Misleading Measurements

[fas42]

Misleading? ... Just saw the Stereophile review of the NAD M33, and the measurements are pretty ordinary, in the distortion area of things - https://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-masters-series-m33-streaming-integrated-amplifier-measurements. That is, compared to what Purifi is able to show as being the capability of its Class D modules as regards distortion, "when measured the right way", 😉.

 

So, who is right? Both of course ... so, why do measurements matter, 🙂? It might make you feel good, to know that bits of the whole can do brilliant stuff - but in the real world, implementation is everything ... unless extreme attention to detail is part of the deal, all the theoretical, measurable performance counts for nothing - in terms of what reaches your ears, 🙂.

[Confused]

16 hours ago, fas42 said:

Misleading? ... Just saw the Stereophile review of the NAD M33, and the measurements are pretty ordinary, in the distortion area of things - https://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-masters-series-m33-streaming-integrated-amplifier-measurements. That is, compared to what Purifi is able to show as being the capability of its Class D modules as regards distortion, "when measured the right way", 😉.

 

Another point to consider, the Stereophile measurements are of an integrated amplifier, not just an amp module.  So the volume control is included in the measurements via the analogue inputs, and the DAC also for the digital inputs.

 

For me, the Stereophile measured distortion measurements look fine, I would not expect any audible distortions based on the measurements provided.

[fas42]

3 hours ago, Confused said:

 

Another point to consider, the Stereophile measurements are of an integrated amplifier, not just an amp module.  So the volume control is included in the measurements via the analogue inputs, and the DAC also for the digital inputs.

 

For me, the Stereophile measured distortion measurements look fine, I would not expect any audible distortions based on the measurements provided.

 

Yes, of course that's how it works - the sound of a rig is always the sound of the worst performing parts of the whole; the ideal for many people is that the playback chain is completely "transparent" - otherwise, you're just seasoning a soup, 😉.

 

But I mention it in the context of measurements "being misleading" - some people will think that some magic occurs, that having an extremely low measuring distortion device in there transfers its specialness to everything else ... well, it may be where the crucial bottleneck that held back the SQ before was, and then you do win - but it's never a guarantee, 🙂.

 

NAD are bringing out a conventional separates power amp, using the Purifi modules; will be interesting whether they can deliver the promised performance there.

[992Sam]

Late to the thread, and been reading thru it with interest, but add me to the camp of those who feel Amir and his site have an agenda, and are completely anti-audiophile ..  Seems like anyone going on there trying to disagree finds himself banned at some point... so the site is essentially a preaching to the choir echo chamber for those who essentially equate an iPhone DAC with a hi-fi DAC just because it measures the same in certain parameters. 

[ASRMichael]

14 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

Late to the thread, and been reading thru it with interest, but add me to the camp of those who feel Amir and his site have an agenda, and are completely anti-audiophile ..  Seems like anyone going on there trying to disagree finds himself banned at some point... so the site is essentially a preaching to the choir echo chamber for those who essentially equate an iPhone DAC with a hi-fi DAC just because it measures the same in certain parameters. 

Ouch!!! Sure that will respark this thread! 

[fas42]

To me, the divide is between those who want to be certain that they have a handle on everything; and those that know they don't. People who need to feel that they can have full control over what guarantees "correct" sound will gravitate to the ASR site, because it backs them up in that belief - merely apply the "correct" tools, measuring devices, and out pops perfect SQ - and all is sunny in the world, 🙄.

 

The majority of audio enthusiasts know that the real world doesn't work that way ... full understanding of what needs to be done to ensure the best standard of subjectively satisfying replay just doesn't exist - floundering around until an acceptable standard, for them, is achieved is generally how it's done. Which for the ASR crowd is completely unacceptable.

[pkane2001]

4 minutes ago, fas42 said:

To me, the divide is between those who want to be certain that they have a handle on everything; and those that know they don't. People who need to feel that they can have full control over what guarantees "correct" sound will gravitate to the ASR site, because it backs them up in that belief - merely apply the "correct" tools, measuring devices, and out pops perfect SQ - and all is sunny in the world, 🙄.

 

The majority of audio enthusiasts know that the real world doesn't work that way ... full understanding of what needs to be done to ensure the best standard of subjectively satisfying replay just doesn't exist - floundering around until an acceptable standard, for them, is achieved is generally how it's done. Which for the ASR crowd is completely unacceptable.

 

As I see it, the divide is between those who want to believe and those who want to know. And then, there's also Frank ;)

 

[sandyk]

35 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

As I see it, the divide is between those who want to believe and those who want to know.

And those that think they know.

[992Sam]

2 hours ago, ASRMichael said:

Ouch!!! Sure that will respark this thread! 

 

why not?  With Covid, and it being a holiday evening, I'm bored and this thread has been entertaining to say the least...    

 

Would be nice to see a true study done between what is measurable in terms of audio quality and what is psychological and subjective....  I also have to wonder if a lot of the 2nd, 4th and odd order harmonics that are masked / amplified by certain setups in power supply, cable shielding, and other EMF/RF factors aren't more easily heard by some than others and thus the endless debate over measurement vs how it sounds?

[fas42]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

As I see it, the divide is between those who want to believe and those who want to know. And then, there's also Frank ;)

 

 

Ah, Frank sees two plots of ground on either end of the field; one heavily populated with those who believe and who are not particularly interested in knowing, and the other with a large group who scorn those that believe - in the middle is a largely empty area, where he sits and is very much lacking in company, for those who believe what their ears tell them, and also want to know. Here, the understanding that one has to widen one's thinking, and not dismiss new or different concepts because they don't immediately appeal, is important - such understanding is not popular, and generally gets the thumbs down response, 😜.

[fas42]

52 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

 

why not?  With Covid, and it being a holiday evening, I'm bored and this thread has been entertaining to say the least...    

 

Would be nice to see a true study done between what is measurable in terms of audio quality and what is psychological and subjective....  I also have to wonder if a lot of the 2nd, 4th and odd order harmonics that are masked / amplified by certain setups in power supply, cable shielding, and other EMF/RF factors aren't more easily heard by some than others and thus the endless debate over measurement vs how it sounds?

 

It's really very easy ... if it's trivially obvious when you hear music coming from somewhere, that it's an audio system - then the distortion is audible. When the distortion and misbehaviour that matters is inaudible, then all the qualities that audio people chase will be there in abundance - no-one really knows how to measure one state versus the other; hence the ongoing kerfuffling ....

[kumakuma]

16 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Ah, Frank sees two plots of ground on either end of the field; one heavily populated with those who believe and who are not particularly interested in knowing, and the other with a large group who scorn those that believe - in the middle is a largely empty area, where he sits and is very much lacking in company, for those who believe what their ears tell them, and also want to know. Here, the understanding that one has to widen one's thinking, and not dismiss new or different concepts because they don't immediately appeal, is important - such understanding is not popular, and generally gets the thumbs down response, 😜.

 

[992Sam]

19 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

It's really very easy ... if it's trivially obvious when you hear music coming from somewhere, that it's an audio system - then the distortion is audible. When the distortion and misbehaviour that matters is inaudible, then all the qualities that audio people chase will be there in abundance - no-one really knows how to measure one state versus the other; hence the ongoing kerfuffling ....

 

Personally I like to look at things thru extreme examples sometimes to better understand them...

 

For example, is there intrinsically better sound from a piece of audio equipment that is made of the highest grade transistors, capacitors, resisters, transformers, and other components vs a similarity engineered piece of equipment, only using the lowest grade components available?    OR.. better yet... if were replaced all of the wire in our high fi systems with lamp chord, and those black (rend and white ended) RCA cables that came with the $99 DVD player that CostCo sells...   would our systems sound then same?  Especially under load?

 

While I've never tried this experiment directly, it's almost self evident that as with most things in life... you get what you pay for, and that stuff that measures well, will usually work well, but not always... as those measurements might not be looking at the entire picture (or sound as the case might be).

[opus101]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

And those that think they know.

 

No, he's already mentioned them - they're the ones who want to believe.

[fas42]

48 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

 

For example, is there intrinsically better sound from a piece of audio equipment that is made of the highest grade transistors, capacitors, resisters, transformers, and other components vs a similarity engineered piece of equipment, only using the lowest grade components available?    

 

Yes, it will be of better standard - but if the unit using the low cost components is built with the same care then subjectively it will be highly satisfactory, for the money.

 

Quote

OR.. better yet... if were replaced all of the wire in our high fi systems with lamp chord, and those black (rend and white ended) RCA cables that came with the $99 DVD player that CostCo sells...   would our systems sound then same?  Especially under load?

 

No ... most certainly not. Introducing, deliberately, a distinctly weak link will mean that the SQ is dominated by that weakness - a rough guide should be that the qualities everywhere in the system are comparable.

 

Quote

 

While I've never tried this experiment directly, it's almost self evident that as with most things in life... you get what you pay for, and that stuff that measures well, will usually work well, but not always... as those measurements might not be looking at the entire picture (or sound as the case might be).

 

In audio, the entire picture is never  looked at. Which is why million dollar systems can sound bloody awful! ... 🤪

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

In audio, the entire picture is never  looked at. Which is why million dollar systems can sound bloody awful! ... 🤪

How would you know Frank ? 

You would probably need to go to Kuwait or somewhere to see those in solid gold cases, then pay an exorbitant price  to hear them !

[pkane2001]

1 hour ago, opus101 said:

 

No, he's already mentioned them - they're the ones who want to believe.

 

Beliefs (and believers) come in all shapes and sizes.

[danadam]

7 hours ago, 992Sam said:

Seems like anyone going on there trying to disagree finds himself banned at some point

Can you give a few examples?

[992Sam]

Just now, danadam said:

Can you give a few examples?

no, just came across a lot of threads where if the guy sticks his neck out against the prevailing crowd.... the words "Banned" appear under their username. 👍

[danadam]

10 minutes ago, 992Sam said:

no

I see. So we can't check if they "sticked their neck out" in a similar manner as wbh did. Ok. A bit sad to see such accusations without some more substance behind them.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, danadam said:

Can you give a few examples?

 

Myself is a good example - I was banned in a very polite, almost apologetic way, because I was swimming against the stream - only those who clearly have the same agenda as the majority are tolerated indefinitely ... too disruptive to the general "vibe" of the place doesn't go down well ... 😉.

[fas42]

3 hours ago, sandyk said:

How would you know Frank ? 

You would probably need to go to Kuwait or somewhere to see those in solid gold cases, then pay an exorbitant price  to hear them !

 

Try going to YouTube, and type in "million dollar audio system" in its search - you'll find such are in plentiful supply; I saw one reference to $6,000,000 - not much gold around them, 😉.

[992Sam]

7 hours ago, danadam said:

I see. So we can't check if they "sticked their neck out" in a similar manner as wbh did. Ok. A bit sad to see such accusations without some more substance behind them.

 

look man, I know what I saw.... just go find the PS Audio DirectStream DAC review thread and you'll find at least 3 banned users.. all of them dared try to defend the DAC they felt sounded good against the measurement nazis in that thread including Amir.   I saw the same all over the board while lurking... 

[SoundAndMotion]

2 hours ago, 992Sam said:

 

look man, I know what I saw.... just go find the PS Audio DirectStream DAC review thread and you'll find at least 3 banned users.. all of them dared try to defend the DAC they felt sounded good against the measurement nazis in that thread including Amir.   I saw the same all over the board while lurking... 

hey man, @danadam wasn't calling you a liar... he just asked for examples. Some people, like me, don't automatically believe everything they read on the internet, especially interpretations of "what happened". It's nice to interpret for oneself.

 

Disclaimer:I don't know how to be a good moderator for internet forums. I notice on several forums, including this one, that some people are banned quickly after what I would consider minor infractions (although there could be a backstory I don't know), while other repeat-rule-violators are tolerated.

 

That said, I went to look at the PS Audio DAC thread, as you suggested. I found:
- With over 1500 posts, I wasn't willing to look at all of them. I perused here and there (beginning, middle, end of thread) and didn't see anyone labelled "Banned", but I found 2 users who were banned.
- One was a "Major Contributor" with over 4000 posts who seemed to be banned around February. I could not figure out why he was banned, but it was clear he was a fan of measurements, but also sometimes a bit abrasive.
- The other was you. You know why, and the reason you were banned was *not* an unwillingness to toe the pro-measurement line. People here have been banned for the same reason you were banned there.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, SoundAndMotion said:

I notice on several forums, including this one, that some people are banned quickly after what I would consider minor infractions

Examples please.