this somewhere in their literature. What I do do with the DAC is move the input button to something not used so the output goes blank-plus the switch in back is too hard to use I think for on purpose whereas the Amp switch is easily  reached and curved and  easy to use and by Schiit standards IS meant to be turned off. Correct me if I am wrong but the amount of power used is minimal--and I NEVER turned my my old retired late 2012 i7 mac mini off nor do I do that to my new M1 mac mini that is definitely a NO NO but I do put it to SLEEP.

[StephenJK]

On 4/16/2022 at 6:50 PM, fas42 said:

Review? Klipsch? ... Hmm, must have been an alternate universe that you were tuning in to ...

Ah, it was just a comment made in another thread.  Not a big deal.  I was trying to be amusing but obviously was not.  

 

However, I'm glad that you agree that any stereo should be turned off when not in use.  We're making progress.  

 

 

[fas42]

43 minutes ago, StephenJK said:

Ah, it was just a comment made in another thread.  Not a big deal.  I was trying to be amusing but obviously was not.  

 

However, I'm glad that you agree that any stereo should be turned off when not in use.  We're making progress.  

 

 

 

Ah, being amusing ... one of the harder things to get right in life ... .

 

Like most things in life, the answer to "any sonic advantage to leaving stereo gear turned on at all times" is, unfortunately, that it depends. On how fussy a listener you are, on how well engineered the components are, on whether the SQ goes through a trough of being unpleasant while warming up, and on and on it goes ...

 

Personally, if a system sounds pleasant on cold switch on, does nothing obviously wrong; and the only change is that it develops more depth, subjective size and realism through any warming up period then I have no problem with always switching it off - then it comes down to, how important are those variations to you, in your daily life?

[StephenJK]

23 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Ah, being amusing ... one of the harder things to get right in life ... .

 

Like most things in life, the answer to "any sonic advantage to leaving stereo gear turned on at all times" is, unfortunately, that it depends. On how fussy a listener you are, on how well engineered the components are, on whether the SQ goes through a trough of being unpleasant while warming up, and on and on it goes ...

 

Personally, if a system sounds pleasant on cold switch on, does nothing obviously wrong; and the only change is that it develops more depth, subjective size and realism through any warming up period then I have no problem with always switching it off - then it comes down to, how important are those variations to you, in your daily life?

Hey, that's a good answer - "It depends".  When someone comes across this site, and asks that question about leaving gear on or not, we can start with that.  

[fas42]

Hmmm ... sounds like you're the man to go to, if I want to ask the question, "What car should I buy?" ...

[StephenJK]

5 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Hmmm ... sounds like you're the man to go to, if I want to ask the question, "What car should I buy?" ...

The one that best suits your needs, and your budget.  True for most things.....

[fas42]

Ah, it depends ... who woulda thunk it ...

[kelvinwsy]

On 4/19/2022 at 4:37 AM, ASRMichael said:

Now with increased energy costs in uk (double since this time last year) I now leave my server & LPS on. But turn off my AMP & DAC. I have Crestron system, so, I program this to turn DAC & Amp on from a Monday to Friday at 16:00. Then shut down at 8pm. If I’m listening it’ll be from 17:30 to 20:00. Then at weekends it’s on from noon to 8pm.

Effectively giving the amp & DAC 1.5 hours to sound its best. 

 

Prior to this was on all the time. 

 

[kelvinwsy]

In my use case, Tube amps off after use, TT phono amp with 2 x12ax7 tubes left on weekend for TT sessions. Off on weekdays

Digital system.. PC server off but Pcie USB card with Txco clocks just like my DAC abd  DDC switched on min 2 hoyrs b4 listening sessions and left on until I know I wont be listening again until say 24 hours later

Sound Quality with key components fully warmed up is smoother and more impactful bass and full elimination of any hifreq nasties ! 

[StephenJK]

I would like to make one more point - I 'm pleased that there was little to no commentary on "leave it on because the manufacturer says so".  I think manufacturers will follow the fashion and trends of the day because they have to.

 

Some people think there's a big advantage in leaving gear on all the time - Yup, you can do that, and we'll install a standby switch for you.  

 

People want glass viewing ports on their DAC with blue LEDs nested behind?  Check. 

 

Solid aluminum cases machined from a single billet?  Check, and doesn't it look nice.  

 

Oh, you're concerned about power quality?  We can make something that will give you "pure" power.  You're welcome.  Who doesn't want pure power?

 

MQA is the greatest thing since raisin bread?  Gotcha covered - MQA ready with a little light and everything.  No problemo.

 

I think being involved with power and control systems for industrial and mining machines I'm a lot more concerned about locking equipment out, uncontrolled motion, unnecessary run time and that sort of thing than people in different industries. 

 

Yeah, I know that's nothing like a home stereo system, but the thought that "If you're not using it, turn it off" is hard to move past.  And yes, as another person mentioned, with the Devialet monoblocks you can program a sleep and shutdown time.  I just can't bring myself to do it - when I shut down for the evening everything gets turned off.  

[Allan F]

48 minutes ago, StephenJK said:

I would like to make one more point - I 'm pleased that there was little to no commentary on "leave it on because the manufacturer says so".  I think manufacturers will follow the fashion and trends of the day because they have to.

 

FWIW, I asked the manufacturer of a solid state amplifier (with no standby) if he recommended that it be left on all the time. His advice was to turn it off at the end of the listening day.

[fas42]

Out of interest, because I read several times over the years that leaving gear on is better for electronics, I looked around a bit - and just found, by a recording professional, this comment,

 

Quote

My career covers several record companies and many studios where I did production work as well as tech maintenance. One of the strict rules in all cases was that the gear stayed fired up 24/7…, and damned the electric bill. we found out over time, that we experienced fewer maintenance problems by leaving everything on, all the time…,AND, as a side effect, we noticed that the stuff sounded better as well. Even the tube gear suffered less if left on, save for a few heat sensitive components crapping out once in a while. This was usually remedied with a well placed cooling fan, or separation space in the rack.

 

But, what would he know ... ?

[StephenJK]

36 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Out of interest, because I read several times over the years that leaving gear on is better for electronics, I looked around a bit - and just found, by a recording professional, this comment,

 

 

But, what would he know ... ?

Whatever, dude. 

 

You win, I lose. 

 

As long as you're happy, that's what matters.  Second hand knowledge - take it for what it's worth.  

 

It's unfortunate - I was hoping to have a serious discussion on a forum where there are people who can answer in a serious and thoughtful fashion.  You seem to be more interested in anything but that.