Unpopular opinion... I don't think Eric Clapton is very great.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

By the way, Wagner's famous article is not as one-dimentional as one who has not read it might be tempted to think :-)

Irrelevant. It's highly anti-Semitic. Why make excuses for it?

[bluesman]

12 hours ago, RHSims said:

Arguably, the British Invasion reintroduced the US classic blues players to the US where they were pretty much marginalized and ignored.

Ain't that the truth, though?  One of my favorite blues composers / singers / guitarists (and equally stellar at all 3) is a Brooklyn guy named Michael Hill.  Sadly, he's another world class guy about whom almost nobody knows.  HIs lyrics are poetry and his playing is like velvet that's sometimes burning and sometimes icy.  Among the many wonderful lyrics he's written is this gem of a line about marginalized and ignored blues greats: "Maybe some day our heroes will get paid while they're alive".

 

 

 

 

FWIW, Michael Hill is anyone's equal for prowess, taste, skill, knowledge, and musicianship.  He's one of my favorite artists in any genre - he's genuine, he's exciting to hear, and by all accounts I've heard he's a good guy as well.  Give him a listen!

[AnotherSpin]

36 minutes ago, firedog said:

Irrelevant. It's highly anti-Semitic. Why make excuses for it?

 

I see no need to put into what I have said what is not there. Jud mentioned Wagner's anti-Semitism. It seems to me that such a label is a consequence of oversimplification. Everyone can draw their own conclusion, the article is accessible, the text is not long. Also, I don't think I want to delve further into the subject.

[Bill Brown]

Re. TVBO my gut feeling is not to include things re. artist behavior.  I'd prefer it to be simply about the music/art.  I suspect many of us know the backstories, could research it if we don't, and as you alluded to, there is much we don't know about many others.  All of us have our failings (not excusing the egregious ones, of course).

 

Bill

[AudioDoctor]

People... OF COURSE I HAVE LISTENED TO BLUESBREAKERS, AND CREAM, ETC... And I am still not enamored EC.

[AudioDoctor]

12 hours ago, RHSims said:

The point is nothing. Entropy. This is a dead-end thread.

 

Lucky for you, I am not forcing you to read it.

[AudioDoctor]

IMO this doesn't even sound like Blues...

 

 

[Albrecht]

17 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

I assumed that the people who populate this forum are smart enough to figure that out. Additionally, in the very title I stated that "I don't think EC is very great." I did not say that EC sucks, or EC is objectively bad and if you think he's good, you suck too. I merely stated my opinion.

True that, - this is all art... and defined by, what “artists” say it is: that is no real universalizable definition. 

One can derive objective statements to subjective areas: “John McLaughlin can play more distinct notes per a given time measure of musical phrases than Eric Clapton.” 

Of course, - many people might not value that at all, and say “so what.” 

I can’t understand why people do this with classifications as well. In the past the record labels told the record stores where to put their releases in what bins, in what section, of the store. I never found Frank Zappa records in the Jazz section, or Hugh Masekela either. 

 

A lot of say, - “that’s not jazz”  Which translates as: “I don’t like it, so it’s not good jazz to me.”

[bluesman]

23 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

IMO this doesn't even sound like Blues...

 

It doesn't sound like the classic 12 bar blues you're probably used to because it's not.  The chord structure is different and the form is less repetitive.  It has many of the elements of a classical piece, including two separate movements and interessting key modulations.  That famous guitar lick is truly a leitmotif, in the manner of Glass, Bach, Lizst, Schumann, and Strauss.  But it's just another way of singing the blues. 

 

As the story goes (with pretty good corroboration), Clapton wrote it, with input from drummer Jim Gordon, to express his angst about being in love with Pattie Boyd (George Harrison's wife at the time) after reading a Persian epic poem about unrequited love called Layla and Manjun.  He wrote it to be a ballad, and it makes a pretty fine blues ballad for sure.  Although I've never heard a recording of it as a true ballad, his Unplugged version has many traditional elements of older blues styles.  The guitar accompaniment's in a classic blues vein, and even the chord changes are set in an alternative blues format.  The piano part has a lot of Pinetop Perkins in it, with an assist from Allen Toussaint and Dr John.  

 

 

It became a rock tune after the album on which it was introduced turned out to be a sales dud - Clapton's name was nowhere on the front and buried in the jacket notes on the back.  But with some massaging from Tom Dowd, it turned into the rock anthem with which you (and I, FWIW) are not in love.

 

The blues is not just a specific musical form or style - it's one of the the most basic musical expressions of emotion, and it takes many forms. For me, the essence of the blues is summed up by Pattie Boyd's comment about Clapton and his music:

 

"He's such an incredible musician that he's able to put his emotions into music in such a way that the audience can feel it instinctively. It goes right through you."

 

The classic guitar lick was added by Duane Allman (playing as a guest with Derek & the Dominos) when the song was first played by them.  Allman may have independently made it up, but it's the opening vocal line from Albert King's "As The Years Go Passing By" and that's probably where he got it - it's the exact same opening line that Albert sings (this video will open right to it):

 

 

There's an old and apocryphal story about a young Clapton that has him talking to another blues guitarist of note about his performance at a major blues concert.  BB King was the best known performer, and Clapton (like the others on the program) wanted to make a good impression on the King.  He described a major breakthrough, and major frustration, after playing his heart out for his portion of the program....... "BB came out, hit one note, and got a standing ovation!"

 

As I always say, it ain't what you play - it's how you play it.

[Allan F]

16 hours ago, JoshM said:

But he’s also a famous curmudgeon who can be a total asshole.

 

Ain't that the truth! At the end of a one hour show, for example - literally at 60:00:00 - he just gets up and walks off the stage.  But he has written and recorded some great music.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, bluesman said:

 

It doesn't sound like the classic 12 bar blues you're probably used to because it's not.  The chord structure is different and the form is less repetitive.  It has many of the elements of a classical piece, including two separate movements and interessting key modulations.  That famous guitar lick is truly a leitmotif, in the manner of Glass, Bach, Lizst, Schumann, and Strauss.  But it's just another way of singing the blues. 

 

As the story goes (with pretty good corroboration), Clapton wrote it, with input from drummer Jim Gordon, to express his angst about being in love with Pattie Boyd (George Harrison's wife at the time) after reading a Persian epic poem about unrequited love called Layla and Manjun.  He wrote it to be a ballad, and it makes a pretty fine blues ballad for sure.  Although I've never heard a recording of it as a true ballad, his Unplugged version has many traditional elements of older blues styles.  The guitar accompaniment's in a classic blues vein, and even the chord changes are set in an alternative blues format.  The piano part has a lot of Pinetop Perkins in it, with an assist from Allen Toussaint and Dr John.  

 

 

It became a rock tune after the album on which it was introduced turned out to be a sales dud - Clapton's name was nowhere on the front and buried in the jacket notes on the back.  But with some massaging from Tom Dowd, it turned into the rock anthem with which you (and I, FWIW) are not in love.

 

The blues is not just a specific musical form or style - it's one of the the most basic musical expressions of emotion, and it takes many forms. For me, the essence of the blues is summed up by Pattie Boyd's comment about Clapton and his music:

 

"He's such an incredible musician that he's able to put his emotions into music in such a way that the audience can feel it instinctively. It goes right through you."

 

The classic guitar lick was added by Duane Allman (playing as a guest with Derek & the Dominos) when the song was first played by them.  Allman may have independently made it up, but it's the opening vocal line from Albert King's "As The Years Go Passing By" and that's probably where he got it - it's the exact same opening line that Albert sings (this video will open right to it):

 

 

There's an old and apocryphal story about a young Clapton that has him talking to another blues guitarist of note about his performance at a major blues concert.  BB King was the best known performer, and Clapton (like the others on the program) wanted to make a good impression on the King.  He described a major breakthrough, and major frustration, after playing his heart out for his portion of the program....... "BB came out, hit one note, and got a standing ovation!"

 

As I always say, it ain't what you play - it's how you play it.

 

2 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

IMO this doesn't even sound like Blues...

 

 

 

@AudioDoctor- Don't think it says anywhere on the album it's a blues album. Probably that's why the subtitle of the album is "and other assorted love songs".

 It's pretty clearly Clapton's very personal interpretation of his emotional state at the time. As @Bluesman says, it isnt classic blues - but it certainly is in the general feel and overall style of the music. I personally think it's a great album that uses the blues as a jumping off point for Clapton's personal statement. I'm not sure that the most intelligent way of approaching it is criticizing it b/c it isn't a "blues" album.

[57gold]

Clapton created his voice by assimilating blues harmony and melodies into his early playing and then incorporating it into rock/pop tunes that he recorded and performed over the rest of his career.  Even his borrowed reggae hit and the cool clip of him playing a few pages back, exemplifies this approach, reggae changes and rhythm with EC playing minor blues lines for his intro and solo breaks.  

 

The Layla album does have a few blues tunes: Nobody Knows, Key to the Highway, Have You Ever Loved a Woman, and It's Too Late are all 100% blues forms, but they make up less than half the album.  A majority of the rest of the songs have blues influences in terms of harmony and EC's and Duane's solos.

 

One interesting observation, after EVH named EC as his major influence, EC commented that he didn't hear himself in any of the VH music or EVH's playing...kinda shrugged his shoulders.  Believe that EC was doing a Miles-like assessment.  Miles felt that Coltrane overplayed and hogged the stage with extended solos, playing too many notes and guessing EC felt similarly about EVH's tapping gymnastic and whammy bar horse noises and squeals... 

 

 

[Allan F]

1 hour ago, bluesman said:

There's an old and apocryphal story about a young Clapton that has him talking to another blues guitarist of note about his performance at a major blues concert.  BB King was the best known performer, and Clapton (like the others on the program) wanted to make a good impression on the King.  He described a major breakthrough, and major frustration, after playing his heart out for his portion of the program....... "BB came out, hit one note, and got a standing ovation!"

 

It is apocryphal and it's probably not true. It would be anything but surprising for an adoring crowd to welcome BB with a standing ovation as soon as he played his first note at any concert. There is the untrue story that circulated about someone asking Clapton what it was like to be the greatest guitar player in the world, and Clapton replying, "I don't know. Ask Prince" - a virtually identical story circulated years earlier about Jimi Hendrix with, "Ask Phil Keaggy", substituted for, "Ask Prince", in the reply.

[Allan F]

48 minutes ago, firedog said:

 It's pretty clearly Clapton's very personal interpretation of his emotional state at the time. As @Bluesman says, it isn't classic blues - but it certainly is in the general feel and overall style of the music. I personally think it's a great album that uses the blues as a jumping off point for Clapton's personal statement. I'm not sure that the most intelligent way of approaching it is criticizing it b/c it isn't a "blues" album.

 

The album contains far more "bluesy" sounding tracks than Layla, such as Bell Bottom Blues and the traditional Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out. I totally agree with your comment about it being "Clapton's very personal interpretation of his emotional state at the time". Sadly, when Pattie rejected him at the time, he took solace in heroin.

[bluesman]

28 minutes ago, 57gold said:

Miles felt that Coltrane overplayed and hogged the stage with extended solos, playing too many notes and guessing EC felt similarly about

I’d be surprised to learn that anyone thinks Clapton’s general approach to improvisation resembles Miles’ in any way at all.  Most of his electric blues solos are filled with rapid hammer-ones, pull offs, and rapidly repetitive riffs between elegantly built lightning runs. He is far from a spare and subtle soloist.

 

Those who doubt Clapton’s blues roots, reverence, and knowledge should listen to his album “Me and Mr Johnson”.  He presents the same dichotomy as Buddy Guy, who’s best known for lightning fast flurries and a bit of a heavy hand (and would have been Hendrix before Hendrix if his manager hadn’t stopped him with a warning that no one would buy records like that).  But a listen to Guy as he backs Cotton on acoustic reveals his blues roots too.  These guys are the real deal.

[57gold]

Never compared EC's playing to Miles, only speculated on why EC didn't hear himself in EVH. The comparisons were Miles to Coltrane and EC to EVH.  

 

EC's nickname was Slowhand and EVH was anything but that.

[Allan F]

2 hours ago, 57gold said:

EC's nickname was Slowhand and EVH was anything but that.

 

As a guitar player, EC has never been or considered to be "slow". Contrary to common belief, the nickname "Slowhand" was not meant to be ironic. In fact, the history of "Slowhand" has nothing to do with the speed of EC's playing. At a Yardbirds concert, Clapton broke a string -  a not uncommon occurrence given the light gauge he used. Rather than hand his guitar to a roadie between songs to replace the string, he took the time to replace it himself. As English audiences are wont to do when bored or impatient, they resorted to a slow handclap. This, combined with the pun on Clapton's name, led Yardbirds manager Giorgio Gomelsky to coin the nickname "Slowhand".

[RHSims]

11 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Lucky for you, I am not forcing you to read it.

 

“I intentionally started a discussion about the greatness of EC. You're free to challenge my opinions but expecting more than, I don't like him or find him great, will get you nowhere.”

 

A really good definition of a troll. What is there to discuss?

[RHSims]

13 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Rather than be abrasive, you can use the big red button at the top. 

 

The original post is an abrasive troll I won’t bother to quote, followed up with:

 

“I intentionally started a discussion about the greatness of EC. You're free to challenge my opinions but expecting more than, I don't like him or find him great, will get you nowhere.”

 

There  is no discussion there, nothing, call it what you like.

 

I heard that the internet was self policing/evaluating/correcting, whatever.

[AudioDoctor]

34 minutes ago, RHSims said:

 

“I intentionally started a discussion about the greatness of EC. You're free to challenge my opinions but expecting more than, I don't like him or find him great, will get you nowhere.”

 

A really good definition of a troll. What is there to discuss?

 

You know that this forum is for discussion, right? Of topics that you may not even like or agree with.

[John Dyson]

1 minute ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

You know that this forum is for discussion, right? Of topics that you may not even like or agree with.

I agree -- we should not be threatened by opinions that we disagree about (well, unless about life & death or similar critical issue.)

In moments of weakness, each of us has probably misaken an opinion as an assertion, but I think that we are grown-ups and definitely not get hurt feelings different people's intepretation of music & performance.

 

Listening to music is connected to emotions somehow, and the walls between our feelings and how we act on them are sometimes thin.

 

Most important,  kindness should always be our mantra, because even if we disagree, we can be kind.   I think that most people need MORE friends rather than less.  Friends can always disagree about very many things, but condemnation, rudeness or unkindness -- what is the benefit to ANYONE AT ALL?!??!

 

About Clapton -- he isn't high on my listening list, but I do very much enjoy some of his recordings.    I guess that makes my opinion that he isn't all that great, but he has gone a long way in his career, and lasted for a long time -- so he must be doing something right.

 

[RHSims]

1 minute ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

You know that this forum is for discussion, right? Of topics that you may not even like or agree with.

It’s not a  discussion if you announce in advance that you won’t change your mind. There is no exchange of ideas, i.e., not a discussion. Sorry.

[AudioDoctor]

Just now, RHSims said:

It’s not a  discussion if you announce in advance that you won’t change your mind. There is no exchange of ideas, i.e., not a discussion. Sorry.

 

So why are you still here?

[Samuel T Cogley]

On 3/10/2021 at 11:36 AM, Bill Brown said:

You need to read more closely.  As I wrote, I know people who have had it that DO advocate it:

 

"And I have seen many patients who have undergone ECT and think it was very valuable"

 

It wasn't clear to me that you have undergone ECT and are advocating it.  My apologies.

[Bill Brown]

2 hours ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

It wasn't clear to me that you have undergone ECT and are advocating it.  My apologies.

 

Huh??