LessLoss Firewall for Loudspeakers

[Blake]

I read some good reviews on 6Moons about the LessLoss Firewall for Loudspeakers, and I noticed that Boenicke has a custom version incorporated into their top-level speakers, so I decided to give them a demo in my system.  For USA-based members, Atelier 13 Audio has a great demo program for many of the LessLoss cables, including the Firewall for Loudspeakers.  Constantin, the owner of Atelier 13 was great to work with: https://www.atelier13-usa.com/

 

I don't know what is in the water as of late, but almost all of the different products and tweaks I have been trying over the last 6 months have been making a real impact in my system, whereas before that over the last few years, I had lots of hit and miss purchases, or items where I could not be certain if I heard any difference.  The Firewall for Loudspeakers falls into the "very audible" tweak category.  This is like buying a different amp or loudspeaker.  The effect in my system was to add lots of body and dimension to the music.  Instruments and vocals have a real weight to them which makes it seem like they are in your room.  This is across the board.  The other thing is, there is no diminution of detail or clarity, which is nice (in fact, clarity increased to some degree).

 

If your system needs more body and a fuller tone, you might want to consider giving the Firewall for Loudspeakers a try.  One final item to note- if you like the highlighting of leading edge transients, and a crispy, speedy sound, this product does not provide that and you might find the sound heading in the wrong direction (let's say you like electronic music for example) and for that reason I did not purchase them.  However, if you listen to lots of acoustic music and vocals, you might really enjoy what this product brings to the table and if that type of music represented a larger part of my music collection, I would definitely have purchased this product.  

 

 

 

Here are a couple iphone pics I took:

 

 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

What does it do?

[JoeWhip]

If it makes some types of music sound better to you and others worse, what is the point? Doesn’t seem to me that it is adding to fidelity and is just a tone control.

[Kal Rubinson]

21 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

If it makes some types of music sound better to you and others worse, what is the point?

Yes, what is the point to its existence?  A traditional tone control makes a targeted and definable change.  

[Graviton]

It would be good to know the exact mechanism of its operation and some proof from lab results that something positive has been achieved in comparison to similar products.

[Blake]

I don't know the mechanisms at play here, I can only describe what it did to the sound in my system.  You could call it a tone control, but after listening to them, I would say it isn't a tone control in the traditional sense.  For example it isn't like the treble adjust knob I had on my Revel Ultima Gems for example.

 

What I found is, it spot lights or heightens the impression of fullness or body, but there was some trade off depending on the music I listened to.  I consistently preferred them in the system when listening to acoustic music, but I also consistently preferred having them removed with electronic music. 

 

If your system sounds a bit deficient in terms of body and you want to increase that aspect (i.e. injecting a bit of Harbeth-type sound), or you listen mostly to acoustic and vocal music and you are curious, this is a device you might want to try and listen with your own ears and draw your own opinions.

 

Our hobby is full of sonic trade-offs and really is a balancing act.  This product is just a tool one can use to make final adjustments according to sonic preferences and preferred music genres.    

 

 

[botrytis]

Can it be any different that what Transparent Audio does with their cables? If so, no thank you.

[fas42]

The description by @Blake strongly suggests that they attenuate high frequency, above audio, noise that exists on the conductors - from whatever cause. Which is normally a good thing, because this type of noise frequently degrades the SQ - better acoustic and vocal tonality is the giveaway that its impact might be beneficial, on some systems.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

21 hours ago, Blake said:

If your system needs more body and a fuller tone, you might want to consider giving the Firewall for Loudspeakers a try.  One final item to note- if you like the highlighting of leading edge transients, and a crispy, speedy sound, this product does not provide that and you might find the sound heading in the wrong direction

 

This to me shouts coloration aka tone control. The clue is the gravitation to some forms of music over another.

 

There is nothing new about "tuning" one's system using cables or tweaking to produce a comfortable sound. But, if cables like components are transparent, they should not leave a signature and should not improve or boost one area at expense of another. If there was an overall benefit across the board such as from say, removal of noise, then all areas of performance should improve, or at least there should be a noticeable improvement in one area with no degradation in any other areas.

[Kal Rubinson]

Same old, same old.

[Blake]

55 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

There is nothing new about "tuning" one's system using cables or tweaking to produce a comfortable sound. But, if cables like components are transparent, they should not leave a signature and should not improve or boost one area at expense of another. 

 

Agreed.  This is not a transparent audio product as it does impart a change to the sound.  To be very clear, this product won't have universal appeal.  

 

    

[fas42]

22 hours ago, Blake said:

 The Firewall for Loudspeakers falls into the "very audible" tweak category.  This is like buying a different amp or loudspeaker.  The effect in my system was to add lots of body and dimension to the music.  Instruments and vocals have a real weight to them which makes it seem like they are in your room.  This is across the board.  The other thing is, there is no diminution of detail or clarity, which is nice (in fact, clarity increased to some degree).

 

Ummm, this is precisely what I look for when optimising a system - this tells me I'm getting closer to the intrinsic sound of the recording. "Highlighting of leading edge transients, and a crispy, speedy sound" I would put in the category of adding a signature sound to a system, or tonal twiddling - it certainly isn't anything I would call, transparency.

[Graviton]

Looks to be a glorified four-figure tone control adding distortion. These audiophile manufacturers are getting desperate; they’ll be selling rose tinted spectacles outside art galleries next. 

[botrytis]

On 8/21/2020 at 8:01 PM, Blake said:

 

Agreed.  This is not a transparent audio product as it does impart a change to the sound.  To be very clear, this product won't have universal appeal.  

 

    

 

I have heard systems with and w/o Transparent cables and that was one thing they weren't to me Transparent, as they always changed the sound, which to me is not what cables should do. Almost every time the change was not good.

[andrewinukm]

Blake, thanks for sharing your impression on the Firewalls for Speakers. I love play around with tweaks.

 

Based on what you said, it sounded very much like how Nelson Pass describes various phases of 2nd harmonic distortion:

"[...] from listening tests we learn that there is a tendency to interpret negative phase 2nd as giving a deeper soundstage and improved localization than otherwise. Positive phase seems to put the instruments and vocals closer and a little more in-your-face with enhanced detail."

(https://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/the-pass-h2-harmonic-generator/)

 

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say it adds a smidgen of harmonics to the sound. If that's the case, does the effect sound similar to a tube preamp or Pass Labs amps?

 

I wonder if anyone would actually be curious enough to measure an amp's output with-vs-without the Firewalls. It'll be interesting to see if it's harmonic distortion or something else (if any).

[Blake]

@andrewinukm

 

I don't have any experience with Pass Labs, but I have quite a bit of experience with various tube-based components and have rolled lots and lots of NOS tubes of different tube types and manufacturers over the years. 

 

I would say the sonic impact of the Firewall for Loudspeakers was actually similar to adding a tube-like quality based on my listening.  This is a sonic impact that many might enjoy.

 

On an unrelated note, I just want to add that IMO no component or cable is 100% transparent (and we would have no way of knowing if it was 100% transparent), they all color the sound.  All we can do is make subjective guesses at what sounds "more or less transparent" as compared to another component or cable.   

 

We just mix and match to find the sonic balance that works for us.

 

 

[SoundOfMusic]

On 8/22/2020 at 1:37 AM, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

But, if cables like components are transparent, they should not leave a signature and should not improve or boost one area at expense of another.

Hello! Just wondering if you did ever find such a product?
SOM

[Vincent des Champs]

Funny to read: so many opinions based on one person’s demo experience in one specific system. No other ‘active users’ of this glorious piece of equipment around here?

 

For me, from the first moment I hooked these tails into my system, a ‘holy moly’ experience. Overtime I will share my findings if this thread is coming to live atleast.

 

Let’s wait and see.

[Ben-M]

I also have this 'glorious piece of equipment', but my system is in shambles, so no listening experience with them yet. 

 

And yes, the other responses are hilarious so far. Thanks to the OP for creating a thread about these, I haven't seen much talk (though I have also never gone looking for any) about them since I bought the pigtails 1-2 years ago. 

[cjf]

Are the Users of this product attempting to "Fix" some existing noise problem they have?

 

I cant imagine why you would put such a device inline of such a critical connection point unless there was some existing noise issue you were trying to correct/fix. In that case, sure try it out but short of that I would take a hard pass on it myself.

 

But, I can say that if this product existed about 5yrs ago I might have tried it myself between several Class D amps I used to own and my current speakers. The speakers would basically puke out noise when connected to Class D amps. They refused to get along with each other and it would be interesting to know if a product like this would have been able to kill the noises I was hearing. I'll never know at this point but FWIW, certain models of MIT cables could get very close to resolving my issue at the time. (ie...a box Inline with stuff in it).

 

 

[Vincent des Champs]

6 hours ago, Ben-M said:

but my system is in shambles

Put your system back together and join the conversation ;-) We need more individual experiences to have a fair discussion on the product.

[Vincent des Champs]

5 hours ago, cjf said:

Are the Users of this product attempting to "Fix" some existing noise problem they have?

I think it would be honest to say that everybody has a "noise problem" on a certain degree, right? To minimize these problems (timing issues/ noise) is what this hobby is all about.. 

 

5 hours ago, cjf said:

But, I can say that if this product existed about 5yrs ago I might have tried it myself between several Class D amps I used to own and my current speakers.

I am using both a Class A (Valvet) and Class D amp (NuPrime AMG STA dual mono) and in both situation the firewalls do their magical tricks - I dont think it is fair to compare Class D amps from 5 yrs back to what is achieved with Class D today, but that's a different story... My modest setup is tweaked for getting the "problems" outof the way - but still I easilly can hear improvements.

 

I cannot assess the Firewall's internals neither their specific working, but what I do trust are my ears. Some may say it flavours the sound and that might be true, but in my situation (a highly neutral and uncoloured setup) it just sounds right! I can totally echo the experiences as mentioned in the 6moons review (https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/lessloss16/3/ - 2nd paragraph) and I think it is worth mentioning that on this forum.

 

Since I have installed the firewalls only for one day, lots of things can change. I will report back my findings.

 

5 hours ago, cjf said:

certain models of MIT cables could get very close to resolving my issue at the time

My neighbour has installed these inline boxes and a comparison would be nice to make at some point.

 

[Ben-M]

On 3/18/2022 at 2:35 PM, Vincent des Champs said:

Put your system back together and join the conversation ;-) We need more individual experiences to have a fair discussion on the product.

Man, I've been running on fumes and pipe dreams for like 5-6 years now, I hope it does all make it back together and out of the shambles by the end of this year! It has been a damn long trip and I wish I had a lot of time and money back. But such is life. 

 

I'm looking at new speakers right now, and I have a few other pieces of gear that I want to try. It's a merky area, but there are some gems here and there, maybe these Firewall for Loudspeakers will lbe one of them. And if they aren't for the better in my system, then onto the chopping block they go. 

 

I wonder which forum the owners of these likely congregate on? Maybe Whatsbestforum or Audiogon? Those are a bit more speaker and amp oriented?

[bodiebill]

I must say that I was somewhat skeptical when @Vincent des Champsproposed to hookup his LessLoss Firewalls to my TAD ME1 speakers. After all I had recently made big strides to lower the noise floor and open up the sound stage using a great DDC, external clocking and Diretta, and it was my intent not to spend any money on new components any time soon.

 

When the four barrels with banana terminations arrived I thought they might not be the ideal built for my bi-wiring setup as I am using Fidelium jumpers, which with their symmetrical design only accept a spade halfway between the binding posts. So I got out the TAD stock jumpers en we inserted the lelofiwa's to the top binding posts. I thought I could hear some difference, but it was not major and it could have been attributable to expectation bias.

 

However, after putting back the Fidelium 'jumpers', we listened to various tracks with and without and the improvement with the lelofiwa's was striking. The increased front-back image depth and sense of 'being there' naturalness was quite amazing. We stopped swapping, wanting only to listen with the barrels in the chain, and I was lucky to find a second-hand pair, which I ordered.

 

I am at a loss as to how these work but they do.

[Qhwoeprktiyns]

Hard to keep a really open mind sometimes in this hobby when you see this kind of thing. Reading the manufacturer's web site, I see that they claim they use special copper.

 

https://www.lessloss.com/firewall-module-p-216.html

 

"In standard extrusion processes, the copper undergoes many forces until the desired size is achieved. Pictured at the top of the image below, you can see a standard copper wire as extruded using industrial methods. Next to this standard copper wire, you can see our copper that we use in the Firewall for Loudspeakers. It is a completely different beast. This is created in house through proprietary means."

 

Knowing what type of industrial equipment is used to make copper wire, I am really skeptical that they are making anything in house, and even sourcing copper wire to their own specifications for making these little gadgets seems highly unlikely, but who knows... The picture does not really tell anything as they are showing polished copper, ok.

 

 

The rest of the technical descriptions on the webiste screams of snake oil :) 

This is the type of thing that makes this hobby unique and fun !