Unpopular opinion... I don't think Eric Clapton is very great.

[AudioDoctor]

47 minutes ago, Allan F said:

You started and, intentionally or otherwise - I strongly suspect the former - provoked a discussion. Therefore, regardless of the topic being of far less than any great social significance, challenging your opinions is not only fair game, it should be expected.

 

I intentionally started a discussion about the greatness of EC. You're free to challenge my opinions but expecting more than, I don't like him or find him great, will get you nowhere.

[Bill Brown]

4 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

Like I said, those advocating the treatment have never received it...

You need to read more closely.  As I wrote, I know people who have had it that DO advocate it:

 

"And I have seen many patients who have undergone ECT and think it was very valuable"

[charlesphoto]

42 minutes ago, Priaptor said:

There YOU go again. First did I say he "IS THE GREATEST" or "one of the greatest" by every objective metric. Very different.

 

Second your woke garbage doesn't make him any less great.

 

Lastly for someone accusing me of "want/need the last word" you sure couldn't help yourself from trying to get the last word. 

Fair enough. But you don't have to constantly use 'woke' as an insult - it's dead giveaway where you most likely get your info about the world from. 

[Allan F]

7 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

I intentionally started a discussion about the greatness of EC. You're free to challenge my opinions but expecting more than, I don't like him or find him great, will get you nowhere.

 

Or, perhaps even more significantly, gets your opinions nowhere. 😊

[AudioDoctor]

Just now, Allan F said:

 

Or, perhaps even more significantly, gets your opinions nowhere. 😊

 

That's ok, I am not on a crusade to get people to not like EC...

 

This is an example of Blues I DO like.

 

 

[Allan F]

3 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

This is an example of Blues I DO like.

 

All the Kings - Albert, B.B. and Freddie - were great blues players.

[charlesphoto]

19 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

When Miles was on heroin approx. 1949-1954 he did bad things, including pimping.  Later assaulted wives.

 

I separate the art from the person.  I suspect we would be shocked by lots of artists' behaviors if we were able to dig into the details..

 

I was going to make clear that any comments in this thread (was able to resist early on) from me were related to musical issues only.

 

Bill

Yep, all well known. It was also part of the times and his struggle, for better or worse, for him and others. Doesn't excuse the behavior, of course, it was fairly heinous.. But can you imagine if Miles was still alive and came out and did a number in 2020 like Clapton/Morrison did? Rich old men sitting pretty, who are affiliated with the rock and roll counter culture, or at least were in some capacity at one time, should know better. I know plenty of musicians, club owners, stage hands, etc etc who are suffering significantly more than either of these two ever have in the past 50 years, and they're not calling for a re-opening so that grandma could potentially die. They would like some help financially, for sure, but not calling out mask wearing as being throttling.

 

Times change, but some just don't want to change with it, and that to me is a bigger problem vs bad things done at a time when, sadly, those bad things were more tolerated as normal. Jerry Lee Lewis marrying his 14 year old cousin was wrong, but more tolerated in the South in the 1950's. Marilyn Manson grooming teenage girls for abuse in the 2000's - we all know now that's very very wrong and he should be demonized as such, and 'canceled' no matter what your opinion of his music is. Probably makes me a hypocrite, but so be it. 

 

 

Anyway, back on point, EC is no Miles, musically at least, to me, that's for sure. Not even close. 

[Allan F]

10 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

Rich old men sitting pretty, who are affiliated with the rock and roll counter culture, or at least were in some capacity at one time, should know better. I know plenty of musicians, club owners, stage hands, etc etc who are suffering significantly more than either of these two ever have in the past 50 years, and they're not calling for a re-opening so that grandma could potentially die.

 

To be fair, Morrison and Clapton were not expressing concern for their own situations. Clapton overcame both his heroin and alcohol demons and is the founder and a sponsor of the Crossroads Treatment Centre for addiction in Antigua.

[Bill Brown]

I don't mean to quantify "sins" and I love Miles' music (and agree he is more important, certainly to me) but I am not sure that a stance on COVID rises to the level of spousal abuse or the sexual abuse of minors.

 

I am ridiculously involved with COVID in my work, and have strict guidelines in place to protect our patients, but there is certainly room for nuance (based on the science) in how we could have/should have approached it in the community.  I probably wouldn't have approached it exactly the way we did.

 

Here I am again discussing non-musical stuff :)

 

There are artists that I like/respect and others that I love/can't imagine I could live without/"knock me out."  Examples include:

 

EC v Duane Allman, Buddy Guy (have never heard him play a cliche' in his life!!), Muddy Waters, RJ, SRV, etc. etc.

Sonny Rollins v Coltrane, Charlie Parker

King Oliver v Louis Armstrong

Mozart v Ravel

Sly Stone v James Brown

Peter Tosh v Bob Marley

Soundgarden v Nirvana and Alice in Chains

etc.

 

EC never "knocked me out," though I listen to his music and enjoy him and think he is a gifted musician.

 

A couple of months ago my son showed me this.  He and I talk a lot about artists who are "all in," every time they play- SRV is a classic example.  It was the first time EC "knocked me out."  Love his solo.  There is a beginning, an arc, and a finish (see Duane Allman).  Someone mentioned very early the appropriation of Bob Marley.  I think it is fine and has a long tradition in music (and suspect Bob Marley would like it too).  If you don't like EC's part you can still groove to Nathan East and Steve Gadd :).  And it sounds pretty good on the big system! :

 

 

Bill

[Allan F]

11 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

A couple of months ago my son showed me this.  He and I talk a lot about artists who are "all in," every time they play- SRV is a classic example.  It was the first time EC "knocked me out."  Love his solo.  There is a beginning, an arc, and a finish (see Duane Allman).  Someone mentioned very early the appropriation of Bob Marley.  I think it is fine and has a long tradition in music (and suspect Bob Marley would like it too).  If you don't like EC's part you can still groove to Nathan East and Steve Gadd :).  And it sounds pretty good on the big system! :

 

Great clip. BTW, I  love the cut early on to Ronnie Wood grooving on the music.

[Bill Brown]

5 minutes ago, Allan F said:

I  love the cut early on to Ronnie Wood grooving on the music.

 

Great pick-up!

 

I was going to point out how "even his peers were enjoying it" but didn't want to push my luck with the tough crowd. :)

 

Bill

[Bill Brown]

Knowing you a bit, I suspect you have some chops, but if God was to reach down and bless me with his I don't think I would complain....

 

Bill

[Allan F]

3 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

Knowing you a bit, I suspect you have some chops, but if God was to reach down and bless me with his I don't think I would complain....

 

Bill

 

I wish. I play guitar, but the quality of my instruments far exceeds my ability to play them. My avatar is a photo of my Martin 000-28EC.

[charlesphoto]

36 minutes ago, Bill Brown said:

I don't mean to quantify "sins" and I love Miles' music (and agree he is more important, certainly to me) but I am not sure that a stance on COVID rises to the level of spousal abuse or the sexual abuse of minors.

 

 

it's a conundrum for sure, and I'm playing a bit more than devil's advocate, in large part due to the tragedies I've seen befalling people due to COVID, both personally and on a large scale. Perhaps a better way to put what Clapton/Morrison did was 'tone deaf' vs criminal. 

[Bill Brown]

5 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

it's a conundrum for sure, and I'm playing a bit more than devil's advocate, in large part due to the tragedies I've seen befalling people due to COVID, both personally and on a large scale. Perhaps a better way to put what Clapton/Morrison did was 'tone deaf' vs criminal. 

 

I like this one.  Yes, it has affected so many.  My wife is a hospitalist.  Early in the epidemic they had the highest per-capita rate in the state (so much that the CDC visited trying to figure out what was going on- they did).

 

She and her partners have had many, many deaths, including both parents of one of their clerks.  As to the physicians (not discounting patients and families), it has taken a very heavy toll on them.  Typical tough guys breaking down, etc.  I tried to figure out why- we were in medical school together when the number of deaths from AIDS was at its peak (no effective treatments at the time, we just tried to identify opportunistic infections and treat them as best we could, though the outcome was always the same).  Our whole county hospital medical ICU was patients dying of AIDS.  I have learned that part of it is watching patients die alone.  Part of it is the fear the patients have in their eyes when their oxygen levels fall.  Part of it the unpredictability (they have lost many young without the obvious risk factors).

 

I'll include something musical.  I remember being "knocked out" in medical school when I heard Nevermind on the radio.  When I saw your pictures I was also "knocked out."  Fantastic.  What a life experience to have been present for all of that and your art is wonderful.  I must confess that I haven't listened yet, but expect that when I do they will be brought to life for me.

 

I have a collection of prints by Herman Leonard, thankfully from before Hurricane Katrina flooded his studio and before he died.  I am not a big possessions guy (try not to be anyway), but to have photos printed, signed, and numbered by the man himself (who was there!) of Charlie Parker, Holiday, Ellington, Sinatra, etc. brings me great joy.  Your work would be a nice addition...may need to prod the wife :)

 

Bill

[charlesphoto]

Thanks for the kind words Bill. I love Herman Leonard's work, amazing use of light. Better in many ways than Francis Wolff's similar, also very good work, esp as Leonard often shot the pics in the context of the location vs just as isolated figures, which is something I can relate to. 

 

What an exhausting past year this must have been for your wife. I'm glad we are starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel, though take your eyes off it and play dumb, and that exit may go away, just like that. Stay safe out there everyone. 

[Bill Brown]

9 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

Herman Leonard's work, amazing use of light

And cigarette smoke I guess :).

 

 

 

And yes re. my wife, but she is a trooper, hardest worker I have ever known (I always say can outwork me two times over).

 

The light at the end of the tunnel comment is a good one.  When I was trying to convince staff to be vaccinated I described it as the only way I could see any of that light, any way through it (including all the infection control/PPE stuff we are going through in hospitals).  I am thankful to have gotten the shot (and also told them that after my elderly parents and I got it that I was going for a visit!).

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[John Dyson]

4 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

You started and, intentionally or otherwise - I strongly suspect the former - provoked a discussion. Therefore, regardless of the topic being of far less than any great social significance, challenging your opinions is not only fair game, it should be expected.

 

 

My comment about "one soulful bend" was about guitar players, in general, not specifically about EC.

Challenging opinions about perception is unproductive.   Each person has their own taste -- judging others about their experience is a kind of prejudice.  I tend to accept others opinions of taste, whether or not I agree.   The more important thing is how people really affect others in life.  About the music, we talking subjective.   Encouraging mutual real pain -- that is concrete/objective/real-world.

 

From a cultural standpoint, it isn't wise to judge others, unless, again we are talking about strong negative effects from one person to another.  It is SOOO easy to misinterpret or be prejdiced without understanding the entire context.

For example, if someone sung something that suggests to kill other people, that would be judgement worthy.   Or, if someones worst aspects -- say, damage their family were ampified by any action, including music -- that would be something I'd feel comfortable to judge.

 

However, regarding Clapton being a great musician or not -- it is a matter of opinion and how someone experiences the music.  There are all kinds of music that are 'just bad sounding' to me, but many others enjoy it.   I am sure that there is stuff that I like, and some others really dislike my taste.  I don't judge the musician as bad just for dissonant music (IMO), but if they advocate breaking up families, or hurting other people -- that is where my judgement starts kicking in.

 

I think that it is perfectly okay to say 'Clapton isn't a great musician -- IN MY OPINION'.   Someone creating situations or music that hurt others, that is where I start feeling uncomfortable.   With the clearly stated 'opinion' statement, then it is easy and polite to ask 'why is that your opinion?' rather than just to judge the opinion.

 

Kindness wins in my opinion.   And even talking about one or the other musician 'not being great' AS AN ABSOLUTE will often create unproductive controversy.   In very select instances, when the situation is obvious and very concrete, then the matters or right/wrong, destructive or not -- there can be a conclusion/consensus.

 

I try to avoid making concrete claims that are wrong, but there is certainly never a personal bias on those matters, even then -- there will ALWAYS be people who disagree and try to create more problems.

 

 

 

 

[Allan F]

30 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

Challenging opinions about perception is unproductive.   Each person has their own taste -- judging others about their experience is a kind of prejudice. 

 

In your biased opinion, perhaps! 😊 Moreover, the challenge is not to the opinion itself but rather, and more importantly in my view, to the basis or lack thereof underlying that opinion.

 

The irony of you alleging prejudice in view of your recent misogynistic comments about Meghan Markle is rather incredulous.

[John Dyson]

22 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

In your biased opinion. 😊

I am about live and let-live, unless people or families are seriously hurt.  That is why, IMO, claims like 'XXX as a musician isn't great' really should be modified by an 'in my opinion'.   If XXX really hurt people or destroyed families, then that is a very different story.   There IS a right and wrong (sometimes in-between, still based on values) in the real world -- but the age of everything being relative can causes us to weaken our ethics and values. Accepting (but not necessarily agreeing) is NOT the same of relativism, where relativeism can confuse values.   This 'acceptance' of alternative music taste is the same kind of values and thinking that I ascribe.

 

Music taste tends not to have a right or wrong, unless it includes incitement-speech to directly hurt others or direct attempt to damage society.  Too often, simple statement of opinion or dissent are answered by very repressive knee-jerk forces.   The idea of true acceptance/but disagreeing seems to be falling out of favor, but I sure hope that it comes back.  (I am only talking about being open and free about non-inciting music lyrics & speech.)

 

Music taste is definitely a matter of opinion, because everyone appears to hear things differently and experience music differently.   Discussing the original statement in this thread could readlity be interpreted to be divisive, but adding 'in my opinon' can more easily open up a discussion.

I have had to listen to a lot of kinds of music, and really do understand that people can REALLY ENJOY something that I truly do not like -- but I accept the fact

.

 

 

[charlesphoto]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

And cigarette smoke I guess :).

 

 

 

 

 

Oh man, that light. Knowing how to control your light and making it look natural and psychologically effective at the same time is what sets an iconic photo apart imo. And then knowing how to print it. 

[charlesphoto]

Graham Nash is one of the nicest persons I've met in this journey of mine and we got to do an hour long radio interview together and a show - but I find his music utterly insipid. So it goes. The photographer Jim Marshall, who I met at the same time and shared a show and panel together, the first words out of his mouth were 'Well, fuck you,..." It has to be taken in context of the introduction by the local Leica camera rep who was an old friend of Jim's. I also knew that it was Jim's way of saying hello, and that if this offends you, then truly "fuck you!" I passed the test. He died a couple of months after that and I truly cherish that  I got to meet and sit right next to him on a panel of some heavy's in rock photography. 

[Priaptor]

20 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

Oh man, that light. Knowing how to control your light and making it look natural and psychologically effective at the same time is what sets an iconic photo apart imo. And then knowing how to print it. 

 

20 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

Oh man, that light. Knowing how to control your light and making it look natural and psychologically effective at the same time is what sets an iconic photo apart imo. And then knowing how to print it. 

Off topic.
 

Great photos. I love photography and know a lot about photography but admit that I suck as a photographer.  It’s really one of my joys and photos really remind me of music and very apropos to this “discussion”.

 

Photos move some of us while some could care less and then you have people who believe hey it’s a camera so why is one picture different than another to who I would say just look at the 2 examples in your post. 
 

As a lover of national parks one of my favorites is Ansel Adams. I was fortunate enough many years ago, back in the late 80s, to get a first edition with an original print from Mr Adams with the book signed at a steal. The unfortunate part is that my wife not quite understanding the sentimental or monetary value thought it would look good on our living room table. My incredible dog Riley, back in 2005, felt all things were his playground and had a ball with the book. Still “OK” but nowhere near “collectible”. But I LOVE the print. 
 

Similar to Clapton, there maybe people who aren’t moved by Ansel Adams and his amazing photos (although I have yet to find one), but anyone who chooses to spend a minute looking up who and what he has done would have to acknowledge his contributions and greatness to the art, similar to Clapton whether one likes him or not 

[AudioDoctor]

41 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

That is why, IMO, claims like 'XXX as a musician isn't great' really should be modified by an 'in my opinion'. 

 

I assumed that the people who populate this forum are smart enough to figure that out. Additionally, in the very title I stated that "I don't think EC is very great." I did not say that EC sucks, or EC is objectively bad and if you think he's good, you suck too. I merely stated my opinion.

[Priaptor]

10 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

I assumed that the people who populate this forum are smart enough to figure that out. Additionally, in the very title I stated that "I don't think EC is very great." I did not say that EC sucks, or EC is objectively bad and if you think he's good, you suck too. I merely stated my opinion.

Well this thread kind of reminds me of my 1969-1971 growing up days in Brooklyn. There were rules. You either swore your allegiance to The Dead or The Allman Brothers.  You couldn’t do both; sacrilege. While at the time I was no big Band fan my friend Jasmine (may he RIP) dragged me to a concert New Years eve at the Academy of Music in NY promising me, at least rumor had it Clapton was going to be there, BUT “unfortunately’ it was Dylan. And The Band Played On.