Unpopular opinion... I don't think Eric Clapton is very great.

[AnotherSpin]

4 hours ago, ShawnC said:

If you just use the terminology is Clapton great as in the title of the thread, I think yes, he's achieved that title and well deserved as early as the mid seventies.  Is he the greatest of all time, no.  But he reigns among the greatest that have played the blues.  The other thing to remember is that Clapton kept leaving bands that wanted to become popular.  He wanted to be a blues player only.  It was Jonh Mayall that told Clapton if you want to play what you want, then your gonna have to learn how to sing so you can play what you want.  

 

As far as popularity goes, Eric was and still is very passive.  He didn't ask or choose to be famous, it just happens.  Look at all those one hit wonders that you remember the name of the artist or band that created it.  People love a good come back story and Clapton created that with his drug recovery and his mission to help those who are suffering with drugs and alcohol.  Sure in the eighties he may have moved towards a more pop like blues playing style but he's playing what he wants and the vast majority of fans enjoyed what he put out.  Lost of artist ebb and sway throughout their career.

 

Now for those of you mentioned that Tears in Heaven was a money grab, shame on you.  A musician looses a child, has the ability to put his feelings into his art and puts it all out there for those who have had the same experience to grieve with, should be honored not ridiculed.  It made a lot of money because most people care and have feelings and it's a great acoustic riff.

 

If you take someone like John Mayer who is a great guitarist, he's never considered a top 10 or 20 guitarist in most polls and I'd rather listen to him play then Clapton.  Blues is a hard category to determine who's the greatest because once you know the guitar and the scales it all sounds the same.  It's what individuals do with there instruments that can single them out.  It's all in the hands for a guitarist, some have it, some don't.  Those who have it, well, we all know there names, those who don't are still good musicians but there's nothing that makes them stand out in the crowd.

 

Thanks for the mention of John Mayer, a fine guitarist. But even the one whose place he took in a very special band would never claim to be the greatest. First, because he wouldn't, and second, because he has a very unique place in the history of rock music. As has been said once before: GD played at a level that other musicians didn't even know existed. To be the greatest guitar player of them all, one has to be one of them. But one can be light years away from all of them.

[57gold]

1966-1971 EC was a key member of the rock n' roll pantheon of guitar gods, which included Jimi, Pagey, Duane, Jeff, David Gilmour...based upon their contributions to the music at that time.  

 

As guitarists, none of them were nor are master musicians, like Julian Lage, or John Scofield, or George Benson, or Wes, or Mike Stern...

 

Players active today who are masters of the electric blues/rock vernacular that EC led in the late 1960s include Matt Schofield, John Mayer, Robben Ford, Derek Trucks, Joey Landreth, Eric Gales, Marcus King, Robert Cray, Joe Bonamassa...

 

None of the above are the greatest blues player, for that you's have to take a look at BB, Albert, Buddy, Rbt Johnson...and pick the one you like.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, 57gold said:

As guitarists, none of them were nor are master musicians, like Julian Lage, or John Scofield, or George Benson, or Wes, or Mike Stern..

Those with the best "master" technique are not necessarily "the best". Music in the end is about communication and emotion. Technique can help you get there, but sometimes someone with a lesser techique does a better job of getting there. Clapton can be one of those at his best.

[57gold]

firedog, IMO there are no universal "bests".

 

Clearly, EC was a "great" and innovative guitarist in the world of rock 1966-1971.  Decent singer/songwriter since, whose playing never advanced from his great period and the whole world borrowed his stuff, which in part he borrowed from US blues players.

 

Julian and company above are great guitarists.  They all communicate and emote deeply, but everyone is not receptive to what they play and their jazz language.   Getting "there" is a different spot for different people.  

 

My kids have gifted me some new music that emotes them, recordings by King Krule and some dude with a mask known as Orville Peck...been through them a couple of times and not getting any "there" for me.  

 

Why record stores and now Amazon HD have millions of choices to get folks to their "there".

 

 

[loop7]

Why listen to Eric Clapton when there's Jeff Beck.

[57gold]

Jeff is an original player, riding the whammy bar to the max, and very musical cat.  

 

Since 1976's Wired, have had no use for his studio albums. I bought them all with great anticipation... To me, he has needed a great band like the ones he recorded with up to that point with members with songwriting skills. My guess is that he wanted to be the frontman, a position that is hard to maintain if you don't sing. To this day, the highlights of his shows are covers of other peoples tunes, mostly old catalogue, like the very fine performance, Live at Ronnie Scott's.

 

Shame that his band never performed at Woodstock, the one with Rod Stewart, a vocalist at that time that was up to the challenge.  But then we would have not gotten Blow by Blow or Wired, which to me are high points.

 

 

[fas42]

Don't have the knowledge of you guitar aficionados, but guitar playing in that area of music needs to give me the vibe as in this effort,

 

 

 

[christopher3393]

To me, this sez it all:

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

I just listened to two albums from the 60s British blues genre.

 

The first was The Pious Bird Of Good Omen from the 1960s Version of Fleetwood Mac as a Blues Band and then Bluesbreaker which is touted as the "best british blues album ever cut" according to the spiel Roon downloaded, and I disagree with that. Personally, I prefer the Fleetwood Mac version of 1960s British Blues more than I do the Bluesbreakers style. While Bluesbreakers isn't bad, by any means, I just like the more subdued style of Fleetwood Mac better.

[Jud]

 

 

https://johnmartyn.com/stories/show-me-how-to-fing-play-may-you-never/

[57gold]

Never heard of John Martyn, thanks for posting these links.

 

A very musical cat who seems to have been a ground breaking user of tape loop, which like everything else has been digitalized these days.  

 

Thought we might be related, as my great grandmother was a Martyn, but alas it's a stage name.

[Solstice380]

On 3/7/2021 at 4:53 PM, AudioDoctor said:

I just listened to two albums from the 60s British blues genre.

 

The first was The Pious Bird Of Good Omen from the 1960s Version of Fleetwood Mac as a Blues Band and then Bluesbreaker which is touted as the "best british blues album ever cut" according to the spiel Roon downloaded, and I disagree with that. Personally, I prefer the Fleetwood Mac version of 1960s British Blues more than I do the Bluesbreakers style. While Bluesbreakers isn't bad, by any means, I just like the more subdued style of Fleetwood Mac better.

Before he started the original Fleetwood Mac, Peter Green played in John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers.  He filled in for EC for a few gigs and when EC left, Mayall got him full time.  Then he got diagnosed with schizophrenia and it took him forever to come back from the electroshock therapy.  Yikes!  Then he made quite a few good blues(y) albums as Peter Green Splinter Group.  More than you wanted to know?

[ShawnC]

1 hour ago, Solstice380 said:

Before he started the original Fleetwood Mac, Peter Green played in John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers.  He filled in for EC for a few gigs and when EC left, Mayall got him full time.  Then he got diagnosed with schizophrenia and it took him forever to come back from the electroshock therapy.  Yikes!  Then he made quite a few good blues(y) albums as Peter Green Splinter Group.  More than you wanted to know?

and to add to the story of Peter Green, is his now famous Les Paul guitar aka Greeny.  If your a guitarists you already know the story but here's an article that sums it pretty well.

 

  https://www.thaliacapos.com/blogs/blog/one-legendary-guitar-three-legendary-owners-the-greeny-moore-les-paul

[AudioDoctor]

2 hours ago, Solstice380 said:

Before he started the original Fleetwood Mac, Peter Green played in John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers.  He filled in for EC for a few gigs and when EC left, Mayall got him full time.  Then he got diagnosed with schizophrenia and it took him forever to come back from the electroshock therapy.  Yikes!  Then he made quite a few good blues(y) albums as Peter Green Splinter Group.  More than you wanted to know?

 

To this day I am not a fan of ECT therapy...

 

I knew there were some mental health issues but I didnt know what they were or to what extent they caused the breakup of the original Fleetwood Mac.

[Solstice380]

1 hour ago, AudioDoctor said:

To this day I am not a fan of ECT therapy

Who is? Oh, you mean professionally speaking. 😜

[Bill Brown]

ECT can actually be remarkably effective, especially for schizophrenia with catatonia or severe major depression.

 

I had an attending, cool old dude, who told us that should he develop severe MD that he wanted ECT rather than meds.  He referred it (analogously to cardiac "shocking" or cardioversion) as "cerebroversion." :).

 

We used to administer it to patients in the county hospital (I did it as a medical student!  Ahhh...the good old days).

 

I wonder if some of the horror stories (and subsequent lay people negative perception) is from the persistent disorganized thinking that is one of the hallmarks of schizophrenia.

 

Also, in the old days it was done bilaterally (both brain hemispheres) and is now done unilaterally, this perhaps mitigating some of the downsides.

 

Just some thoughts for consideration. :)

 

Bill

 

Bill

[Samuel T Cogley]

Roky Erickson of the 13th Floor Elevators was sentenced to a mental hospital for drug possession.  There, he received quite a bit of ElectroConvulsive Therapy, and a lot of Thorazine.  It destroyed his mind.

 

Just watch the documentary You're Gonna Miss Me if you're curious to see the results of ECT.  I think the only people advocating ECT are ones that have never received it.

[audiobomber]

Please, let's have a bit of objectivity. You may not like his music, but to say Clapton is not great, after such a long and illustrious career, is absurd. I'm sure there are artists that you love and that others detest.

 

I own eleven Clapton albums, from various points in his career and I like all of them a lot. My favourite Clapton album is "Journeyman". I like "Reptile" and "Pilgrim" almost as much. "From The Cradle" is his best classic blues effort, and can stand with any of the old blues greats. The album "Layla & Other Assorted Love Songs" is one of the greatest rock/blues records of all time. But it's Duane Allman's guitar riffs on that album utterly blow me away, and I prefer Bobby Whitlock's singing to Clapton's. 

 

Guitar players talk about "feel" and "virtuosity". Feel is what I call great melody, and does not require great technique. Virtuosity is playing fast and accurately, but for me if the virtuosity does not have good melody, it is worthless (like most guitar shredders). My favourite guitarists for their feel; Duane Allman, David Gilmour and Carlos Santana. My favourite guitarists for virtuosity and originality; Jimi Hendrix, Jeff Beck and Frank Zappa.

 

Regarding the racist accusations, I don't look to musicians for moral guidance. Many of my favourites are/were not good human beings. I don't judge music based on a musician's moral character, or I'd have to purge a good percentage of my collection. 

 

Regarding Clapton stealing from old black blues players, I respect originators, but I also respect innovators. I would rather listen to Led Zeppelin than Willie Dixon, Eric Clapton over Robert Johnson. The Beatles, Rolling Stones, and countless others popularized Elmore James, Muddy Waters and Howlin' Wolf. Everyone benefitted, including the new fans. Don't think for a minute that Muddy and Son House weren't availing themselves of the music of others.  

 

Clapton playing with feel:

 

 

Virtuosity:

 

[audiobomber]

This is an interesting list: The Top Fifty Influential Blues Artists of All Time.

http://bluesjunctionproductions.com/the_top_fifty_influential_blues_artists_of_all_time

 

Note that Clapton made it into the top fifty:

 

Eric Clapton (1945 - )

Perhaps no one has turned more guitarists onto the blues than Clapton due to his huge  worldwide popularity with The Yardbirds, John Mayall, Cream and his own bands. His tone and style during his time with Mayall has become legendary, with hordes of guitarists snatching up the same equipment that he used in an attempt to recreate his sound. His From The Cradle album gave the blues a huge shot in the arm in 1994 when it was much needed, giving traditional blues songs a chance to be heard on commercial radio.

 

 

[Samuel T Cogley]

With due respect, the "you can't deny greatness" argument is lost on some of us.  The "hype of fame" often pushes aside objective analysis.  Music fandom can be a bizarre, slippery slope.  Just spend 15 minutes over at the Music Corner subforum at Hoffman to see what I mean.

 

"Who was the greatest X?" is common fodder there.  And the same arguments about the "greatness" of bands and musicians continue ad nauseam.   I'm not trying to dissuade people who like Clapton's music.  But it's just music, and he's just a musician.  "Greatness" is just another word for hype.

[The Computer Audiophile]

It's art. What's better red or blue. I'm not a fan of Clapton, but I am a huge fan of Pearl Jam. I'm sure many see it the opposite way. 

[audiobomber]

6 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

With due respect, the "you can't deny greatness" argument is lost on some of us.  The "hype of fame" often pushes aside objective analysis.  Music fandom can be a bizarre, slippery slope.  Just spend 15 minutes over at the Music Corner subforum at Hoffman to see what I mean.

 

"Who was the greatest X?" is common fodder there.  And the same arguments about the "greatness" of bands and musicians continue ad nauseam.   I'm not trying to dissuade people who like Clapton's music.  But it's just music, and he's just a musician.  "Greatness" is just another word for hype.

great: of ability, quality, or eminence considerably above the normal or average. "the great Italian conductor". 

 

Clapton qualifies.

[Samuel T Cogley]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

It's art. What's better red or blue. I'm not a fan of Clapton, but I am a huge fan of Pearl Jam. I'm sure many see it the opposite way. 

 

Hi Chris.  I'm simply suggesting people be more like listeners, and less like fan(atic)s.

[Samuel T Cogley]

Just now, audiobomber said:

great: of ability, quality, or eminence considerably above the normal or average. "the great Italian conductor". 

 

Clapton qualifies.

 

Ok, but this is subjective...

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

Hi Chris.  I'm simply suggesting people be more like listeners, and less like fan(atic)s.

I totally get it.